So Biden Would Not Answer To Why He Never Contacted Portland To Stop The Democrat Riot. Gee, Why? Was He Just Too Busy? Watching Netflix?

Hutch Starskey

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Unbelievable, right? It was a simple question. we all saw it. Mr. Biden, did you call the Governor/Mayor of Oregon/Portland to tell them to tell his supporters to stop burning down Portland?
Biden did not answer. So anyone here wanna guess why? was he watching any particular movie/movies on cable TV?
Was Biden too busy on his PC in his hideaway?
And yet, at least 40% of us are gonna vote for Biden?
:dunno: :dunno:
So Biden Would Not Answer To Why He Never Contacted Portland To Stop The Democrat Riot. Gee, Why? Was He Just Too Busy? Watching Netflix?

He's a private citizen, retard.

Why didn't you call?
He's the Presidential candidate for the Democrat Party. None of the rest of us are. It's amazing to me that you think "I don't need to demonstrate any leadership while asking you to give me the most powerful position on the planet" is a valid position.
He's the Presidential candidate for the Democrat Party. None of the rest of us are. It's amazing to me that you think "I don't need to demonstrate any leadership while asking you to give me the most powerful position on the planet" is a valid position.
So what?
He's not an elected official. He has no more authority in the matter than you or I.
The very idea that he is somehow responsible is simply retarded and comes across as desperate. But then, consider the source.
 

DBA

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The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?
I'll answer this for him. The answer is simple. Nothing except stop any future harm, which we are clearly going out of our way to do now. Trying to right the wrong by punishing a group that was not directly responsible for the harm is certainly NOT the answer. Affirmative action, for example, wrongly harms people who were not necessarily responsible for any wrongdoing. That makes no sense whatsoever and is counter-productive. Maybe those harmed by affirmative action then have rights for retribution? This goes nowhere but down an infinite rabbit hole.
 

Correll

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
 

Slade3200

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The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?
I'll answer this for him. The answer is simple. Nothing except stop any future harm, which we are clearly going out of our way to do now. Trying to right the wrong by punishing a group that was not directly responsible for the harm is certainly NOT the answer. Affirmative action, for example, wrongly harms people who were not necessarily responsible for any wrongdoing. That makes no sense whatsoever and is counter-productive. Maybe those harmed by affirmative action then have rights for retribution? This goes nowhere but down an infinite rabbit hole.
Do either of you play golf? If so, do you think the handicap system is fair and just or no?
 

Slade3200

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?
 

Correll

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
 

Slade3200

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?
 

Correll

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?

I think discriminating in favor of a group, based on race, at the expense of discriminating against another group, based on race, is racist.


I have addressed your point about governments. Very well. Please stop pretending that I have not.
 

Slade3200

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?

I think discriminating in favor of a group, based on race, at the expense of discriminating against another group, based on race, is racist.


I have addressed your point about governments. Very well. Please stop pretending that I have not.
Giving funds, contracts, scholarships and other support to oppressed and agreived groups is not discrimination against whites. You’re not being honest in your presentation or terminology. Blacks were told they can not.... whites are not being told they can not... they just aren’t receiving as much support as those who have been harmed. There is a big difference. You not being able to differentiate between the two and ignorantly calling the latter racist, is absurd.
 

Correll

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?

I think discriminating in favor of a group, based on race, at the expense of discriminating against another group, based on race, is racist.


I have addressed your point about governments. Very well. Please stop pretending that I have not.
Giving funds, contracts, scholarships and other support to oppressed and agreived groups is not discrimination against whites. You’re not being honest in your presentation or terminology. Blacks were told they can not.... whites are not being told they can not... they just aren’t receiving as much support as those who have been harmed. There is a big difference. You not being able to differentiate between the two and ignorantly calling the latter racist, is absurd.

1. Giving limited resources to one group, based on race, means that limited resources are being taken away from another group based on race. That is discrimination in favor of the group getting more and racist discrimination against the group getting less.


2. I am being completely honest in m y presentation and terminology. WE DISAGREE. That is not a matter of presentation or terminology. YOu are just unable to respect any differing points of view.


3. Saying "ignorant" is not a supporting argument.


4. The whites being denied "funds, contracts, scholarships, and other support" today, did nothing to the blacks getting this shit. Indeed, the blacks GETTING the shit, were not the ones wronged. We are punishing people for stuff other people did, to benefit people that has nothing done to them.
 

Slade3200

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?

I think discriminating in favor of a group, based on race, at the expense of discriminating against another group, based on race, is racist.


I have addressed your point about governments. Very well. Please stop pretending that I have not.
Giving funds, contracts, scholarships and other support to oppressed and agreived groups is not discrimination against whites. You’re not being honest in your presentation or terminology. Blacks were told they can not.... whites are not being told they can not... they just aren’t receiving as much support as those who have been harmed. There is a big difference. You not being able to differentiate between the two and ignorantly calling the latter racist, is absurd.

1. Giving limited resources to one group, based on race, means that limited resources are being taken away from another group based on race. That is discrimination in favor of the group getting more and racist discrimination against the group getting less.


2. I am being completely honest in m y presentation and terminology. WE DISAGREE. That is not a matter of presentation or terminology. YOu are just unable to respect any differing points of view.


3. Saying "ignorant" is not a supporting argument.


4. The whites being denied "funds, contracts, scholarships, and other support" today, did nothing to the blacks getting this shit. Indeed, the blacks GETTING the shit, were not the ones wronged. We are punishing people for stuff other people did, to benefit people that has nothing done to them.
1. No giving limited resources to one group is not racist. If that’s the case then every recipient of public funding that gets more than another program could be called discriminatory. Nice try but that argument is complete bullshit

2. I appreciate different points of view. What I don’t appreciate is deceitful spin and rhetoric which is how I view what you’re doing.

3. This is a valid point for debate but we are still stuck on the fundamental issue of whether it’s justified for the government to provide support to the black community to address theharm that was caused. This is why I went backed and asked if you found any efforts justifiable back in the 60’s. You dodged giving a real answer to that. “I don’t know“ doesn’t count
 

Correll

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You couldnt
1. For it to be discrimination it need to unjust or prejudicial treatment. I don’t believe it is so. You can make the case that it causes harm to white who don’t get accepted but that’s like saying helping the town woth contaminated water is harmful for the neighboring town that didn’t get the same funding and support.

It is obvious unjust for white students to lose out on college slots to black students based on race.

Yes, it does cause harm to white students who don't get accepted, or don't get into the better schools, or don't get assistance, or ect. ect ect. Obvoiusly.




2. the people responsible are not people. It was our government and societies laws that lasted for generations and had a real and lasting effect. How do you suggest we right those wrongs?
The people responsible were people. How to right those long ago wrongs? By giving equality before the law for the last 50 years and making blacks fully equal citizens in the greatest country in the world.

Not by punishing white people today, for something other people did a long time ago, based on the fact that some of them have similar skin tones.


3. the fight against it and the pushback to their cries when they complain about modern day issues is what fuels the fire. Not the laws and movement enacted to improve the situation. The election of Obama was a great symbolic achievement for the black community but it also brought a wave of racial hate that had been burrowing for a long time. I was and still am very disappointed about how much of this crap still exists in our society.

The election of Obama did not bring a wave of racial hate. It brought a wave of horrific wace baiting where normal partisan opposition was falsely labeled wacism, by vile liars.



But, thank you for not denying the increased division and hatred that these actions are causing.


Time to stop them, before they totally tear this nation apart. If it is not already too late.
You couldn’t be any more off base... no it wasn’t just bad people it was our laws, our government our society that oppressed a race for generations and still has lasting effects in today’s society. Let that sink in. Also you ignored my central point about the water. Is providing funding and support for that down discrimination against other towns? Yes or no


I ignored a bad analogy.

BUT for your analogy to be accurate, it is not just one town with bad water. There are many towns that have "bad water" ie historical reasons for poverty and hopelessness.


YOu just want to ignore the white ones and only focus on the black and brown ones.


And we have. For generations. And it has put enormous burdens on the poor and middle class whites of this country, to the point that white males are seeing their life spans SHRINK.


Time to stop the injustice. Time to stop the racism and discrimination.
Our government had policies that impacted the health wealth social standing and education of an entire race of people for generations. That’s is not far off from my example and is deserving of something more than simply changing discriminatory laws. Come on dude, this isn’t very complicated to understand. Simple morals and ethics

"impacted"? Want to vague that up a bit?

And if they deserved anything beyond legal equality, they had it, for 70 years and they tapped out that well of white guilt.


We, current day whites, have paid enough and taken enough shit, that increasingly we are done with that.

Time to end that racist discrimination against white people. I want equality and equal protection before the Law for my people.
Can you really not recognized the “impact“ that generations of discriminatory laws from slavery through Jim Crow Have had on the black community? You claim to understand and be aware so prove it and tell me what impact you think that history had on the black community back in the 60s and now today

IMO, the primary forces "impacting" the black community today, are not old forces from generations ago, but far more current factors that bury older influences under there much larger "ripples".


Nothing that happened to my Great, great, grand father, really looms very big in my life. I guess it is good that they decided to move to America, but beyond that, I cannot trace any "impact" of any hardship he faced, that still impacts me.
Your lack of comprehension is really starting to make me question if my time is being well spent talking to you. You are comparing yourself a white person and the way your grandfather was treated with the systemic oppression of an entire race of people. You can’t cherry pick and compare these situations like that. The things I’m say are not even really debatable. When you have generations of black families systematically oppressed, whom are not given the same opportunities to work, educate, accumulate wealth, or integrate in society then the results are extremely high percentages of poverty. Poverty results in a culture of other problems including drugs and criminal activity. You have to see how all this relates, right? You have to see how our laws and government and country was responsible for that, right?

My point is that barring significant accumulations of wealth, which was rare, the hardships of one generation do NOT impact the next, white or black.


Your pretense that blacks are so alien that we cannot examine their experience in comparison to our own, I reject.


The Great Depression, WWII, there were hard on my dad's generation. The impact of those hardships were not transferred to me. I did not suffer from them. It would be lame of me to pretend I did.


WWI? Previous bad times? Not even memories. The Civil War? The oppression of being Scots in the United Kingdom? Ancient history to me. If I was a lib, I guess I could use that as an excuse to be an ass to brits today.


But, I'm not that person. That is not my game. Hell, my dad did not even raise me to hate Japanese people, and he had cause.
You reject my pretense because you lack comprehension of the effects of history. Yes many white people suffered during WW1 and the depression. Many poor white immigrants moved here woth nothing. Imagine that experience while also being oppressed as a Black in America. You’re completely out of touch if you don’t think past generations impact future generations. How many family’s built a business and then passed it along to their kids? How many kids went to the same school as their parents. Or even had the opportunity to go to college? How many kids got a job at their fathers company or through a contact that their father had? How many kids Inherited houses and wealth from their parents? The answer is many white families and few to no blacks if we are looking back generations. That’s because Blacks were not legally given the ability or opportunity to build anything. How are you not processing this? This isn’t political it’s just facts and history

I disagree with your premise and I explained why. You going straight to your assumption that it must be because I don't understand, is just you having a closed mind.


My point stands. Yes, I understand about how wealth can accumulate across generations. I also understand how easily it can NOT do so, and not just for blacks.


Yes, a some whites got jobs because their families connections. For the last 50 years, that has been more than balanced by blacks being discriminated in favor of by legally required and enforced racist discrimination.

AND more and more, blacks are in a position to use those types of connections themselves.


It is time to stop discrimination against whites, especially poor and middle class whites, who have done nothing to deserve this, and who have benefitted little from past injustices, if at all.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge that white recurved asvantages through our legal system to gain wealth, power and employment that blacks could not because of a racist legal system. But then you call laws put in place to fix some of the damage those laws caused, racist discrimination against whites. I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. Racist discrimination is defined as unjust. Given our history and disgusting racist elements of our society those laws were more than justified. And just because those loses have been in place for 50 years that doesn’t mean all is good. We can debate that sure, but the fact you call those laws racist and unjust just shows that you don’t understand why they are justified. It would be my argument that your attitude and perspective clearly shows why those laws are just and why they should still be in place. We have come a long way since the civil rights act but there are still many people like you who just don’t get it... we still have a long way to go

Discriminating against a group of people, because of race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is justified does not change that. That you support it, makes you racist.


We do have a long way to go. We have a massive system of system racist discrimination and racism operating in our society today, crushing the hope and dreams of millions.
Race discrimination implies unjust actions. If an oppressed group is singled out to rectify wrongs done tot hem then those actions are just so that would not be racist discrimination

Race discrimination clearly is defined as discrimination based on race. That you think it is justified and thus support it, makes you a supporter of racist discrimination.


If looking at it clearly bothers you, then maybe you should think about this some, more deeply or seriously than you have in the past.
I’m not going to keep repeating myself. The definitions of racist and discrimination includes unjust treatment. If an action is justified because of wrong doing then it isn’t as you describe. You like to ignore that point but that doesn’t mean it isn't there.

Well, i will keep repeating my self. Discriminating against a group of people based on race, is racist discrimination.


That you think it is "Just" because of "reasons", just means that you are a supporter of racism.
This is where you are off. The laws are discriminating because of race, they are giving preferential treatment because of generations of oppression and harm that has been inflicted on a race of people.

same thing happens in court in a daily basis where people are harmed, they sue the government and they get paid by the state

Right. It's trying to balance out past racist discrimination with racist discrimination in the other direction.

We are in agreement about what is happening. YOU just support it and want to call it something else, because sophism.
I’m asking you how to balance it out without using what you are calling racist discrimination. The only answer you’ve given is do nothing. Is that still your answer?

Giving someone equality is "nothing"? I suspect people denied equality would disagree with you.

Maybe try giving me a more concrete example.


Pick a specific discrimination that you would have wanted to see back then.
yes giving people equality is nothing when it comes to righting wrongs. That’s like saying passing somebody and not hitting their car is doing something good. No, it’s whats is supposed to happen. But if you hit somebody you pay for the damage. If you knock somebody down you help them up. If you oppress a race of people and cause them to be set back financially and educationally for generations... you DO SOMETHING about it. Stopping the oppression does not count as doing something to right the wrong. How do you not get this?! WTF

Let's talk about bussing.


The people that deprived the black schools of funding, presumably were evul racist long dead by the 70s. The people that paid the price for bussing, were white children denied their neighbor hood schools and bussed long distances.

And how did it work out? A disaster. Public schools drop in quality, whites flee the cities and/or public schools, and everyone suffers


The alternative would have been to just try to get more money to poor schools, regardless of race.
I agree. would you care to address the points I made?

I already did. You as an individual is different than "you" a group.

I further demonstrated the different with an example, ie bussing. The children spending 2 hours a day on a bus, for "equality", were being held responsible for something someone else did. And that was not just.

Do you want me to make the same point again? How many times do I have to make the same point, before you stop pretending to not get it?
I’ve ask multiple times what the government should have done to right the wrongs and make up for the harm they imposed on Blacks. You said nothing. I addressed that and you replied with bussing was bad. So to be clear are you sticking with your Nothing answer. The government should not be accountable to do anything for the harm they imposed on the black community?

I gave an example and in the example I suggested a non racial approach that would have addressed the harm, but not penalize whites based on race.

Would you like to address that, or pretend that I said "nothing" some more?

Also, stop pretending that I have not addressed the difference between individuals and governments many times now.
Your proposition was no nothing and then when pressed you said fund low income schools, something I agree with. Is that all? Do you think those two things is enough to hold the government accountable for the harm their policies caused?

That was all in the context of the one limited example.


Are you seriously pretending to not understand the concept of specific examples to limit and clarify more vague and general policy discussions?


Cause, that would make you really stupid. And I don't think you are really stupid.


I think you are very partisan and hence playing some rhetorical games.


So, knock that stupid shit off.


AND, I've addressed your pretense that "government" pays the price. You don't get to pretend I did not.


Knock that even stupider shit off.
I’m all about specific examples. That’s what I’ve been trying to get out of you however you been giving vague and off topic responses.

Since we have a disagreement on what constitutes racist discrimination I’m trying to find out what specifically you would propose if anything to account for the harm that our government inflicted on the black community. First you said changing the laws was enough, and then you said fund schools in low income neighborhoods.

you seem to think that directly addressing the harmed party is racist. You seem to be holding our government to a different standard than we hold ourselves when we inflict harm on others.

where am I wrong?

I think discriminating in favor of a group, based on race, at the expense of discriminating against another group, based on race, is racist.


I have addressed your point about governments. Very well. Please stop pretending that I have not.
Giving funds, contracts, scholarships and other support to oppressed and agreived groups is not discrimination against whites. You’re not being honest in your presentation or terminology. Blacks were told they can not.... whites are not being told they can not... they just aren’t receiving as much support as those who have been harmed. There is a big difference. You not being able to differentiate between the two and ignorantly calling the latter racist, is absurd.

1. Giving limited resources to one group, based on race, means that limited resources are being taken away from another group based on race. That is discrimination in favor of the group getting more and racist discrimination against the group getting less.


2. I am being completely honest in m y presentation and terminology. WE DISAGREE. That is not a matter of presentation or terminology. YOu are just unable to respect any differing points of view.


3. Saying "ignorant" is not a supporting argument.


4. The whites being denied "funds, contracts, scholarships, and other support" today, did nothing to the blacks getting this shit. Indeed, the blacks GETTING the shit, were not the ones wronged. We are punishing people for stuff other people did, to benefit people that has nothing done to them.
1. No giving limited resources to one group is not racist. If that’s the case then every recipient of public funding that gets more than another program could be called discriminatory. Nice try but that argument is complete bullshit

2. I appreciate different points of view. What I don’t appreciate is deceitful spin and rhetoric which is how I view what you’re doing.

3. This is a valid point for debate but we are still stuck on the fundamental issue of whether it’s justified for the government to provide support to the black community to address theharm that was caused. This is why I went backed and asked if you found any efforts justifiable back in the 60’s. You dodged giving a real answer to that. “I don’t know“ doesn’t count

1. If the decision to give the resources is based on race, it's racist. Any recipient that gets public funding because of being a member of privileged group, is discriminating against everyone not a member of that group.


2. Your inability to respect my views, based solely on me not agreeing with you, is you not being able to respect other points of view.

3. And you do it again. YOu ignore that I addressed that, AND that I gave an example to clarify. The white children who paid the price in the BUSSING policy, were not responsible for the blacks schools being poor. But they were the ones held responsible. IF you managed to give the bill to the dead politicians who were responsible, that might have been different. But instead, white children had to pay the price.

Stop pretending that I did not address that point. This is like the 4th time you've done that, ON THIS POINT.
 

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