Should Ukraine yield territory to Russia?

[Bleipriester]

No, I do care. There are of course, two sides to every story. I can't say, one side is any more trust worthy than the other.

If the west controlled those regions, are you saying that then, it would be impartial?

'The mouth of a bear': Ukrainian refugees sent to Russia

NARVA, Estonia (AP) — For weeks Natalya Zadoyanova had lost contact with her younger brother Dmitriy, who was trapped in the besieged Ukrainian port city of Mariupol.

apnews.com

". . Nearly 2 million Ukrainians refugees have been sent to Russia, according to both Ukrainian and Russian officials. Ukraine portrays these journeys as forced transfers to enemy soil, which is considered a war crime. Russia calls them humanitarian evacuations of war victims who already speak Russian and are grateful for a new home.. . "

Ukrainian propaganda. They tell us the cities are destroyed but then they want the civilians to stay?

 

[MisterBeale]

Ukrainian propaganda. They tell us the cities are destroyed but then they want the civilians to stay?

Yeah, that narrative does not make a lot of sense to me, since both those regions have their own militias which are fighting in the war against Ukraine's capital, Keiv.

Russia has open borders, and is ostensibly, an open society. Folks can come and go as they please, except men that have been called up to active duty in the partial mobilization.


I am not really buying the Ukrainian, and western narrative, that the Ukrainians are, "forced," to go to Russia. . . because, once there, they would seem to be welcome to leave, if they want. It isn't a closed society like North Korea or Cuba. I do not believe that the Russian government would put resources in keeping Ukrainian families prisoner. I have found no evidence of this. It makes not a lick of sense, there isn't any evidence.

That narrative just doesn't make a lot of sense, only to those who aren't informed would it make sense. Russia does not have enough police and military to, "force," foreigners to be where they do not want to be, in the middle of a war. It is economically unsustainable. Illogical.

 

[MisterBeale]

i would fight to the death if red dawn actually happened & not one inch of my country would yield to the rooooskies.

i say more power to the ukranians & putin can eat shit.

If the militias in the Donbas don't want the rest of the Ukrainian army there? I am not sure what your logic is. . .



Although provoked, there were other things Russia could have done.

Violence is never the answer.

1/26/23 David Swanson on What Russia Could Have Done Instead of Invading Ukraine​

1/26/23 David Swanson on What Russia Could Have Done Instead of Invading Ukraine - The Scott Horton Show

Download Episode. Scott brings on David Swanson to discuss the war in Ukraine. Scott and many of his guests have spent a lot of time explaining all the ways the U.S. and NATO unnecessarily backed Russia into a corner. But there are, in fact, plenty of things Moscow could have…

scotthorton.org

 

[Bleipriester]

Yeah, that narrative does not make a lot of sense to me, since both those regions have their own militias which are fighting in the war against Ukraine's capital, Keiv.

Russia has open borders, and is ostensibly, an open society. Folks can come and go as they please, except men that have been called up to active duty in the partial mobilization.


I am not really buying the Ukrainian, and western narrative, that the Ukrainians are, "forced," to go to Russia. . . because, once there, they would seem to be welcome to leave, if they want. It isn't a closed society like North Korea or Cuba. I do not believe that the Russian government would put resources in keeping Ukrainian families prisoner. I have found no evidence of this. It makes not a lick of sense, there isn't any evidence.

That narrative just doesn't make a lot of sense, only to those who aren't informed would it make sense. Russia does not have enough police and military to, "force," foreigners to be where they do not want to be, in the middle of a war. It is economically unsustainable. Illogical.

It is not even a secret, You can get the info from the pro-west platforms too.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2020/09/22/why-eastern-ukraine-continues-to-support-pro-russian-politicians-in-the-seventh-year-of-war/

 

[Confederate Soldier]

no, with 'a spot at the head of the table', i meant the newspaper headlines.
in reality, we'd have just as much say as the Ukranians, the Russians and the Europeans.
but we Westerners need to be willing to convince Ukraine to choose for peace by giving up conquered territories and encircled territories.

Then all the help, and all the money and weapons and ideology would have been for nothing if you just simply "give up". Ukrainians don't want territory ceded, that's why they are fighting and dying to this day.


Peace at the price of tyranny is slavery, and the Ukrainians know that victory or death is the only option.

 

[peacefan]

Then all the help, and all the money and weapons and ideology would have been for nothing if you just simply "give up". Ukrainians don't want territory ceded, that's why they are fighting and dying to this day.

i disagree somewhat here.
i'd say the support and the efforts of the Ukranians have resulted in the battle lines on the map as they are today.
let's give diplomacy a real chance starting right here, coz an endless war is in no-one's interest.
it's literally a waste of money and lives.

Peace at the price of tyranny is slavery, and the Ukrainians know that victory or death is the only option.

You're calling Russian leadership over the conquered areas "tyranny", but i doubt that that's what it'll be in reality.

 

[krichton]

Given that China has a national debt per capita (in 2020) of $7164, and that that's $84,866 per capita in the US in the same year,
given that China is on technological (near-)parity with us these days,
i believe we should let China have that seat at the head of the negotiating table over the conflict in Ukraine, and i believe that the territories in Donbass all the way into and including Crimea should for local ethnic reasons alone be yielded to Russia.
they *speak* Russian in those "occupied territories".

or we find ourselves guilty of prolonging 2 nations' suffering by many years.

China isn't on a technological parity with the US by a long shot. They can't even manufacture their own microchips, along with a great deal other things. We only think of them as being technologically advanced because they can take technology made elsewhere and manufacture cheap electronic gadgets with it, but they themselves can't create that tech. Why do you think they want to attack Taiwan? As for Ukraine. If Russia attacked Alaska, would you yield over territory? Every tin pot dictator around the world is watching what we are doing and how we are responding to this crisis to see what they can get away with.

 

[peacefan]

China isn't on a technological parity with the US by a long shot. They can't even manufacture their own microchips, along with a great deal other things. We only think of them as being technologically advanced because they can take technology made elsewhere and manufacture cheap electronic gadgets with it, but they themselves can't create that tech. Why do you think they want to attack Taiwan? As for Ukraine.

i think they want Taiwan because it's occupied by a renegade faction of Chinese (post-WW2 capitalists basically) and only a short distance from the Chinese mainland.

If Russia attacked Alaska, would you yield over territory? Every tin pot dictator around the world is watching what we are doing and how we are responding to this crisis to see what they can get away with.

that's classical uni-polar, outdated, thinking.

i'm more of a multi-polar guy.

 

[Litwin]

You're calling Russian leadership over the conquered areas "tyranny",

it calls THE ORIENTAL DESPOTISM
PS

 

[Confederate Soldier]

i disagree somewhat here.
i'd say the support and the efforts of the Ukranians have resulted in the battle lines on the map as they are today.
let's give diplomacy a real chance starting right here, coz an endless war is in no-one's interest.
it's literally a waste of money and lives.


You're calling Russian leadership over the conquered areas "tyranny", but i doubt that that's what it'll be in reality.

It is a tyranny! The Russians are known to brutally crack down on any opposition to the government, beating protestors, and sentencing them for long term prison time for speaking out against the war. The Russians have repeatedly bombed and shelled and fired missiles on civilian targets all throughout the conflict. Hospitals, schools, playgrounds, homes, apartments, churches... I'd believe they were accidents if they were isolated incidents, but they just keep happening again and again. There is evidence that the Russians have tortured and killed civilians and surrendered soldiers in the occupied areas. There is evidence of slaughters and executions...






You are LYING to yourself if you believe that a man who has kept himself in power for decades via shady loopholes, and has invaded countries before, and now looks like they want to invade another one, isn't going to lead a tyranny in occupied territories.




Death is preferable to peace at the price of chains, whether literal or metaphorical.

 

[Litwin]

 

[Litwin]

It is a tyranny! The Russians are known to brutally crack down on any opposition to the government, beating protestors, and sentencing them for long term prison time for speaking out against the war. The Russians have repeatedly bombed and shelled and fired missiles on civilian targets all throughout the conflict. Hospitals, schools, playgrounds, homes, apartments, churches... I'd believe they were accidents if they were isolated incidents, but they just keep happening again and again. There is evidence that the Russians have tortured and killed civilians and surrendered soldiers in the occupied areas. There is evidence of slaughters and executions...






You are LYING to yourself if you believe that a man who has kept himself in power for decades via shady loopholes, and has invaded countries before, and now looks like they want to invade another one, isn't going to lead a tyranny in occupied territories.




Death is preferable to peace at the price of chains, whether literal or metaphorical.




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[Ringo]

 

[peacefan]

It is a tyranny! The Russians are known to brutally crack down on any opposition to the government, beating protestors, and sentencing them for long term prison time for speaking out against the war. The Russians have repeatedly bombed and shelled and fired missiles on civilian targets all throughout the conflict. Hospitals, schools, playgrounds, homes, apartments, churches... I'd believe they were accidents if they were isolated incidents, but they just keep happening again and again. There is evidence that the Russians have tortured and killed civilians and surrendered soldiers in the occupied areas. There is evidence of slaughters and executions...






You are LYING to yourself if you believe that a man who has kept himself in power for decades via shady loopholes, and has invaded countries before, and now looks like they want to invade another one, isn't going to lead a tyranny in occupied territories.




Death is preferable to peace at the price of chains, whether literal or metaphorical.




View attachment 759682View attachment 759683View attachment 759684

well, over here demonstrators are just ignored by the governments, to turn the demonstrators somewhat violent, so that the government can crack down on 'm with as much force as the Russians would deploy on day #1.

 

[Confederate Soldier]

well, over here demonstrators are just ignored by the governments, to turn the demonstrators somewhat violent, so that the government can crack down on 'm with as much force as the Russians would deploy on day #1.

Never. Here, you don't go to prison for speaking out against a war. You don't go to prison for your political views. You don't go to prison for peaceful protesting. But over there you do.


Violent protests should be cracked down on, but that's the difference between here and their. We crack down when the protestors are dumb enough to be violent, and we put it off until it just can't be put off any more. Over there, they crack down on you no matter what you do.