Sodom and Gomorrah

[logical4u]

This thread makes interesting reading.


Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. —Ezekiel 16:49-50


No mention of homosexuals or lesbians.

immoral sex = " did detestable things"

The destable things were rape and incest. I'm no longer discussing homosexuality with anyone for any reason.

Nice dodge. Are rape and incest "immoral sex"? It is a broad brush. It includes sex that has not been blessed by marriage (in the eyes of the Lord).

 

[JoeB131]

Then don't.

I don't, either.

So you no longer believe in the God of the Bible.

Because, honestly, he's a sociopath. Or as Richard Dawkins described him, "the most unpleasent character in the history of fiction."

Let's review, quickly- I'll just limit it to my favorites, but this link has a complete list to all God's killings.

Dwindling In Unbelief: How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)

Kills everyone in the world but 8 people because he didn't like the way they turned out.
(Genesis 6)

Kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah because they were having the wrong kind of sex. Had no problem saving the incestuous Lot and his Daughters. (Genesis 19)

Kills every first born child in Egypt- (Ex 12:29-30 )

Insists Jepthah kill his own daughter over a foolish oath (Jg 11:39)

Killing Uzzah for stopping the Ark from falling off a wagon. (2Sam 6:6-7, 1Chr 13:9-10 )
No word if his face melted like that guy in the Indiana Jones movie.

Kills David's baby to teach David that it's wrong to take another man's wife. (Seriously, what did the baby do?) 2Sam 12:14-18

Kills 70,000 for a Census he told David to take. Makes David choose the method. 2Sam 24:15, 1Chr 21:14

My personal favorite - God sends two bears to kill 42 children for mocking a bald prophet's head. 2Kg 2:23-24

Seriously, he's coming off less like a loving God and more like the villian in a Batman movie.

 

[logical4u]

Gee, isn't that special. By wrong, they mean "something that we haven't declared to be true." And you're right, I went to Catholic Schools for 12 years, and realized the bullshit pretty early. For instance, Bible clearly says "No Graven Images", but you have all sorts of statues in any given Catholic Church of the saints you are supposed to pray to.

(Praying to Saints- Kind of to Polytheism what nicotine gum is to smoking.)



Oooooh, I love when they compare me to "the devil" because I point out the insane crap in their own holy book.

Okay, let's take this silliness one step further. This is always one of my favorite arguments from Bible Thumpers. "But that's the OLD TESTAMENT".

That would assume that Jesus (who is God) actually would have disapproved of God's (which is to say his) handling of the whole S&G fiasco....

But the problem is, he didn't.



So the only person who Jesus/God was really okay with Punishing was Lot's wife, who let's not forget, only committed the horrible sin of looking back when her home was destroyed (which I think any of us would do), while he had no problem with Lot pimping his daughter or having drunken sex with them.

Also, I'd have to wonder why God would 1) Screw up his own creation so bad that it was so evil and 2) Wait 2000 years before putting in the fix of sending Jesus down to be a kinder, gentler Sky Pixie after torturing his followers for all those years.

There are many instances where being in the presence of the Lord equalled death. The Hebrews would not look at the Lord. They would throw themselves to the ground and not look up at Him. After He joined the hebrews, and stayed with them, if people that were not properly cleansed entered His sancuary, they disinegrated. It is possible that when Lot's wife looked back, she saw the Lord's face, and was destroyed.

That sounds a lot like how Islam handles drawing a picture of Mohammed.

Difference: the "followers" determine who will die. With the Lord, it was the Lord that killed those that were not "prepared" to be in His presence (and they "knew" His power and His rules). With islam, any of the hundreds of sects have different beliefs of who should be "sacrificed to allah" and the what the reasons should be. As far as I know "allah" never traveled with Mohammed or any other muslim. Allah never parted a sea or traveled as a pillar of fire, or sent plagues against those that hurt his people. The followers of islam call the Lord of the Bible a "liar"; they say that He deceived the hebrews by calling the israelites "His people", when really, He meant that Ishmael's descendents were His "real people". This is not sequentially logical, since Ishmael was the great uncle of Israel, born many years (decades even) before Israel was named. The followers of islam claim that Yeshua is one of their prophets, but they ignore His statement that He came to save the Jews.

 

[logical4u]

I don't believe in your god or any gods, so no I don't hate it. Do you hate Santa Claus despite not believing in him?



The Bible says he's committed genocide time after time after time, all one has to do is be able to read to know this.

....." The Bible says he's committed genocide time after time after time" .... evidence?????

Genocide was committed by the Hebrew slaves when the Lord led them into the promised land. Those that dwelt there had sinned against the Lord and against man. The Lord used "slaves" to do as he had promised (read Jubilees). A weak force overthrew (with the Lord's help) bullies of the area.

So when was the time after that, and the time after that?

Read

Deutoronomy 2

Deutoronomy 20

Joshua 11

The Walls of Jericho story

Killing all the first born in Egypt in Exodus

Ezekial 9

Hosea 9

Jeremiah 51

Isaiah 13

Judges 15

Samuel 15

Ezekial 35

Judges 20

Numbers 25

Jeremiah 50

Judges 18


This stuff isn't hard to find. This is all where God either committed genocide, or ordered it, or approved of it.

I don't believe this is "genocide". It is targeted against specific kingdoms. There is no search for the people's from these countries to be gathered for destruction. It is punishment for sins against the Lord. In some cases the people are encouraged to run away from the destruction before it begins. That is not genocide.

Deutoronomy 2 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

Deutoronomy 20 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

Joshua 11 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

The Walls of Jericho story

Killing all the first born in Egypt in Exodus Not genocide, punishment, the same as given to the Hebrews by their owners, the Egyptians when Moses was a baby

Ezekial 9 Again, punishment from the Lord for those that “tolerated” detestable things done in the Lord’s holy city

Hosea 9 Again punishment for Ephraim’s descendants (from Joseph), that were sinning against the Lord and worshipping the god Baal and following evil.

Jeremiah 51 A covenant was made with the Lord, He would protect His people, Babylonia hurt His people and was repaid in kind, the citizens were encouraged to run from the destruction.

Isaiah 13 A prophesy, in the process of being fulfilled against the sinners against the Lord

Judges 15 One man’s vengeance?????

Samuel 15 These were people that attacked the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and this attack was their punishment

Ezekial 35 These were people that attacked the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and this attack was their punishment

Judges 20 Hebrews defending lawbreakers and violators were attacked and punished for defending the lawbreakers. The lawbreakers were punished as well as those that defended them.

Numbers 25 This, again was against people that sinned against the Lord and man. It also involved stopping a plague

Jeremiah 50 A prophesy of punishment against an oppressive country

Judges 18 This one appears to be a band of hoodlums acting on their own and sinning against the Lord. This is not a punishment from the Lord.

 

[logical4u]

There is no such thing as an atheist neighborhood, nor an atheist country. FF is trying to smear another large group and elevate her own without success. Secular states are neutral as regards religion.

Are you aware that the USSR and China oppressed Christians? Are you aware that one of those communist regimes (and possibly the other) denigrated the breaking of bread by contaminating the symbolic bread with human waste and biological fouling? Are you aware that if the people/subjects did not go to a "sanctioned" church (one that the leader was aware of the the intentional desicration of their faith) that they could be arrested and imprisoned? Are you aware that while in prison for their "beliefs" that they were tortured, beaten, and sometimes killed while the jailers taunted them, proclaiming themselves to be the prisoners "gods"? Secular states are not neutral. It is a false claim. Secular states always "lean" a particular way. Because they have not declared a faith to be predominant, they are subject to corruption, like any other government.

 

[logical4u]

"
The study also shows that Americans who make more money attend religious services more frequently, and that Americans who have been unemployed at any point in the past 10 years attend services less frequently. The study found that people who are married, who do not approve of premarital sex and those who lost their virginity later than their peers also attend services more often.
“While we recognize that not everyone wishes to worship, and that religious diversity can be valuable, we also think that the existence of a large group of less educated Americans that is increasingly disconnected from religious institutions is troubling for our society,” says Andrew Cherlin, co-author of the study and a professor of sociology and public policy at the Johns Hopkins University. “This development reinforces the social marginalization of less educated Americans who are also increasingly disconnected from the institutions of marriage and work.”

Church Attendance Falling Among Less-Educated Whites: Study

Maybe the Lord really does "bless" those that worship Him!

 

[logical4u]

Well that's one theory.
Based on nothing except your nose hairs, but still a theory.

As is yours, but mine is based on common sense.

Here's the thing, old people like Church. They know they are going to die soon, and they are going to try their best to get in good at the last minute.

People who have lives to live don't have time.

Another point-

IN the last half decade, I've been too a bunch of funerals. When you hit my age, it becomes a more regular thing, unfortunately.

One was for my brother-in-law. Died unexpectedly of a heart attack at the age of 56. (Ironically, the same age my dad died at, and I'm sure my sister felt some deja vu.) Well, he did everything right by the eyes of the Church. got married there and stayed married to the same woman for 30 years. Sent both his kids to school, even worked for a parish as a handyman after he retired from his union job as a laborer.

Then you had my uncle. Died in his 70's. divorced my aunt (even though the Catholic Church says not to do that) for the trophy wife. But he gave the church a lot of money.

Guess which one got the really involved eulogy from the priest, and who got the "insert deceased name here" service?

That's why people don't go to church, pumpkin. Bunch of fuckin' hypocrites.

Do you really believe that the hypocrites limit themselves to attending church and you find them no where else?? People go to church for many reasons, including social syncophants, and some even attend to (shh, don't tell) IMPROVE THEMSELVES, by listening to the Word of the Lord spoken verbally, and to be motivated into sinning less along with hoping the Holy Spirit will offer them grace and strength to overcome their sins (that includes hypocricy).
I am sorry for your losses. The Lord's ways are not known by us. His reasons are not our reasons, and His plans are not our plans. I believe He calls some of us to Him, not because of what they have done (or haven't done), but because they have touched some one that He wants to reach, and is desperately trying to get their attention. If they don't pay attention, He will try to reach them again, and each time, it will be closer to home. At least, that has been my experience.

 

[logical4u]

That's right. If he existed, he would spend all his time kowtowing to you, individually, giving you everything you think you need and want.

Thank goodness, God knows what is best and right, and he sees to it we get it. If we like it or not.

Right. So all those people who died on 9-11 died because that's what God wanted.

See. that's easy. If you want to worship a psychopath.

I don't. Especially not imaginary ones.

Are you suggesting the Lord hold us as mental slaves with no ability to reason? How does your above statement recognize the people that studied and worked really hard to murder all those people? Are you saying that people really have no power over their own decisions and the Lord should save us from ourselves by making us into His Zombie army that chants His name with no understanding of His power or Greatness? Have you considered how many people did NOT die on 9/11? The towers could house over 50,000 employees, and if each employee had a customer or a sales rep speaking to them that day, the death toll would have been much higher? I guess that is an atheist thing, to always look for gloom and despair when the light is shining and a shadow passes to remind us of how good we have it.

 

[JoeB131]

That's right. If he existed, he would spend all his time kowtowing to you, individually, giving you everything you think you need and want.

Thank goodness, God knows what is best and right, and he sees to it we get it. If we like it or not.

Right. So all those people who died on 9-11 died because that's what God wanted.

See. that's easy. If you want to worship a psychopath.

I don't. Especially not imaginary ones.

Are you suggesting the Lord hold us as mental slaves with no ability to reason? How does your above statement recognize the people that studied and worked really hard to murder all those people? Are you saying that people really have no power over their own decisions and the Lord should save us from ourselves by making us into His Zombie army that chants His name with no understanding of His power or Greatness? Have you considered how many people did NOT die on 9/11? The towers could house over 50,000 employees, and if each employee had a customer or a sales rep speaking to them that day, the death toll would have been much higher? I guess that is an atheist thing, to always look for gloom and despair when the light is shining and a shadow passes to remind us of how good we have it.

Oh, I see. God couldn't stop those guys because they studied reallly hard to pull off the scheme. So this omnipotent being can be stymied by really hard study and work. Ahhhh, I get it now.

Or Iron Chariots.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
—Judges 1:19

So Studying really hard or getting yourself some Iron Chariots will stop God. Got it.

 

[JoeB131]

Guess which one got the really involved eulogy from the priest, and who got the "insert deceased name here" service?

That's why people don't go to church, pumpkin. Bunch of fuckin' hypocrites.

Do you really believe that the hypocrites limit themselves to attending church and you find them no where else?? People go to church for many reasons, including social syncophants, and some even attend to (shh, don't tell) IMPROVE THEMSELVES, by listening to the Word of the Lord spoken verbally, and to be motivated into sinning less along with hoping the Holy Spirit will offer them grace and strength to overcome their sins (that includes hypocricy).
I am sorry for your losses. The Lord's ways are not known by us. His reasons are not our reasons, and His plans are not our plans. I believe He calls some of us to Him, not because of what they have done (or haven't done), but because they have touched some one that He wants to reach, and is desperately trying to get their attention. If they don't pay attention, He will try to reach them again, and each time, it will be closer to home. At least, that has been my experience.

Or you can just do what my creepy uncle did and give them a bunch of money, and they totally forgive all the pain you inflict on your family.

Heck, they even praised the trophy wife at the funeral while the orignal wife, (my aunt) was in the room. BURN!

I was done with these phonies 30 years ago.

 

[koshergrl]

And obviously you're a happier person because of it.

 

[JoeB131]

And obviously you're a happier person because of it.

vastly.

When I used to buy into the bullshit, I felt guilty all the time over stuff I never should have felt guilty about...

I used to look at the priest and think, "What a fat, stupid hypocrite!" and then feel guilty about that, too.

Now I can look at these fat guilty hypocrites who are up there because they couldn't deal with being gay (about 99% of the Catholic Clergy) and realize they are phonies.

 

[Dr.Drock]

....." The Bible says he's committed genocide time after time after time" .... evidence?????

Genocide was committed by the Hebrew slaves when the Lord led them into the promised land. Those that dwelt there had sinned against the Lord and against man. The Lord used "slaves" to do as he had promised (read Jubilees). A weak force overthrew (with the Lord's help) bullies of the area.

So when was the time after that, and the time after that?

Read

Deutoronomy 2

Deutoronomy 20

Joshua 11

The Walls of Jericho story

Killing all the first born in Egypt in Exodus

Ezekial 9

Hosea 9

Jeremiah 51

Isaiah 13

Judges 15

Samuel 15

Ezekial 35

Judges 20

Numbers 25

Jeremiah 50

Judges 18


This stuff isn't hard to find. This is all where God either committed genocide, or ordered it, or approved of it.

I don't believe this is "genocide". It is targeted against specific kingdoms. There is no search for the people's from these countries to be gathered for destruction. It is punishment for sins against the Lord. In some cases the people are encouraged to run away from the destruction before it begins. That is not genocide.

Deutoronomy 2 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

Deutoronomy 20 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

Joshua 11 Punishment for the peoples that sinned against the Lord and against man; they were “eliminated” to prevent others from repeating their terrible sins.

The Walls of Jericho story

Killing all the first born in Egypt in Exodus Not genocide, punishment, the same as given to the Hebrews by their owners, the Egyptians when Moses was a baby

Ezekial 9 Again, punishment from the Lord for those that “tolerated” detestable things done in the Lord’s holy city

Hosea 9 Again punishment for Ephraim’s descendants (from Joseph), that were sinning against the Lord and worshipping the god Baal and following evil.

Jeremiah 51 A covenant was made with the Lord, He would protect His people, Babylonia hurt His people and was repaid in kind, the citizens were encouraged to run from the destruction.

Isaiah 13 A prophesy, in the process of being fulfilled against the sinners against the Lord

Judges 15 One man’s vengeance?????

Samuel 15 These were people that attacked the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and this attack was their punishment

Ezekial 35 These were people that attacked the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and this attack was their punishment

Judges 20 Hebrews defending lawbreakers and violators were attacked and punished for defending the lawbreakers. The lawbreakers were punished as well as those that defended them.

Numbers 25 This, again was against people that sinned against the Lord and man. It also involved stopping a plague

Jeremiah 50 A prophesy of punishment against an oppressive country

Judges 18 This one appears to be a band of hoodlums acting on their own and sinning against the Lord. This is not a punishment from the Lord.

Trust me I didn't expect you to agree. I knew you'd be able to deflect and downplay millions of murders, it's what you've been trained to do.

I prefer when people downplay it because it's the Old Testament, done away with by the New, this excusing repeated genocide is pretty revolting.

 

[koshergrl]

And obviously you're a happier person because of it.

vastly.

When I used to buy into the bullshit, I felt guilty all the time over stuff I never should have felt guilty about...

I used to look at the priest and think, "What a fat, stupid hypocrite!" and then feel guilty about that, too.

Now I can look at these fat guilty hypocrites who are up there because they couldn't deal with being gay (about 99% of the Catholic Clergy) and realize they are phonies.

Priest?

Didn't you say you were Baptist for years?

Anyway, you just come off as a nutjob. But whatever rocks your boat.

 

[Foxfyre]

And obviously you're a happier person because of it.

vastly.

When I used to buy into the bullshit, I felt guilty all the time over stuff I never should have felt guilty about...

I used to look at the priest and think, "What a fat, stupid hypocrite!" and then feel guilty about that, too.

Now I can look at these fat guilty hypocrites who are up there because they couldn't deal with being gay (about 99% of the Catholic Clergy) and realize they are phonies.

Priest?

Didn't you say you were Baptist for years?

Anyway, you just come off as a nutjob. But whatever rocks your boat.

Nutjob? Naw. He doesn't come across as that. But happy? Nope. Nobody with that much hatred and venom in his thoughts is truly happy. Irrational? Yeah. Anybody who takes one section of the Old Testament as literal without putting it into its full context and meaning is at least uninformed if not irrational.

 

[koshergrl]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

 

[Foxfyre]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Yes, that would be right. It's impossible to have another opinion on this thread. Certain views aren't welcome.

 

[Foxfyre]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.