Sick and tired of US debate on raising the min. wage.

[impuretrash]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

boo hoo the poor mythological creature

Real life

what about the poor Black transgender muslim with 13 disabled children who now has to pay double the price for groceries from Kroger?

WHAT ABOUT THEY/THEM?!

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Asclepias]

I'm in the middle. Those that have skills can demand a higher wage in the market. Those without skills should be paid a minimum wage. I think a better proposal would be to offer free education to those that wish to gain skills that will take them out of the minimum wage bracket. Everyone pays their taxes and all boats rise with the tide.

 

[DGS49]

The two question that proponents fail to answer adequately:

Where does the extra money come from? The employer cannot just dip into his pocket and pay it. It has to come from the customers. So maybe most employers will weather the storm, but would you pay $25 for lunch for two at a fast food joint? I wouldn't. Pay $50 for dinner for two (no alcohol) at a restaurant? I wouldn't.


Second, why $15? Why not $50? If higher wages mean prosperity, why be niggardly about it?

I PREDICT the $15 MW will not be here soon...probably five years out, and there could be regional differences. Those people who are making $7.25 now and expecting a 107% pay hike are going to be sorely disappointed.

Whenever the price of any commodity is increased beyond its actual economic value, three things inevitably follow: The consumers of that commodity use less of it, they seek alternatives to using it, and a black market is created to meet the demand. Doesn't matter whether it is potato chips or human labor; the result is the same.

 

[hadit]

Most workers of course do not make 7.25 an hour as we all know, most are making btwn 8-12 an hour, with 12.00 being the standard.

Why do you insist on government intervention when the free market has already adjusted real wages up?

Several million low income people will not have any job thanks to the $15 min wage

hardly since most are already paying that much it only shows how far behind the federal min wage is.

Since most are already paying that much, why do we even NEED a federal MW? If it's that far behind and wages have surpassed it, do we really need to double it? Sounds like we're looking for reasons to keep it around.

 

[Andylusion]

But I won’t pay $15 an hour for someone to sit on my couch and watch movies while my kids sleep.

Last time I checked--babysitters are not subject to minimum wage laws--I get your point and agree whole heartedly however.

Well yes they are actually. If I opened a babysitting service, where I employed teen girls to do babysitting jobs, I would be required to pay them the minimum wage.

And that by the way, is why there are very few babysitting companies. The last one I looked up, was only available in extremely expensive areas.

In my experience which is extensive, most people do not hire baby sitters through a service. We use teens in our own neighborhoods. These teens, do not make minimum wage and do not pay taxes either.

.... so you agree with me? Because that was kind of my point. There is no wide spread babysitting services businesses out there, specifically because it would be too expensive, and thus no one would use them.

That's the whole point. And the article I listed, was explaining that. My own sister who has children, said that she had a couple of babysitters a few times, until she just realized it was way too expensive.

Now she had kid swaps with her friends. She hasn't paid for a babysitter in almost 10 years.

If you were in Sweden right now, you would say the exact same thing about house painting. You would be saying in my experience which is extensive, most people do not hire painters through a service. We use teens to paint houses, and they do not make the minimum wage, or pay taxes.

How do I know this?

Lee Ohanian on the Great Recession and the Labor Market - Econlib

Lee Ohanian of UCLA talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about the recession, the recovery, and the state of labor market. Ohanian describes the unusual aspects of this recession and recovery in the United States as shown by the labor market and the unusual performance of hours worked...

www.econtalk.org

Economist Lee Ohanian:

Do you know why we don't have a home painting industry in Sweden? And he said: One of my colleagues estimated how much I would have to earn in order to pay a painter $1 after taxes. So, the Reader's Digest version is: marginal tax rates are so high that one would have to earn something like $18 or $19 if their painter was to receive $1 after taxes. So, the homeowner is going to be taxed once, and then the home painter is going to be taxed. So: we all paint our own houses because it's way too expensive.​

Now in that particular case, the reason was specifically taxes. The cost of taxes in Sweden means that if your house needs painted, you do it yourself, or pay a teen. Only the rich and wealthy can afford to hire a business.

But the same logic applies. If the minimum wage is too high, then business is destroyed, and jobs don't exist. You end up hiring teens.

So yes, no doubt you hire teens, and don't use a professional service, because it costs too much with the minimum wage. I agree.

 

[Andylusion]

Most workers of course do not make 7.25 an hour as we all know, most are making btwn 8-12 an hour, with 12.00 being the standard.

Why do you insist on government intervention when the free market has already adjusted real wages up?

Several million low income people will not have any job thanks to the $15 min wage

hardly since most are already paying that much it only shows how far behind the federal min wage is.

Since most are already paying that much, why do we even NEED a federal MW? If it's that far behind and wages have surpassed it, do we really need to double it? Sounds like we're looking for reasons to keep it around.

The reason we need a minimum wage raised up, even when most of the big companies are already paying almost as much.... is because the left-wing is in favor of the wealthy, and they hate the poor.

See, without a minimum wage, new startup companies could compete with Amazon, by undercutting their prices with cheaper labor.

By having a $15/hour Minimum wage, the left-wing can force all those less wealthy new startup businesses into bankruptcy, and ensure the increased wealth and riches of the elite.

As I've said for over 15 years.... the left-wing contrary to their claims, are the most elitist people in this country, and the most in the pockets of the wealthy.

 

[Grumblenuts]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

boo hoo the poor mythological creature

Real life

what about the poor Black transgender muslim with 13 disabled children who now has to pay double the price for groceries from Kroger?

WHAT ABOUT THEY/THEM?!

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, dueling fallacies. And what? You're being too emotional about this or too absurd?

 

[Andylusion]

Long Beach just mandated a 4 dollar raise for grocery store owners. Two major grocery stores promptly closed leaving all employees out of a job and out of job benefits.

If they need a $7.25 minimum wage to stay in business, they deserve to close

Good. The two biggest grocery stores closed. Yaaay. The people are out of a job. The neighborhood now has to go elsewhere to shop. Meanwhile the Kroger company will not feel a thing. It's a win lose in all the right places.

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

That's fine.... but just understand that if every business that deserves to fail, fails, then you will have mass unemployment and a great depression.

The people in Greece, said the same thing, which is why they had a minimum wage that was tied to inflation, and the result was the entire country imploded.

Guess what they did? They cut the minimum wage. Guess what happened? Unemployment in the 30% range, started to fall.

Again, you can say that, but them failing just means people are unemployed.

See you seem to be operating under the strange idea that if all the companies that can't pay $15/hour fail... then all those unemployed people will just magically find jobs that pay $15/hour. No. That's not how it works. If your labor isn't worth $15/hours, then you just stay unemployed.

You can mandate a minimum wage, sure. But you can't mandate that customers pay $15/hour for labor that isn't worth $15/hours. Thus those people just.... don't have a job.

Save me the drama

Minimum wage has been increased for 80 years. Business survived, the market adjusted.

We have not increased the wage in eleven years. Low wage workers have suffered. They have used debt to replace wages that haven kept up with inflation

That's kind of MY POINT. We've played it your way. Why isn't it working? The first Fight For $15, started in 2012. That was just two years after we increased the minimum wage from $5.25 to $7.25.

That was a large increase. Why didn't it help? Why didn't the economy boom? Why was the recovery the worst recovery in US history?

In fact, why was there an economic crash at all? Why didn't your newly more wealthy employees earning all this extra money, boast the economy?

In fact, why did unemployment increase every single year the minimum wage went up? Why did unemployment only fall, the year AFTER the minimum wage did not go up?

Why were people screaming to raise the minimum wage again in just 2 years?

Why is it, none of your claims about all the benefits of increasing the minimum wage, ever happen?

"low wage workers have suffered"... right and we've been following your plan. So explain yourself?

 

[impuretrash]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

boo hoo the poor mythological creature

Real life

what about the poor Black transgender muslim with 13 disabled children who now has to pay double the price for groceries from Kroger?

WHAT ABOUT THEY/THEM?!

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, dueling fallacies. And what? You're being too emotional about this or too absurd?

save your lectures for rightwinger. He's the one that appealed to emotion with his hypothetical black family who has to borrow to pay for college. All I did was stack up a few more adjectives to create an even more pitiful victim. Or are you denying the personhood of the black trans muslim community?

Teen is trans, black and Muslim — for her ‘America is a dangerous place’

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — For a 17-year-old, Josephine Hoskins says “I don’t want to die” a lot.

herald-review.com

 

[hadit]

But I won’t pay $15 an hour for someone to sit on my couch and watch movies while my kids sleep.

Last time I checked--babysitters are not subject to minimum wage laws--I get your point and agree whole heartedly however.

Well yes they are actually. If I opened a babysitting service, where I employed teen girls to do babysitting jobs, I would be required to pay them the minimum wage.

And that by the way, is why there are very few babysitting companies. The last one I looked up, was only available in extremely expensive areas.

In my experience which is extensive, most people do not hire baby sitters through a service. We use teens in our own neighborhoods. These teens, do not make minimum wage and do not pay taxes either.

.... so you agree with me? Because that was kind of my point. There is no wide spread babysitting services businesses out there, specifically because it would be too expensive, and thus no one would use them.

That's the whole point. And the article I listed, was explaining that. My own sister who has children, said that she had a couple of babysitters a few times, until she just realized it was way too expensive.

Now she had kid swaps with her friends. She hasn't paid for a babysitter in almost 10 years.

If you were in Sweden right now, you would say the exact same thing about house painting. You would be saying in my experience which is extensive, most people do not hire painters through a service. We use teens to paint houses, and they do not make the minimum wage, or pay taxes.

How do I know this?

Lee Ohanian on the Great Recession and the Labor Market - Econlib

Lee Ohanian of UCLA talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about the recession, the recovery, and the state of labor market. Ohanian describes the unusual aspects of this recession and recovery in the United States as shown by the labor market and the unusual performance of hours worked...

www.econtalk.org

Economist Lee Ohanian:

Do you know why we don't have a home painting industry in Sweden? And he said: One of my colleagues estimated how much I would have to earn in order to pay a painter $1 after taxes. So, the Reader's Digest version is: marginal tax rates are so high that one would have to earn something like $18 or $19 if their painter was to receive $1 after taxes. So, the homeowner is going to be taxed once, and then the home painter is going to be taxed. So: we all paint our own houses because it's way too expensive.​

Now in that particular case, the reason was specifically taxes. The cost of taxes in Sweden means that if your house needs painted, you do it yourself, or pay a teen. Only the rich and wealthy can afford to hire a business.

But the same logic applies. If the minimum wage is too high, then business is destroyed, and jobs don't exist. You end up hiring teens.

So yes, no doubt you hire teens, and don't use a professional service, because it costs too much with the minimum wage. I agree.

High MW proponents routinely ignore human nature. They paint fabulous fantasy landscapes of well off people happily moving through life because the government forced the evil bottomless money pits called businesses to pay them high wages and those businesses didn't react at all, just happily paid the higher wages <insert sound of needle scratching across a vinyl disc here>. Reality is somewhat different. Raise business's costs too high, too fast and they do things to make the increase less painful:

1. If the owner of the business is well off and ready to retire, he might sell the business and the new owner will lay off people as he absorbs it into his business.
2. If he can't sell, he might just close up shop and put everyone out of work.
3. If he wants to continue operating and doesn't have a high profit margin, he'll look at the lower paid jobs in his organization and start eliminating them. He might lay off people, he might bust full time workers down to part time so he can lower labor costs by cutting benefits, he might automate jobs that now cost too much.
4. If he can, he might offshore operations that can be done remotely. Suddenly customer support calls will be answered by a guy with a heavy Indian accent who calls himself "Bob" and who reads off a screen with no understanding of your real problem or how to fix it.
5. If the market will bear it, he might raise prices.

All of these things tend to offset the supposed gains enjoyed in the fantasy, and naturally the end result is a rapid return to square one, where the usual suspects are yelling that the MW is just too low.

I always ask the obvious of those who seem to believe we can just raise wages by fiat with no consequences: Why not just bump the MW to $100/hr and eliminate poverty altogether?

 

[hadit]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

No one expects the breadwinner of the family to stay at MW for very long. Why do you assume a black man with college aged kids is still working at MW and can't get a better job? That sounds racist to me.

 

[tigerred59]

hardly since most are already paying that much it only shows how far behind the federal min wage is.

To me it shows the stupidity of pinheads in government who cannot keep up with events on the ground.

but if the government workers must justify their existence why put the min wage higher than where the free market says it belongs?

When I did fed or state work I made forty five to fifty an hour so I guess the federal min wage is for trash collectors and terlit plungers?

I was shocked when Biden raised it to 15 for federal workers???????? Who in their right mind is working for the federal gov and making less than 15 and hour???? A WHOLE LOT OF MINORITIES....MY FRIEND WORKED IN SSI IN TENN. SHE WAS MAKING LESS THAN 15 AFTER 30 YEARS OF SERVICE

With all due respect.... I have no degree, no education, no skills, no training, nothing. I've worked my way up without any help from anyone anywhere, and last year I was making $20/hour.

If your friends are making minimum wage, to the point that you have to praise Biden, or any other dumb politicians, for making a law that fixes their lives.....

Again, with all due respect.... that makes you stupid. Why are you wasting your life, waiting around for other people to fix your wages? What have you been doing all these years?

Get off your butt, and start moving up the income ladder.

The lady across the street from me, was babysitting out of her condo. She made over $500 per week, plus additional pay if people wanted their kids watched on the weekends. But your friends were working for minimum wage for the government? What is wrong with your friends?

Honestly, this is idiotic. You can buy a lawn mower.... a regular $50 Lawn mower, and make easily $50 to $100 PER LAWN.... for mowing lawns all summer long.

How do I know this? I know a guy that now runs a million dollar lawn care service, who started out in high school mowing lawns.

Can you push a mower? But instead you are going to waste your life away at some dumb government job, complaining that you are not making $15/hour?

See this is why people in your world are poor, and people in my world are rich. The people in your community will always be poor, as long as they sit around waiting on others, and worse than others, Government, to fix their lives.

Government will not fix your life. And long as you pretend that Biden is going to make your life better, your life will always suck, and you'll always be trying to find someone to blame, like Trump or Mitt Romney, or Bush, or whoever, for the fact your life sucks.

The nine scariest words in the English language--"I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Ronald Reagan.

And the worst words to hear from the GOP, "Im anti gov. Big Corp, do what the hell you want and the Dem's and the American ppl will bail you OUT!!! Something we do over and over and over.

 

[tigerred59]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

No one expects the breadwinner of the family to stay at MW for very long. Why do you assume a black man with college aged kids is still working at MW and can't get a better job? That sounds racist to me.

You whites need to get with black reality......black people have to work twice as hard for room at the table and too often is paid less than whites. I got the reciepts and I know what I'm talking about. Stop assuming shit unless you walk in our shoes.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

black people have to work twice as hard for room at the table

It's because you're obese.

 

[tigerred59]

Let’s use the Big Mac Economic Index

The Big Mac was introduced in 1969 for 49 cents. The minimum wage worker making it was paid $1.60.
He could buy 3.25 Big Macs an hour.

Today that Big Mac costs $3.99 and the minimum wage worker makes $7.25.
He can’t even afford two Big Macs an hour

3.25 Big Macs would cost $13 an hour to buy. In line with a $15 an hour wage.

What the McDonald's Menu Looked Like the Year You Were Born

The McD's menu has changed so much—here's a look at the highlights.

www.tasteofhome.com

Right, and today, the cost of labor is dramatically higher than just the cost of the wage.

View attachment 452593

The cost of taxes and benefits on top of the base wage, dramatically increase the cost of employment.

What this means is that in 1969, the price of a big mac was much lower because the cost of paying employees was lower.

Further, that cost of labor filters into every material used in the making of the product. For example, the employees at the meet packing plant were paid less, thus the cost of beef was less. The employees at the bread bakery were paid less, thus the cost of buns was lower.

Every single step in the supply chain filters down to the customer.

This is why the claims are ridiculous, because the moment you raise the minimum wage, the cost of the products will adjust up accordingly.

For example in Denmark where they pay McDonald's employees around $20/hour, they seem to ignore the fact that they also charge almost $20 for a "value meal". In fact, a hot dog in Denmark will run you $12.

This is the limitations of the Big Mac index. While the cost of the burger alone, may seem only incrementally more expensive, the cost of everything else has dramatically changed.

View attachment 452601

This is a receipt from a friend who lived in Germany, and moved (happily) to the US with her husband.

One order of 20 pct Chicken nuggets, and 3 ice teas.

$19. 15.50 Euros is about $19.

See? This is the problem with all minimum wage arguments. You believe, falsely, that if you increase the wage, that somehow all the prices will remain the same. Wrong. The prices will adjust. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the bill.

News Flash, IF PRICES ARE GOING UP ANYWAYS, THAN WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DAMN ARGUMENT????? SO WHAT IF THE RAISING OF THE MIN WAGE WON'T MEAN A DAMN THING, SO WHAT.....WE'RE STILL PAYING HIGH PRICES FOR SHIT REGARDLESS

 

[tigerred59]

black people have to work twice as hard for room at the table

It's because you're obese.

View attachment 452615

CORRECTION: A BEAST AND KICKIN CONSERVATIVE ASS

 

[Andylusion]

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Exactly!

Who cares if unskilled workers can never find a first time job?
Who cares if po black folk don't have decent food available near their homes?

Fuck all y'all, eh?

Who cares if Kroger workers have to borrow $10,000 a year to pay for college because Kroger wont pay a wage over $7.25?

Who cares if the taxpayer has to subsidize the food and housing of that struggling black family because Kroger won’t pay over $7.25 an hour?

No one expects the breadwinner of the family to stay at MW for very long. Why do you assume a black man with college aged kids is still working at MW and can't get a better job? That sounds racist to me.

Yeah, but they do. There are lots of people who simply don't want to work hard.

Again, I pointed out repeatedly, you can easily buy a $50 lawn mower, and make $50 to $100 a lawn during the summer. Easily. But that takes work, and effort, and you don't get paid breaks, and a straight 8 hour shift. You have to get the job done. You have to do the work, to get the money, and if that means staying on the job for 12 hours one day, then you stay working for 12 hours until you get all the lawns mowed.

They don't want to go out in the heat, and get stuff done. They want to stay in an air conditioned building, sipping free soft drinks all day, and complaining they should be paid more.

This is typical left-wing ideology, that everyone should have the same outcome, without putting in the same effort, or same work.

 

[tigerred59]

Long Beach just mandated a 4 dollar raise for grocery store owners. Two major grocery stores promptly closed leaving all employees out of a job and out of job benefits.

If they need a $7.25 minimum wage to stay in business, they deserve to close

Good. The two biggest grocery stores closed. Yaaay. The people are out of a job. The neighborhood now has to go elsewhere to shop. Meanwhile the Kroger company will not feel a thing. It's a win lose in all the right places.

If Kroger cannot operate without $7.25 wages
They deserve to fail

Never put them out of business before. I guess people just keep eating groceries. Who knew?

see this is the shit that keeps wages down.....ppl gonna lose their jobs, business's will close, etc......meanwhile, these same big wig motherfuckers is making bank on Wall street, while the workers are working 2 jobs to keep roofs over their heads.....if raising wages to 15 puts a mf out of business...bye bitches.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Let’s use the Big Mac Economic Index

The Big Mac was introduced in 1969 for 49 cents. The minimum wage worker making it was paid $1.60.
He could buy 3.25 Big Macs an hour.

Today that Big Mac costs $3.99 and the minimum wage worker makes $7.25.
He can’t even afford two Big Macs an hour

3.25 Big Macs would cost $13 an hour to buy. In line with a $15 an hour wage.

What the McDonald's Menu Looked Like the Year You Were Born

The McD's menu has changed so much—here's a look at the highlights.

www.tasteofhome.com

Right, and today, the cost of labor is dramatically higher than just the cost of the wage.

View attachment 452593

The cost of taxes and benefits on top of the base wage, dramatically increase the cost of employment.

What this means is that in 1969, the price of a big mac was much lower because the cost of paying employees was lower.

Further, that cost of labor filters into every material used in the making of the product. For example, the employees at the meet packing plant were paid less, thus the cost of beef was less. The employees at the bread bakery were paid less, thus the cost of buns was lower.

Every single step in the supply chain filters down to the customer.

This is why the claims are ridiculous, because the moment you raise the minimum wage, the cost of the products will adjust up accordingly.

For example in Denmark where they pay McDonald's employees around $20/hour, they seem to ignore the fact that they also charge almost $20 for a "value meal". In fact, a hot dog in Denmark will run you $12.

This is the limitations of the Big Mac index. While the cost of the burger alone, may seem only incrementally more expensive, the cost of everything else has dramatically changed.

View attachment 452601

This is a receipt from a friend who lived in Germany, and moved (happily) to the US with her husband.

One order of 20 pct Chicken nuggets, and 3 ice teas.

$19. 15.50 Euros is about $19.

See? This is the problem with all minimum wage arguments. You believe, falsely, that if you increase the wage, that somehow all the prices will remain the same. Wrong. The prices will adjust. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the bill.

News Flash, IF PRICES ARE GOING UP ANYWAYS, THAN WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DAMN ARGUMENT????? SO WHAT IF THE RAISING OF THE MIN WAGE WON'T MEAN A DAMN THING, SO WHAT.....WE'RE STILL PAYING HIGH PRICES FOR SHIT REGARDLESS

News Flash, IF PRICES ARE GOING UP ANYWAYS, THAN WHAT THE FUCK IS THE DAMN ARGUMENT?????

Water is rushing in through the hole in the boat......quick, make another hole.....DURR

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

black people have to work twice as hard for room at the table

It's because you're obese.

View attachment 452615

CORRECTION: A BEAST AND KICKIN CONSERVATIVE ASS

Yeah, if you could ever get up off your ass....you'd kick some ass