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Some facts about "Church and State" and why the ACLU and liberals are wrong.

Liberty

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1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.
 
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Photonic

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1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.

Not so fast there buddy, laws are interpreted as intended. Perhaps you should READ the Establishment Clauses history before jumping the gun to a post like this.

Everson v. Board of Education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cantwell v. Connecticut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Establishment Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Establishment Clause exists because religious people wanted it to exist. It's there to protect your religion from harming others and vice versa. It has been established that neither the state nor the federal government may make laws or tax for the purposes of religion.
 
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Liberty

Liberty

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Read the Establishment Clause. Specifically the "Congress shall make no law..." So if it violated that clause then what law did Congress make that ESTABLISHED a religion?
 

Photonic

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Read the Establishment Clause. Specifically the "Congress shall make no law..." So if it violated that clause then what law did Congress make that ESTABLISHED a religion?

I have read it, you apparently have not. I've also read extensively into the court cases it's been applied too. In ALL decisions it has been upheld as a complete separation between Church and State.


God

It has often been seen on the Internet that to find God in the Constitution, all one has to do is read it, and see how often the Framers used the words "God," or "Creator," "Jesus," or "Lord." Except for one notable instance, however, none of these words ever appears in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments. The notable exception is found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts. This lack of any these words does not mean that the Framers were not spiritual people, any more than the use of the word Lord means that they were. What this lack of these words is expositive of is not a love for or disdain for religion, but the feeling that the new government should not involve itself in matters of religion. In fact, the original Constitution bars any religious test to hold any federal office in the United States.
 
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Liberty

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Fisher Ames, Representative of Massachusetts of the first Congress provided the actual WORDING of the establishment clause and the first amendment. He is quoted as saying:

"Why... should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Why do you believe some bullshit court ruling nearly 200 years after the fact, rather then the VERY WORDS of the man who wrote it? The court has bastardized original intent.
 
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bobcollum

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They used to drain their blood when ill as well, so maybe following their examples isn't the most prudent exercise.
 

Photonic

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Fisher Ames provided the actual WORDING of the establishment clause and the first amendment. He is quoted as saying:

"Why... should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Why do you believe some bullshit court ruling nearly 200 years after the fact, rather then the VERY WORDS of the man who wrote it? The court has bastardized original intent.

Not sure why are are arguing against it. It was established by religious people to protect them from the state. Learn history.
 
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Liberty

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Fisher Ames provided the actual WORDING of the establishment clause and the first amendment. He is quoted as saying:

"Why... should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Why do you believe some bullshit court ruling nearly 200 years after the fact, rather then the VERY WORDS of the man who wrote it? The court has bastardized original intent.

Not sure why are are arguing against it. It was established by religious people to protect them from the state. Learn history.

all of the PRIMARY sources back up my argument. find me one PRIMARY source that backs up yours. please. the clause only prohibits congress and the federal government from creating a law that establishes state religion. It does not mean you can't talk about God in schools, it does not mean you can't invoke prayer on public property, etc. If it is, show the primary source, not some secondary "interpretation."
 
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Truthmatters

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James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


"Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."


The father of our constitution says its in the constitution
 
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Liberty

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Okay...so let's institute Sharia Law...

:rolleyes:

Seriously though...what exactly are you advocating for?

How the hell did you come to that conclusion? I am AGAINST the establishment of religion by law that is the whole point...but that is NOT what the ACLU and liberals are for. They are for DESTROYING anything resembling religion in ALL public capacities and bastardizing and "interpreting" the constitution in a manner that will achieve these ends which is NOT, by words of the very people who WROTE these phrases, clauses, and documents, how it was intended.
 
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Liberty

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James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


"Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."


The father of our constitution says its in the constitution

That case was asking the government to actually incorporate a church through appropriation via LAW, thus violates the first amendment. Madison was right. No disagreement there at all. Now TM, can you explain why perhaps the man who authored the establishment clause thought Bibles should be used to teach reading in schools? Seems kind of contradictory, no?
 
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Photonic

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Fisher Ames provided the actual WORDING of the establishment clause and the first amendment. He is quoted as saying:

"Why... should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

Why do you believe some bullshit court ruling nearly 200 years after the fact, rather then the VERY WORDS of the man who wrote it? The court has bastardized original intent.

Not sure why are are arguing against it. It was established by religious people to protect them from the state. Learn history.

all of the PRIMARY sources back up my argument. find me one PRIMARY source that backs up yours. please. the clause only prohibits congress and the federal government from creating a law that establishes state religion. It does not mean you can't talk about God in schools, it does not mean you can't invoke prayer on public property, etc. If it is, show the primary source, not some secondary "interpretation."

The Supreme court is hardly a secondary interpretation fool.

But I never said that it said that you can't talk about god or pray in public. Obviously that is allowed. A teacher invoking God in anything other than education on a subject in a classroom is NOT protected, as the teacher is paid to educate, not proselytize.
 
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Liberty

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Not sure why are are arguing against it. It was established by religious people to protect them from the state. Learn history.

all of the PRIMARY sources back up my argument. find me one PRIMARY source that backs up yours. please. the clause only prohibits congress and the federal government from creating a law that establishes state religion. It does not mean you can't talk about God in schools, it does not mean you can't invoke prayer on public property, etc. If it is, show the primary source, not some secondary "interpretation."

The Supreme court is hardly a secondary interpretation fool.

But I never said that it said that you can't talk about god or pray in public. Obviously that is allowed. A teacher invoking God in anything other than education on a subject in a classroom is NOT protected, as the teacher is paid to educate, not proselytize.

Fool? Says the one that can't give a single primary source to backup your argument. :)
 

Photonic

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all of the PRIMARY sources back up my argument. find me one PRIMARY source that backs up yours. please. the clause only prohibits congress and the federal government from creating a law that establishes state religion. It does not mean you can't talk about God in schools, it does not mean you can't invoke prayer on public property, etc. If it is, show the primary source, not some secondary "interpretation."

The Supreme court is hardly a secondary interpretation fool.

But I never said that it said that you can't talk about god or pray in public. Obviously that is allowed. A teacher invoking God in anything other than education on a subject in a classroom is NOT protected, as the teacher is paid to educate, not proselytize.

Fool? Says the one that can't give a single primary source to backup your argument. :)

Do you even know what my argument IS?
 

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Some facts about "Church and State"


Both are worshiped by segments of our population.
 
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Liberty

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Photonic, if you are right then you should be able to find at least one signer of the Constitution or founding figure that proclaimed that the Bible should stay out of schools for example. Anything to that effect.
 

auditor0007

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1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.

On this issue, I agree. The separation of Church and State thing has been taken much too far. I do not believe it was the intention of our founding Fathers to take God out of everything. If that was their intention, then "In God We Trust" would not be emblazoned on our currency.
 

Photonic

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Photonic, if you are right then you should be able to find at least one signer of the Constitution or founding figure that proclaimed that the Bible should stay out of schools for example. Anything to that effect.

Public Schools are required to exist by federal law. You put a bible in a school, you violate the first amendment immediately. Have fun proving me wrong.

Private schools, anything goes.
 

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