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This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.
No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.
No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.
Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".
Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.
????
IM2
The white colonialists, imperialist and slave traders
may have established the slave trade and laws
that caused the genocide and damage to Africans
and their descendants (as well as the genocide
against Native Americans still seeking healing and restoration today as well)
But no, racism and tribalism started with human nature
and our collective "pack mentality" and pecking order.
The Native Americans will tell you their culture went through
tribal wars, slavery, genocides of tribe against tribe
LONG BEFORE the "white man" started this chapter in the saga
affecting all humanity. It goes in cycles until we learn
and break this cycle of war oppression and tribal bullying to dominate for power.
The same healing that it took Native Americans
to get over their wars and slavery and live in peace,
we all have to go through regardless of what cultural or personal experience
we share in this universal process.
This is about all of humanity, and no one group
is any more or less to blame. All groups have their
strong points and positive contributions to the whole of humanity,
and all have their faults and destruction they go through as well.
When you see the bigger picture IM2
it's like a huge overlapping and complex Symphony
where every section has a special part to play.
And we all have to learn to play our parts IN TUNE,
at the right timing, and in Harmony with others.
If there is a problem, we have to correct it.
That goes with everyone and every group.
We are all in this together and that's how we are going to overcome
the fear and unforgiveness for past injustice
that otherwise obstructs our ability to work together
toward solutions and create that perfect Symphony we are designed for.
OT:If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>
Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.
The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.
I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.
I've met plenty of people. And I say what I do because that is what I have seen And I've seen pretty much all 50 states and most major cities, The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference. And like I have said, I don't see whites saying that only some blacks commit crimes. or that there are some black unwed mothers, so until that is consistently done by whites no one wants to be lectured by someone white about seeing whites as individuals. Institutional racism is still plenty prevalent. You don't get to post make believe like its true.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
By Mia Mercado
Mar 15 2017
The roots of racism run deep. They permeate our culture beyond the existence of racial slurs and persist regardless of our first black president. To see examples of systemic racism, you don’t even need to look far. If you have gone to school, lived in a house, had a job, or been to the doctor, you’ve likely been hurt or helped by institutional racism at some point in your life.
Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is defined as the pattern of social and political systems discriminating against a group of people based on race. If you’re wondering how a school or a bank or any “thing” or “system” can be racist, ask yourself who runs those “things” and “systems.” A government or any other institution is created and run by human beings. While a building or a document cannot itself hold prejudice or beliefs (on account of...they’re made of bricks and/or paper), human beings are more than capable of holding prejudicial beliefs, and in turn, creating systems that reflect those beliefs.
My “But slavery was abolished and hate crimes are illegal” senses are tingling; this is usually the part in the conversation where laws established or struck down are used as examples of why institutional racism can’t exist. If Equal Employment Opportunity Laws make it federally illegal, how can job discrimination based on race persist? Oh, sweet, naive, hypothetical question. Making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If that were the case, murders would never happen and even if they did, they would all be solved and the victim brought justice. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unsolved murders still very much exist. Like, there are whole basic cable channels dedicated to them.
Institution racism is real. Systemic bias exists. Here are just seven examples of how our systems treat people of color differently — and how it shows that institutional racism is still a very real problem.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
This is an article written 8 months ago. I don't think institutional racism ended in the past 8 months. Some of us need to quit lying to ourselves about this and others need to quit calling people who tell the truth about how such things exist racists. So you look throughout our history, whites have always been looked at as individuals. Whites have been the ones with the problem recognizing the individuality of others. This argument about individualism is bogus because that is not the intent of the argument. The current argument is used to try forcing others to shut up about the consistent racism that is in our society today.
Why are the links "buried?" I wouldn't have known they were there but for moving my mouse across the screen to scroll and noticing a piece of text "blink."
For readers who may be interested, take the matter seriously, and are willing to read the linked content, here are the hyperlinked passages:
On Topic:
From the linked essay:
"Where you live can decide everything from how safe you are, to what food you eat, to the quality of your health care to the quality of your job, to the quality of your children's education."Thinking about and responding to that assertion, I have the following to say:
"Where you live can decide..."Having written the above, I feel it imperative to note that I am not at all denying the existence of systemic racism. As a lifelong friend of mine who is a real estate developer says, "The best thing for real estate values is white people." He doesn't say that with any emotion other than disgust. And he's right.
- "How safe you are" --> I don't by this at all. Oneself and the other people where one lives determine how safe one is.
- If one lives on the American West Coast in Seattle, Portland, or anywhere else between the ocean and the mountains, one is not safe from earthquakes and/or tidal waves. That aspect of one's safety, of course, has nothing to do with racism.
- If one lives in [insert whatever high-violence locale suits you], one's safety is certainly premised, in part, on the predisposition of the people in that area to violently exacting their will on others. No matter why ne'er do wells do so to some of their peers, the fact remains that their doing so is a choice, not a foregone conclusion. And, no, I'm not denying that poverty and violence are correlated; they are. I'm saying that I do not accept that poverty is a cause of violence.
- "What food you eat" --> This is probably true to some extent. It certainly is for me. When I just don't feel like cooking, I'm going to walk over to Connecticut Ave and pick a place to grab something to eat. Doing so, I am presented with a wide variety of choices and price points. Were the only very convenient choices available to me fast food options, I probably would either only go out to eat at places somewhat farther from my home or cook all my meals.
There is, however, the matter of what one prioritizes. Is it one's priority to eat healthily or to eat conveniently? Eating healthily and conveniently (i.e., purchasing one's meals) takes a certain level of wealth. That said, even folks who, to eat, depend wholly on food stamps receive (at least up to and including 2017) enough to eat well/healthily, though perhaps not if they insist on prioritizing convenience over food quality.- "The quality of your health care" --> I'm okay with this part of the assertion.
- "The quality of your job" --> I don't understand how where one lives, provided one lives in a metropolitan area, affects the quality of one's job. There certainly are people who live in somewhat remote areas and have very fine jobs; however, those people generally don't work where they live, the exception being people who can exclusively work from home/remotely.
- "The quality of your children's education" --> Insofar as most children attend schools in their own neighborhood (more or less), I agree to some extent; however, as with the safety assertion discussed above, the quality of one's schooling has a lot to do with the people associated with the school one attends, most importantly the students and their parents.
A teacher's job is to deliver information, make it comprehensible and to a small extent motivate students to learn; it's a parent's "job" to motivate the student, help their kids learn, and supplement the teacher's efforts; it's always and solely the student's job to learn the material. The best teacher in the world cannot make a student learn if the student doesn't do the work necessary to do so.
Yes, there are, at times, gaps in the modernity of facilities and, at times, the efficacy of them, and, no, I don't think there should be material gaps of that nature. That said, I doubt many jurisdictions have the resources to continually upgrade every school the "instant" a new facility resource is invented or imagined. Jurisdictions cycle upgrades to schools as best they can, but they can't do every school every X-many years, and because they cannot, some schools will be "old school" for a time.
Also, I don't think facilities themselves have a whole lot to do with what student can be taught in most key subjects, science being a notable exception. After all, Newton and Leibniz invented calculus with far fewer resources than are made available in any U.S. school. Shakespeare had no ballpoint or felt pens and paper was nowhere near as inexpensive or available as it is today. Thomas Jefferson managed to read some 6,000 books, none of which were cheap to buy, yet today many a school library, the Internet and/or public library has the same content available for free. Quite simply, learning and becoming learned does not these days require a whole lot in the way of facilities, but it does require a good deal of will to learn
D.C. and the D.C. area has several upper middle and upper income areas populated almost entirely by black professionals and thriving-business owners, yet the assessed value, selling prices and rate of value increase in those areas do not keep pace with white areas that are substantively the same. Indeed, some newly constructed subdivisions in those areas are built by the same builders and are the exact same houses that are found in comparably populated but predominately white areas. In D.C. one sees the same phenomenon played out in the Crestwood to North Portal areas immediately east of Rock Creek Park and Forest HIlls to Hawthorne areas abutting the west side of the Park.
I can't see there being any reason for that pattern other than some sort of systematized or culturally inculcated discrimination. Both regions are very "suburban," even though they are in the city. Children in all of those areas will go to the same high school. Neither area has an abundance of "walk to it" stores, restaurants and other basic need businesses like grocers, drug stores, dry cleaners, and whatnot. Both regions sprung up as "streetcar" neighborhoods, that is, they were places where well paid workers in and related to the government built homes. The homeowners in those neighborhoods are all law abiding, "lots to lose" and high earning professionals and business owners. All that similarity, yet in the white neighborhoods I've cited, white homeowners enjoy better rates of equity growth. That they do cannot be explained by the body of material objective factors.
So while I take exception with the quality of the argument in the essay you shared, IM2, I acknowledge its key conclusions -- systemic discrimination still exists and something(s) must be done to markedly diminish or end it. The burden of doing those things falls on us all, not minorities alone and not whites alone. In doing so, members of each identity group are bid to do the things appropriate their group, realizing too that some actions are appropriate to members of every group.
In the last pages of "Separate Pasts, Growing Up White in the Segregated South," Melton McLaurin shares his visit with an older Black gentleman he had known while growing up.It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education
This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.
In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.
I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.
So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.
Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship
The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.
He asked him about how Wade's white folks liked Black men serving on the town council. "There are some who aren't happy with the situation, but they can't do nothing about it. For the most part, we get along. There's people of my race I don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that you don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that I'd rather be with than some of my race. But the racism is still there."
He pauses a beat in his response, glancing away, as if searching for just the right words to capture the way in which race and racism continue to impact the community. He faces me again and speaks slowly, forcefully, the words coming from deep within him. "It's in you, and it's in me, and that's the truth, down there inside us. That's just the way it it."
I get in the car and am filled with a deep, sorrowful anger. It does not diminish as I drive from Wade to Wilmington to continue to struggle with the difficult necessity of confronting our separate pasts."
I believe that since individuals form communities, those individuals must come together to honestly confront and deal with the racism that has been so ingrained in us. As Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”
I was cheering this tale on right on up to point where we find that some little remnant of racism festers inside all of us. That's a generalization that just devalues the tale. And it conflates racism with "confronting our separate pasts".. Well guess what -- LARGE fractions of either race didn't play a role in that past. Not the Caribbean blacks or the 20th century Euro immigrants for example. So stuff the "coming together as a community" deal if it's all about one big group harping on the other big group about history that is shared and causing the "It's in you" problem. THAT confrontation just FUELS racial divides. Which is of course what SOME folks get paid to do and go to college to be proficient at.
You want to UNWIND racism on BOTH sides? Meet some folks from the other side. Have a dialogue. Find out the long list of things that REALLY defines them. LOSE this racist concept of stereotyping by group... Which is all that happens when only "our separate pasts" are discussed.
For crying out loud -- fly free. LOSE the "my skin color defines me" and smell the 21st century.
Be that as it may, that is is where clicking on the hyperlinked text took me.The link should be to a website where you can download a PDF file. None of those links you presented are the PDF file.
FWIW, there is a button on the toolbar just above the "reply window" that allows one to remove hyperlinks. Select the relevant text and click the button. The button is the one with the red dot in the lower right corner; hovering over it reveals the caption "unlink." If one removes unwanted links, readers won't stumble across them and respond to the content found at them.Such is why the links to this article was buried.
you decided to post up while ignoring the OP as a response to someone saying that institutional racism was basically gone.
My point here is ... to discuss and debate the falsehood of individualism.
The discussion is not baiting and taunting each other.
Yes it's much better stereotype everyoneIt's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education
This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.
In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.
I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.
So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.
Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship
The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.
It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education
This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.
In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.
I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.
So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.
Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship
The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.
Just more race baiting from one of this board's most racist nignags.It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education
This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.
In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.
I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.
So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.
Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship
The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.
You can’t have a “system” of white supremacy when both the media and academia are blatantly anti-white and desirous of the outright elimination of European identity.Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?
I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?
I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.
People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.
You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.
No it has not been debunked and you have been described this system over and over and over in your lifetime.
If you actually understood what a “system” entailed you would know this.
If your system actually existed you'd have a point.
This is one of the most divisive forums I've ever seen.
Absolutely. I have never in my life seen such dysfunction.
You can’t have a “system” of white supremacy when both the media and academia are blatantly anti-white and desirous of the outright elimination of European identity.Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.
You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.
No it has not been debunked and you have been described this system over and over and over in your lifetime.
If you actually understood what a “system” entailed you would know this.
If your system actually existed you'd have a point.
Indeed. That was the most humorous statement that I have read in quite awhile.
"The media and academia are blatantly anti white"?????
WTF?
Both entities are PREDOMINATELY controlled by whites.
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.
The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.
Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"
SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.
And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.
I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. Laws were made and those laws did inhibit the rights of groups of people to the benefit of another group. They still are. So it's a little disingenuous especially coming from the group that established this way of doing things to be talking about looking at people as individuals when they have had 241 years to do so, never have and are only using this to maintain a system where they never will have to. This pretense is transparent especially when it is only applied to people of color when they are talking about how they have been done by the system of white racism in this country.
You haven't thought about racism. Not really. You see the term leftist is a group term, but here we see you talking about how you cannot think of group identities. This is where you consistently fail in trying this line of garbage.
What your idiot tool said is that YOU can't be an individual because you're not "in the dominant group". The process of ending institutional LEGAL bias has made extraordinary progress. So less and less group identification is necessary. And in fact PROMOTES racism. DUHHH....
Live the free life. Bust an individual identity. You are NOT defined by skin color --- ARE YOU? Who are the people defined by skin color? They are RACISTS. Group identification feeds that racism. Seeing folks as individuals defuses that.
If that's how you relate to the world and biggest selling point of who you are --- then MAYBE you should consider being a diversity trainer like the useless tool in your OP..
Only racists do that. And please don't tell me what I've thought through or not. Let's just discuss your OP..
We are discussing my OP and you have not thought. You are here posting garbage flacaltenn..
Of you want to discuss the OP, then read the study. .
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Antiracist Education
Google it, then read it. I'm tired of arguing with you based upon your unlearned opinion of things like this. Because you don't even understand how this person came to this conclusion, you don't know what hey studied t determine this but you dismiss is summarily because of an ignorant belief in individualism that denies every factor that involves individual differences. So read the study. Learn about Discourse theory and the 8 dynamics your belief in individualism denies or ignores.
Institutional bias is not gone nor have we made he strides you conservatives believe. I know this because I've studied these issues for 32 years. You haven't.
But I won't be holding my breath expecting you to read the study. What I do expect is an excuse as to why you can't.
This is one of the most divisive forums I've ever seen.
Absolutely. I have never in my life seen such dysfunction.
Dear Natural Citizen and buttercup
I believe it's because of the free speech allowed here
and the organization of sections where people have designated places
to go to either vent/flame/troll or to stick with structured debates as in CDZ.
Since people have the freedom to do both, you will see people
use that freedom to express all kinds of things and actually
get responses from people to keep the dialogue moving
and possibly get some helpful feedback.
[NOTE: re the OP and section: as for topics such as "racism", in relation to religion and politics,
these are naturally going to get the most divided, especially the deeper you go because of the
internalized pain and fear of other groups having more power to continue oppression.
it's like opening up old wounds to clean out where the infection started,
and finding it is in the bone or the bloodstream which means
massive invasive procedures to remove it completely. That is going to cause a lot of bleeding out. But
the body will never fully heal if there is any infection left from old wounds still embedded.
But that's the nature of going that deep to get to the root of the disease.]
In general about the freedom and support to use this forum:
There was even a 1 post msg by someone complaining
and one of the Mods (I believe it was flacaltenn)
took time to respond in full detail to provide helpful information.
So that helps other people to understand how things work here,
so they can stay and post as long and as much as they want
as long as they use the right forums and formats.
I haven't found another team of Mods willing and able to
handle the HUGE range of diversity here, from hopeless
"hit and run" users that appear as trolls but because they
post content here and there, they are kept and not banned.
To the really elaborate long winded posters who mean well but can overdo it
such as me and Xelor whose long msgs or "walls of text" can cause problems
for some people. Because of the "ignore" function, it doesn't have to.
The freedom to share this openly
will cause both the extreme good and extreme bad sides to come out.
But even the worst is good, because people need to vent
and talk things through if we are ever going to work it out.
The first step is to express what we think and feel, about
issues or toward people or groups we blame. So this is
what the first step looks like, mixed with people who are
beyond that and looking at from that view. It's going to be
a mix, because people are not in the same stages or steps
of the grief, recovery and problem solving process. Some are
still in denial and projection, shock or grief; others are ready
to solve problems and help others to seek out common solutions.
This is what the process looks like.
And like they say about sausage or legislation,
you don't always want to watch them getting made!!!
Thanks Natural Citizen and buttercup
I hope you stick around and find areas and posts to provide helpful
information and support where you can speed up the process
of getting past these conflicts and take productive steps toward solutions!
Yours truly, Emily
<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>
Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.
The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.
I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.
If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>
Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.
The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.
I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.
I've met plenty of people. And I say what I do because that is what I have seen And I've seen pretty much all 50 states and most major cities, The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference. And like I have said, I don't see whites saying that only some blacks commit crimes. or that there are some black unwed mothers, so until that is consistently done by whites no one wants to be lectured by someone white about seeing whites as individuals. Institutional racism is still plenty prevalent. You don't get to post make believe like its true.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
By Mia Mercado
Mar 15 2017
The roots of racism run deep. They permeate our culture beyond the existence of racial slurs and persist regardless of our first black president. To see examples of systemic racism, you don’t even need to look far. If you have gone to school, lived in a house, had a job, or been to the doctor, you’ve likely been hurt or helped by institutional racism at some point in your life.
Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is defined as the pattern of social and political systems discriminating against a group of people based on race. If you’re wondering how a school or a bank or any “thing” or “system” can be racist, ask yourself who runs those “things” and “systems.” A government or any other institution is created and run by human beings. While a building or a document cannot itself hold prejudice or beliefs (on account of...they’re made of bricks and/or paper), human beings are more than capable of holding prejudicial beliefs, and in turn, creating systems that reflect those beliefs.
My “But slavery was abolished and hate crimes are illegal” senses are tingling; this is usually the part in the conversation where laws established or struck down are used as examples of why institutional racism can’t exist. If Equal Employment Opportunity Laws make it federally illegal, how can job discrimination based on race persist? Oh, sweet, naive, hypothetical question. Making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If that were the case, murders would never happen and even if they did, they would all be solved and the victim brought justice. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unsolved murders still very much exist. Like, there are whole basic cable channels dedicated to them.
Institution racism is real. Systemic bias exists. Here are just seven examples of how our systems treat people of color differently — and how it shows that institutional racism is still a very real problem.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
This is an article written 8 months ago. I don't think institutional racism ended in the past 8 months. Some of us need to quit lying to ourselves about this and others need to quit calling people who tell the truth about how such things exist racists. So you look throughout our history, whites have always been looked at as individuals. Whites have been the ones with the problem recognizing the individuality of others. This argument about individualism is bogus because that is not the intent of the argument. The current argument is used to try forcing others to shut up about the consistent racism that is in our society today.
Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.
The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.
Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"
SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.
And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.
I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. Laws were made and those laws did inhibit the rights of groups of people to the benefit of another group. They still are. So it's a little disingenuous especially coming from the group that established this way of doing things to be talking about looking at people as individuals when they have had 241 years to do so, never have and are only using this to maintain a system where they never will have to. This pretense is transparent especially when it is only applied to people of color when they are talking about how they have been done by the system of white racism in this country.
You haven't thought about racism. Not really. You see the term leftist is a group term, but here we see you talking about how you cannot think of group identities. This is where you consistently fail in trying this line of garbage.
What your idiot tool said is that YOU can't be an individual because you're not "in the dominant group". The process of ending institutional LEGAL bias has made extraordinary progress. So less and less group identification is necessary. And in fact PROMOTES racism. DUHHH....
Live the free life. Bust an individual identity. You are NOT defined by skin color --- ARE YOU? Who are the people defined by skin color? They are RACISTS. Group identification feeds that racism. Seeing folks as individuals defuses that.
If that's how you relate to the world and biggest selling point of who you are --- then MAYBE you should consider being a diversity trainer like the useless tool in your OP..
Only racists do that. And please don't tell me what I've thought through or not. Let's just discuss your OP..
We are discussing my OP and you have not thought. You are here posting garbage flacaltenn..
Of you want to discuss the OP, then read the study. .
Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Antiracist Education
Google it, then read it. I'm tired of arguing with you based upon your unlearned opinion of things like this. Because you don't even understand how this person came to this conclusion, you don't know what hey studied t determine this but you dismiss is summarily because of an ignorant belief in individualism that denies every factor that involves individual differences. So read the study. Learn about Discourse theory and the 8 dynamics your belief in individualism denies or ignores.
Institutional bias is not gone nor have we made he strides you conservatives believe. I know this because I've studied these issues for 32 years. You haven't.
But I won't be holding my breath expecting you to read the study. What I do expect is an excuse as to why you can't.
Yet you didn't lift a pinky finger to COUNTER anything I said. That's partly caused by addressing ME as a member of a group, rather than the individual that I am. And you apparently have no intention of an actual discussion. Treat EVERYONE as your "oppositie group" -- instead of as individuals -- and YOU TOO --- just might be a bigot and racist.. That's how it works. General class stereotyping. Whining about injustices to the people you pitch -- who were never PART of that injustice. That's how and WHY the hate and bias propagates.
You are not fixing a thing by avoiding discussions on the stuff that you assert and want folks to consume raw and unprocessed.. In FACT --- you're making things worse. Good job..
No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.
No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.
Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".
Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.
????
IM2
The white colonialists, imperialist and slave traders
may have established the slave trade and laws
that caused the genocide and damage to Africans
and their descendants (as well as the genocide
against Native Americans still seeking healing and restoration today as well)
But no, racism and tribalism started with human nature
and our collective "pack mentality" and pecking order.
The Native Americans will tell you their culture went through
tribal wars, slavery, genocides of tribe against tribe
LONG BEFORE the "white man" started this chapter in the saga
affecting all humanity. It goes in cycles until we learn
and break this cycle of war oppression and tribal bullying to dominate for power.
The same healing that it took Native Americans
to get over their wars and slavery and live in peace,
we all have to go through regardless of what cultural or personal experience
we share in this universal process.
This is about all of humanity, and no one group
is any more or less to blame. All groups have their
strong points and positive contributions to the whole of humanity,
and all have their faults and destruction they go through as well.
When you see the bigger picture IM2
it's like a huge overlapping and complex Symphony
where every section has a special part to play.
And we all have to learn to play our parts IN TUNE,
at the right timing, and in Harmony with others.
If there is a problem, we have to correct it.
That goes with everyone and every group.
We are all in this together and that's how we are going to overcome
the fear and unforgiveness for past injustice
that otherwise obstructs our ability to work together
toward solutions and create that perfect Symphony we are designed for.
I've seen the bigger picture. Racism and tribalism is not human nature.
Native Americans are still fighting.
If we all are in this together, then whites learn to listen to the grievances others have because of what they have done and keep doing instead of deciding you can tell everyone how to do things.
If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>
Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.
The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.
I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.
I've met plenty of people. And I say what I do because that is what I have seen And I've seen pretty much all 50 states and most major cities, The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference. And like I have said, I don't see whites saying that only some blacks commit crimes. or that there are some black unwed mothers, so until that is consistently done by whites no one wants to be lectured by someone white about seeing whites as individuals. Institutional racism is still plenty prevalent. You don't get to post make believe like its true.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
By Mia Mercado
Mar 15 2017
The roots of racism run deep. They permeate our culture beyond the existence of racial slurs and persist regardless of our first black president. To see examples of systemic racism, you don’t even need to look far. If you have gone to school, lived in a house, had a job, or been to the doctor, you’ve likely been hurt or helped by institutional racism at some point in your life.
Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is defined as the pattern of social and political systems discriminating against a group of people based on race. If you’re wondering how a school or a bank or any “thing” or “system” can be racist, ask yourself who runs those “things” and “systems.” A government or any other institution is created and run by human beings. While a building or a document cannot itself hold prejudice or beliefs (on account of...they’re made of bricks and/or paper), human beings are more than capable of holding prejudicial beliefs, and in turn, creating systems that reflect those beliefs.
My “But slavery was abolished and hate crimes are illegal” senses are tingling; this is usually the part in the conversation where laws established or struck down are used as examples of why institutional racism can’t exist. If Equal Employment Opportunity Laws make it federally illegal, how can job discrimination based on race persist? Oh, sweet, naive, hypothetical question. Making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If that were the case, murders would never happen and even if they did, they would all be solved and the victim brought justice. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unsolved murders still very much exist. Like, there are whole basic cable channels dedicated to them.
Institution racism is real. Systemic bias exists. Here are just seven examples of how our systems treat people of color differently — and how it shows that institutional racism is still a very real problem.
This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
This is an article written 8 months ago. I don't think institutional racism ended in the past 8 months. Some of us need to quit lying to ourselves about this and others need to quit calling people who tell the truth about how such things exist racists. So you look throughout our history, whites have always been looked at as individuals. Whites have been the ones with the problem recognizing the individuality of others. This argument about individualism is bogus because that is not the intent of the argument. The current argument is used to try forcing others to shut up about the consistent racism that is in our society today.
You continue to confuse me as to what point you are trying to make about Individualism. In your last response you said:
"The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference."
So you are saying that the "system" sees Whites as individuals but gives them a group preference because of their skin color? And I disagree with the accuracy of that statement. If you look at companies or colleges, in both cases they are making concerted efforts to "prefer" the black candidate over equally qualified white candidates. That is documented in the thousands of studies and anyone involved with the hiring or admissions process will tell you the same thing. That is undeniable.
I didn't mean to blur the focus of your OP by bringing in Institutional Racism, but it is closely related and is often glossed over in Racial discussions. I read your study and as I said in my first statement, the author cherry picked certain aspects of Institutional bias that proved his point while ignoring other aspects that contradicted him. For example with respect to college, the author cited the high unemployment rate of Black college grads and claimed that was due to institutional Racism. Could there be other reasons? Such as the Black graduates chose to major in fields not desirable by hiring firms or schools? Or perhaps on average they do not interview well or had significantly lower GPAs and/or fewer accomplishments?
