Some facts about "Church and State" and why the ACLU and liberals are wrong.

[JamesInFlorida]

While I think politicians shouldn't have to keep their religion to themselves, saying the bible should be taught in school is a completely separate issue.

I would argue that endorsing one religion's scriptures over another's is breaking the boundary between church and state-and is the government endorsing a specific religious scripture. If your law forces a child to attend school-then force that child to read scriptures of just one of the many religious belief systems-again that's endorsing that religion.

Now I have no problem with public schools having class on religions (that are optional), in the sense that you learn about many different religions (one of the best classes I took in high school).

I believe this is the quote you were referring to earlier, the bold parts back up my statements, and it's a prime source, as you wanted.

When he says SOLELY between man and his God-that's what he means. Not Solely, man and school.


PS-and for the record I think we all know Jefferson wasn't the most consistent of the founding fathers. For somebody so against big government-he had no problem increasing the size of the nation more than any other president to date.



"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. "

-Thomas Jefferson

 

[Photonic]

1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.

On this issue, I agree. The separation of Church and State thing has been taken much too far. I do not believe it was the intention of our founding Fathers to take God out of everything. If that was their intention, then "In God We Trust" would not be emblazoned on our currency.

In God We Trust was added over 200 years after, but according to his logic it's a "bullshit secondary interpretation"

 

[Liberty]

Photonic, if you are right then you should be able to find at least one signer of the Constitution or founding figure that proclaimed that the Bible should stay out of schools for example. Anything to that effect.

Public Schools are required to exist by federal law. You put a bible in a school, you violate the first amendment immediately. Have fun proving me wrong.

Private schools, anything goes.

Ok so QUOTE a founding figure at the time of the country's birth to back up your claim that a bible in public school is wrong. That's all I am asking, is that unreasonable? If it's true then prove it.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

1. The US Constitution when dated includes the phrase: "In the year of our Lord"
2. The US Constitution does not say anything against prohibiting religion in politics anywhere.
3. Thomas Jefferson WHILE serving as President was the Super Intendent of the DC Schools and included Bible reading in the cirriculum(The same man that wrote the letter that first used the phrase "Church and State")
4. ALL State Constitutions in the preamble or somewhere within thank God at some point for our civil liberties and freedom, a REQUIREMENT for statehood signed into law by George Washington.
5. In 1983 the Senate DEMOCRATS passed a bill recognizing the year as the year of the Bible. Reagan signed it.

There's more examples but there's a few. The first amendment only prohibits the CREATION of a STATE RELIGION via a law.

On this issue, I agree. The separation of Church and State thing has been taken much too far. I do not believe it was the intention of our founding Fathers to take God out of everything. If that was their intention, then "In God We Trust" would not be emblazoned on our currency.

The founding fathers didn't put "In God We Trust" on our currency.........

 

[Photonic]

Photonic, if you are right then you should be able to find at least one signer of the Constitution or founding figure that proclaimed that the Bible should stay out of schools for example. Anything to that effect.

Public Schools are required to exist by federal law. You put a bible in a school, you violate the first amendment immediately. Have fun proving me wrong.

Private schools, anything goes.

Ok so QUOTE a founding figure at the time of the country's birth to back up your claim that a bible in public school is wrong. That's all I am asking, is that unreasonable? If it's true then prove it.

So if a founding father didn't say it, it doesn't exist. Have fun in your blind little world. Sorry I didn't realize they were infallible Gods.

 

[Liberty]

Public Schools are required to exist by federal law. You put a bible in a school, you violate the first amendment immediately. Have fun proving me wrong.

Private schools, anything goes.

Ok so QUOTE a founding figure at the time of the country's birth to back up your claim that a bible in public school is wrong. That's all I am asking, is that unreasonable? If it's true then prove it.

So if a founding father didn't say it, it doesn't exist. Have fun in your blind little world. Sorry I didn't realize they were infallible Gods.

Excuse me? I am simply trying to understand our history. If you can't back up your argument in any legitimate scholarly way then start the ad hominems now. But as I see it, I believe I have won the argument as I have George Washington, Jefferson, and the author of the wording of the establishment clause, Fisher Ames backing me up, along with every single State Constitution which credits God FLAT OUT for the liberties and natural rights provided to the citizens of the USA.

So, good try. Carry on, etc.

Keep in mind that if you were right, and God doesn't belong in any Christian capacity in government then how can you explain the State Constitutions across this country which some (such as Virginia) actually mention Christianity.


Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the
favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
Constitution ..

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to
Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of Universe .

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates
of
their consciences .

Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to
Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this
Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
Guidance . establish this Constitution

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ..

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath
so
long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
endeavors
.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to
Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
government
..

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful
hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful
to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts,
acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of
the
Universe...in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly
imploring His
direction ...

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful
to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota,
grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to
perpetuate
its
blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention
assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ..
establish this Constitution ..

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God
for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom .. establish this Constitution

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom . establish this Constitution ..

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural
and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own
conscience .

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey,
grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so
long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our
endeavors
.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ..

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful
to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings .

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina,
grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil,
political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon
Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our
common
..

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to
secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure
in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
their consciences .

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island
grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath
so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South
Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to
Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties . establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible
right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their
conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging,
with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we
establish this Constitution .

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the
individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual
duty
of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each
other
...

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington,
grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain
this
Constitution .

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty
God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to
God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this
Constitution .

 

[Photonic]

Ok so QUOTE a founding figure at the time of the country's birth to back up your claim that a bible in public school is wrong. That's all I am asking, is that unreasonable? If it's true then prove it.

So if a founding father didn't say it, it doesn't exist. Have fun in your blind little world. Sorry I didn't realize they were infallible Gods.

Excuse me? I am simply trying to understand our history. If you can't back up your argument in any legitimate scholarly way then start the ad hominems now. But as I see it, I believe I have won the argument as I have George Washington, Jefferson, and the author of the wording of the establishment clause, Fisher Ames backing me up, along with every single State Constitution which credits God FLAT OUT for the liberties and natural rights provided to the citizens of the USA.

So, good try. Carry on, etc.

Just because you are ignorant of the subject and refuse to accept the other argument doesn't mean you win. That just means you're blind. I'm not wasting my time on you any further because you've made up your mind and you won't accept anything else.

 

[Liberty]

Public Schools are required to exist by federal law. You put a bible in a school, you violate the first amendment immediately. Have fun proving me wrong.

Private schools, anything goes.

Ok so QUOTE a founding figure at the time of the country's birth to back up your claim that a bible in public school is wrong. That's all I am asking, is that unreasonable? If it's true then prove it.

So if a founding father didn't say it, it doesn't exist. Have fun in your blind little world. Sorry I didn't realize they were infallible Gods.

Right, only the Supreme Court are infallible Gods.

 

[Liberty]

So if a founding father didn't say it, it doesn't exist. Have fun in your blind little world. Sorry I didn't realize they were infallible Gods.

Excuse me? I am simply trying to understand our history. If you can't back up your argument in any legitimate scholarly way then start the ad hominems now. But as I see it, I believe I have won the argument as I have George Washington, Jefferson, and the author of the wording of the establishment clause, Fisher Ames backing me up, along with every single State Constitution which credits God FLAT OUT for the liberties and natural rights provided to the citizens of the USA.

So, good try. Carry on, etc.

Just because you are ignorant of the subject and refuse to accept the other argument doesn't mean you win. That just means you're blind. I'm not wasting my time on you any further because you've made up your mind and you won't accept anything else.

If I am blind it's only because people like you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Excuse me? I am simply trying to understand our history. If you can't back up your argument in any legitimate scholarly way then start the ad hominems now. But as I see it, I believe I have won the argument as I have George Washington, Jefferson, and the author of the wording of the establishment clause, Fisher Ames backing me up, along with every single State Constitution which credits God FLAT OUT for the liberties and natural rights provided to the citizens of the USA.

So, good try. Carry on, etc.

Just because you are ignorant of the subject and refuse to accept the other argument doesn't mean you win. That just means you're blind. I'm not wasting my time on you any further because you've made up your mind and you won't accept anything else.

If I am blind it's only because people like you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

I like how you completely ignored the post I made. How is having schools preach one religion's scriptures over another's not endorsing one religion?

Do you think a Jewish kid should be forced to attend a public school, then be forced to listen to teachings about a book they don't believe in?

Would you support other religion's teachings to be taught in school-or just from the Bible?

 

[Truthmatters]

James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


"Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."


The father of our constitution says its in the constitution

The man who this country dubbed the Father of the constitution says it is right in the constitution.


GAME OVER

 

[Liberty]

Just because you are ignorant of the subject and refuse to accept the other argument doesn't mean you win. That just means you're blind. I'm not wasting my time on you any further because you've made up your mind and you won't accept anything else.

If I am blind it's only because people like you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

I like how you completely ignored the post I made. 1. How is having schools preach one religion's scriptures over another's not endorsing one religion?

2. Do you think a Jewish kid should be forced to attend a public school, then be forced to listen to teachings about a book they don't believe in?

3. Would you support other religion's teachings to be taught in school-or just from the Bible?

Sorry I must have missed it. I'll set your questions up by number.

1. I don't know, I am not trying to push my personal view on this topic I am simply trying to gain an understanding in what the founders intention was. And from all my reading of primary documents and quotes, letters, diaries, and whatnot it seems that using the Bible to teach kids how to read for example was perfectly fine.

2. It seems to me that back at the country's founding you could be any religion you want but it was encouraged that you be Christian. There was discrimination that cannot be denied, however which is unfortunate.

3. Personally? I don't think teaching through the Bible is a good idea. But like I said this is not about my beliefs, I want to know what is true about history and I am sick of secondary crap being jammed down my throat as fact. I want to hear the words from the mouth of someone who was there, in authority, and had a part to play. That is how I study history. I could give two shits about what some guy on a bench says 170 years later when it comes to understanding a specific time in history.

 

[Truthmatters]

I jsut showed you the truth

 

[Liberty]

James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


"Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."


The father of our constitution says its in the constitution

The man who this country dubbed the Father of the constitution says it is right in the constitution.


GAME OVER

I agreed with this, idiot. Read the thread.

 

[Liberty]

I jsut showed you the truth

And I agreed with you and James Madison on that specific case for reasons I outlined earlier in the thread. If you were literate you might be able to read it. With that said, that did not end the discussion because it did not address the main point of the thread which is why for example Fisher Ames who worded the first amendment said bibles should be used to teach children to read, and why Jefferson put Bible Studies into the DC public schools during his presidency and no one minded. Do you care to address any of these points or are you just going to keep on spewing stupid?

 

[Truthmatters]

Because bibles were the book most people had in their houses already

 

[clevergirl]

The facts are that the very first public schools were began by churches. In order to prevent Roman Catholic indoctrination in this mostly protestant nation, during the 19th century, laws were passed that forbade tax money to ever be used for "parochial" education. Dewey came along with his social progressive views and further put a wedge between religious education of any form and public coffers in the early 20th century.

I personally do not see a need to have prayer from any religion in public schools...then again I am against indoctrination of humanist values as well- "gay is okay". Could we just teach our children how to learn in addition to reading; writing; science; and maths?

Harvard, Yale and Princeton were founded as Seminaries FCOL. The reason they exist no longer as such, is due, to public money. Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.”

Now, as to vouchers and allowing parents to choose? I am all for that. If a parent chooses a religious school- that should be their prerogative. If they choose a strictly academic program-more power to them...and yes, if an alternative school that says "gay is okay" exists and parents want to send their kids there...go for it.

This attitude is what the Founders believed in...Freedom.

 

[rdean]

Just more right wingers trying to push a supernatural and mystical agenda. I wonder, who in their right mind falls for such nonsense, then I read posts here and think, "Oh, nevermind".

 

[Liberty]

The facts are that the very first public schools were began by churches. In order to prevent Roman Catholic indoctrination in this mostly protestant nation, during the 19th century, laws were passed that forbade tax money to ever be used for "parochial" education. Dewey came along with his social progressive views and further put a wedge between religious education of any form and public coffers in the early 20th century.

I personally do not see a need to have prayer from any religion in public schools...then again I am against indoctrination of humanist values as well- "gay is okay". Could we just teach our children how to learn in addition to reading; writing; science; and maths?

Harvard, Yale and Princeton were founded as Seminaries FCOL. The reason they exist no longer as such, is due, to public money. Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.”

Now, as to vouchers and allowing parents to choose? I am all for that. If a parent chooses a religious school- that should be their prerogative. If they choose a strictly academic program-more power to them...and yes, if an alternative school that says "gay is okay" exists and parents want to send their kids there...go for it.

This attitude is what the Founders believed in...Freedom.

An intelligent and illuminating post! Thanks!

 

[pete]

So if there is a separation of church and state why do they get so many damn tax breaks? Do you ever see a po' preacher no they look like pimps in nice cars and they live in nice homes ...