CDZ Should prisoners be released from jail and prison over the Chinese virus?

[JoeB131]

Gotta' go with Bob on this one.

If you murder a 78 year old woman, ideally, you should be put to death. I favor public hangings, but I guess we have to do lethal injection now.

Under no circumstances is 26 years in prison an appropriate period of time to spend in prison for murdering an old woman...

Again, it's twice what most murderers serve. I will even go so far to say what he did was worse than what that cop in Chicago or that cop in Dallas did.

If you are going to say, "It doesn't matter how hard you work to reform yourself, it doesn't matter how well behaved in prison you are, you have NO HOPE of parole or clemency", then what incentive do we have for prisoners to behave well?

Clearly, we are not going to start doing mass executions. We only execute 20 people a year, and we've still managed to put hundreds of innocent people on death row by mistake.

 

[JoeB131]

And, with luck, he can serve another 26 years as a model prisoner...

And if they shank a few guards, because why not, that would work.

You do realize that the hope of parole is the ONLY thing that keeps these guys behaved, right?

 

[Canon Shooter]

Again, it's twice what most murderers serve.

Well, then, all of those other murderers should be doing more time. The problem isn't that this guy is spending too long in prison, the problem is that other murderers aren't spending enough time there...

I will even go so far to say what he did was worse than what that cop in Chicago or that cop in Dallas did.

I've not been keeping up. Then again, I don't need to when it comes to opining on an appropriate sentence for stabbing an old woman to death...

If you are going to say, "It doesn't matter how hard you work to reform yourself, it doesn't matter how well behaved in prison you are, you have NO HOPE of parole or clemency", then what incentive do we have for prisoners to behave well?

Hmmmmm. While I see the point you're trying to make, I don't know that I can agree with it. Sometimes people fuck up to the point where they give up any expectation of ever living anything which resembles a normal life ever again.

But, to the point you're making, I would not support just letting someone out after "X" amount of years. Instead, if he's truly rehabilitated, let him convince the family of his victim that he should be released. Do that, and then we can talk. Otherwise, I believe such scum should die in prison...

 

[Canon Shooter]

And, with luck, he can serve another 26 years as a model prisoner...

And if they shank a few guards, because why not, that would work.

Well, if they would shank a few guards then they're certainly not ready to be released...

You do realize that the hope of parole is the ONLY thing that keeps these guys behaved, right?

Which is why we need swift application of the death penalty. Someone who murders a 78 year old woman is delusional if they think they should ever be released from prison...

 

[JoeB131]

Well, then, all of those other murderers should be doing more time. The problem isn't that this guy is spending too long in prison, the problem is that other murderers aren't spending enough time there...

No, the problem is that we have a Prison Industrial Complex that puts 2 million people in prison. You have to let people out at a certain point.

I've not been keeping up. Then again, I don't need to when it comes to opining on an appropriate sentence for stabbing an old woman to death...

But, to the point you're making, I would not support just letting someone out after "X" amount of years. Instead, if he's truly rehabilitated, let him convince the family of his victim that he should be released. Do that, and then we can talk. Otherwise, I believe such scum should die in prison...

And if we were talking about Charlie Manson, I'd be totally on board with you. This guy isn't Charlie Manson, he's a guy who got high and stabbed his neighbor he previously did chores for. What he did was wrong, but nowhere near what Manson did.

I would not support letting someone out after x amount of years. It should be based on a number of factors, how hard they've worked to rehabilitate themselves, the quality of their behavior in prison. In fact, the possiblity of parole or clemency is the only thing keeping these guys well-behaved in prison, and that saves the lives of guards and other prison employees.

 

[2aguy]

No...insanity is releasing a man who murdered a 78 year old woman in cold blood, thinking that he won't do it again once he is released....that is insanity.

Do you have any evidence he would? You know, at 64, after 26 years as a model prisoner?

Van Dyke was a police officer responding to a man high on PCP with a knife running through a neighborhood........

Van Dyke didn't know he was on PCP. He started shooting exactly six seconds after leaving his car. If he was in the right, he and his fellow cops wouldn't have had to LIE on their after action reports (which were contradicted when the one tape they didn't manage to erase popped up.)

No, we have so much crime (not just “gun crime”) because we have a society in which we've allowed the family to be attacked and undermined as the basic unit of society, and we've allowed traditional standards or moral and ethical behavior to be undermines and scorned,and we've produced a disproportionate share of our population who have no sense of right and wrong, no sense of good and evil, and who are willing to do great evil, to cause harm to others, for their own selfish purposes. We have a revolving-door “justice” system that increasingly fails to remove the dangerous elements from our society and to protect us from them.

Um, okay, if you say so.

We had our highest crime rates in our history in the 1930's. We had the morality and laws you want. We even outlawed alcohol consumption. And the murder rate in the 1930's was TWICE what it is now.

View attachment 321600
They actually did something sensible in the 1930's.

They passed common sense gun laws.
They repealed prohibition
They created poverty relief programs. Murder went down.

It went back up again starting in the 1960's... but that had nothing to do with morality. It had to do with the easy availability of guns.

....crime in the 1930s went down.....as your own photo shows...

They had intact families in the 1930s....you have been shown that the crime rate went down during the great depression not up.....you have been shown with links to the stats and you still lie about it.

Crime and the Great Recession

During the seventies and eighties, scarcely any newspaper story about rising crime failed to mention that it was strongly linked to unemployment and poverty.

www.city-journal.org

The cultural argument may strike some as vague, but writers have relied on it in the past to explain both the Great Depression’s fall in crime and the sixties’ crime explosion.

Crime exploded mid 1960s because of the increase in fatherless homes in the inner cities....


And as your photo also shows, Before England had extreme gun control they had a low crime and murder rate....so again, guns don't cause or increase the gun crime or murder rate......the culture of the criminal underclass determines the murder rate....

 

[JoeB131]

....crime in the 1930s went down.....as your own photo shows...

They had intact families in the 1930s....you have been shown that the crime rate went down during the great depression not up.....you have been shown with links to the stats and you still lie about it.

Um, yeah, it went down AFTER FDR introduced the new deal and people didn't have to commit crime to put food on the table. The fact they cracked down on guns also helped- a lot.

 

[2aguy]

No...insanity is releasing a man who murdered a 78 year old woman in cold blood, thinking that he won't do it again once he is released....that is insanity.

Do you have any evidence he would? You know, at 64, after 26 years as a model prisoner?

Van Dyke was a police officer responding to a man high on PCP with a knife running through a neighborhood........

Van Dyke didn't know he was on PCP. He started shooting exactly six seconds after leaving his car. If he was in the right, he and his fellow cops wouldn't have had to LIE on their after action reports (which were contradicted when the one tape they didn't manage to erase popped up.)

No, we have so much crime (not just “gun crime”) because we have a society in which we've allowed the family to be attacked and undermined as the basic unit of society, and we've allowed traditional standards or moral and ethical behavior to be undermines and scorned,and we've produced a disproportionate share of our population who have no sense of right and wrong, no sense of good and evil, and who are willing to do great evil, to cause harm to others, for their own selfish purposes. We have a revolving-door “justice” system that increasingly fails to remove the dangerous elements from our society and to protect us from them.

Um, okay, if you say so.

We had our highest crime rates in our history in the 1930's. We had the morality and laws you want. We even outlawed alcohol consumption. And the murder rate in the 1930's was TWICE what it is now.

View attachment 321600
They actually did something sensible in the 1930's.

They passed common sense gun laws.
They repealed prohibition
They created poverty relief programs. Murder went down.

It went back up again starting in the 1960's... but that had nothing to do with morality. It had to do with the easy availability of guns.

You don't know what you are talking about....

Crime in the Great Depression

www.history.com

As the economy showed signs of recovery in 1934-37, the homicide rate went down by 20 percent.
------

Even when the U.S. economy stalled again in 1937-38, homicide rates kept falling, reaching 6.4 per 100,000 by the end of the decade.

 

[2aguy]

....crime in the 1930s went down.....as your own photo shows...

They had intact families in the 1930s....you have been shown that the crime rate went down during the great depression not up.....you have been shown with links to the stats and you still lie about it.

Um, yeah, it went down AFTER FDR introduced the new deal and people didn't have to commit crime to put food on the table. The fact they cracked down on guns also helped- a lot.

No, the murder rate went down because we had intact families at the time....we don't have that now.....

They didn't crack down on guns........since guns were easily accessible by every criminal who wanted them...what they did......they gave the FBI guns and arrested criminals and killed them as well....you know, focusing on actual criminals.....

 

[2aguy]

....crime in the 1930s went down.....as your own photo shows...

They had intact families in the 1930s....you have been shown that the crime rate went down during the great depression not up.....you have been shown with links to the stats and you still lie about it.

Um, yeah, it went down AFTER FDR introduced the new deal and people didn't have to commit crime to put food on the table. The fact they cracked down on guns also helped- a lot.

The FBI was able to arrest and go after criminals in a way the police couldn't in the past.....you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

If you are going to say, "It doesn't matter how hard you work to reform yourself, it doesn't matter how well behaved in prison you are, you have NO HOPE of parole or clemency", then what incentive do we have for prisoners to behave well?

There's no redemption for a cold-blooded murderer. No point in hoping that such an animal can be rehabilitated. No excuse for ever turning an animal like that loose to prey on society again. Not really much excuse, really, once guilt has been sufficiently established, to even allow such an animal to continue wasting oxygen and food any any other resources.

We get that you care for criminals. You care for thieves and murderers and other such animals.

To bad you don't care nearly as much for honest, decent, law-abiding citizens.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You do realize that the hope of parole is the ONLY thing that keeps these guys behaved, right?

The prospect of facing prison, or even death, didn't stop them from committing their crimes. Why should you expect that a much more distant and unlikely prospect of being released would motivate them to behave.

I have a better idea. Put these pieces of subhuman shit down like rabid animals. That will pretty much put an end to any further bad behavior from them.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Well, then, all of those other murderers should be doing more time. The problem isn't that this guy is spending too long in prison, the problem is that other murderers aren't spending enough time there...

No, the problem is that we have a Prison Industrial Complex that puts 2 million people in prison. You have to let people out at a certain point.

No, you really don't.

Certainly there are crime for which life without parole is unwarranted.

Stabbing a 78 year old woman to death is not one of those crimes...

And if we were talking about Charlie Manson, I'd be totally on board with you. This guy isn't Charlie Manson, he's a guy who got high and stabbed his neighbor he previously did chores for. What he did was wrong, but nowhere near what Manson did.

This is fascinating.

You're okay with someone spending a lifetime in prison when he didn't actually kill anyone, but you're in favor of releasing murderers.

That you say someone did something "wrong", when describing the brutal stabbing murder of an old woman, is quite telling. I'm sure I speak for many when I say I'm glad you don't play a pivotal role in the arena of jurisprudence in this country...

 

[JoeB131]

You don't know what you are talking about....

Actually, I do, but never mind... you seem to think bathtubs are more dangerous than guns.

The prospect of facing prison, or even death, didn't stop them from committing their crimes. Why should you expect that a much more distant and unlikely prospect of being released would motivate them to behave.

Because millions of them do, every year. Now, here's the thing, Mormon Bob. We have 2 million people in prison. A truly obscene number, which shows how we have failed as a society. BUt worse off than that, we have another 7 million on probation or parole. In short, their "good behavior" is a major part of that system.

I have a better idea. Put these pieces of subhuman shit down like rabid animals. That will pretty much put an end to any further bad behavior from them.

Yeah, funny thing, I don't think you'd want to live in a world where we execute people without due process.

Let's not forget, a mob in Carthage, Illinois thought that Joseph Smith was a sub-human piece of shit because he was doing all those teenage girls and shot him like a dog.

 

[JoeB131]

No, you really don't.

Certainly there are crime for which life without parole is unwarranted.

Stabbing a 78 year old woman to death is not one of those crimes...

Yes, you really do... You really have to state that the promise of good behavior and reform is something prisoners should strive for... otherwise our prison populations would become unmanageable. As stated above, we have 2 million people in prison and 7 million on probation or parole. By your logic, all 9 million of those people should be in prison, with no hope of parole.

This is fascinating.

You're okay with someone spending a lifetime in prison when he didn't actually kill anyone, but you're in favor of releasing murderers.

No, I'm in favor of looking at each case on it's individual merits. Manson was convicted because - get this - he instigated the murders and planned them. He probably killed a lot of other people who were never found. There was every reason to believe that because we live in a celebrity culture, he'd easily recruit a new "Family" of nuts. (Squeaky Fromme tried to assassinate Gerald Ford five years after Manson went to jail.)

Mr. Flowers, on the other hand, had been a model prisoner,

It will STILL be up to a parole board to determine if he is actually released. Contrary to the way Mormon Bob is trying to present it, he isn't walking the streets with all the other darkies who terrify him.

Monday Morning Thoughts: Tulare DA Pushes Back against Governor Commutation

Tulare DA Tim Ward is the Secretary-Treasurer of the conservative California District Attorneys Association. A little over a week ago, California Governor Gavin Newsom announced he was granting 5 par

www.davisvanguard.org

While the crime committed was a bad one, there are several factors here that the governor likely considered when deciding Mr. Flowers was worthy of commutation, over the objections of the DA’s office.

First, the crime occurred 26 years ago and Mr. Flowers was convicted in November 1996—nearly 24 years ago. That means he has been incarcerated for 25 years.

Second, he is now 64 years of age, which greatly reduces his chances of recidivating.

Third, the governor’s press release notes: “Mr. Flowers’s commutation application was reviewed by the Board of Parole Hearings, which voted at an en banc meeting to recommend a clemency grant.”

Furthermore, “The California Supreme Court also made a recommendation for a clemency grant, a process required by the California Constitution for cases in which the applicant has been convicted of more than one felony.”

Fifth, he will have to go back to a parole board to determine whether he is actually released.

The governor notes that a correctional counselor commended Mr. Flowers for his positive attitude: “[Mr. Flowers’s] behavior is indicative of a positive orientation and should be considered when evaluating his eligibility for participation in future programming opportunities.”

And a correctional officer praised Mr. Flowers for his “positive attitude and work ethic.”

 

[JoeB131]

There's no redemption for a cold-blooded murderer. No point in hoping that such an animal can be rehabilitated. No excuse for ever turning an animal like that loose to prey on society again. Not really much excuse, really, once guilt has been sufficiently established, to even allow such an animal to continue wasting oxygen and food any any other resources.

You kind of contradicted yourself there, Mormon Bob. It costs $50,000 a year to lock Mr. Flowers up. He's already consuming resources.

Look, I realize you have your Mormon Blood Atonement fantasies, but most Americans are sensible to realize the Death Penalty is cruel, racist and ridiculously expensive. Not to mention it has absolutely no deterrent effect. This is why every other civilized nation has abandoned it, save for Japan. Meanwhile, we are in the company of Iran, Saudi Arabia and China in our blood lust to execute people. You are the one who always talk about the company we keep, I'd rather be in the company of civilized Democracies than barbaric and cruel theocracies/dictatorships.

We get that you care for criminals. You care for thieves and murderers and other such animals.

To [sic] bad you don't care nearly as much for honest, decent, law-abiding citizens.

No, Mormon Bob, as I keep trying to explain to you, when our society is based on racism, wealth inequality, and greed, it actually does effect all of us. For instance, I've been a victim of a crime (my house being broken into in 1989), but I've also had to pay into the extreme expense of supporting the Prison Industrial complex. When you have 9 million people caught up in the Criminal Justice system and another 100 million with some kind of arrest record, you really don't get to call yourself a "Free" country anymore. I realize that punishing criminals excites you and such, but as a policy, it just doesn't work in the long run or short run.

The Europeans have figured this out. It's why Germany only locks up 78,000 people, but their crime rate, even with the challenges of re-integrating East Germany and large influxes of immigrants, is nowhere near ours. Women in Japan can walk out at night unescorted, something that American women wouldn't think of doing. Our criminal justice system creates a lot of the problems for the law abiding you whine about.

Time to try something better.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Yes, you really do... You really have to state that the promise of good behavior and reform is something prisoners should strive for... otherwise our prison populations would become unmanageable. As stated above, we have 2 million people in prison and 7 million on probation or parole. By your logic, all 9 million of those people should be in prison, with no hope of parole.

By your logic these people will never be rehabilitated.

Think about it: the argument that an inmate should be able to look forward to parole as a reason to keep his shit together while in prison negates the concept of rehabilitation. If he's only going to behave so he can get out there's no reason, at all, that he'll be rehabilitated when he's released.

And isn't that what we want when someone's paroled?

No, I'm in favor of looking at each case on it's individual merits. Manson was convicted because - get this - he instigated the murders and planned them. He probably killed a lot of other people who were never found.

It's widely held that Manson never actually killed anyone himself...

It will STILL be up to a parole board to determine if he is actually released.

No, actually, it won't.

Manson died in 2017.

Way to stay up on current events...

 

[JoeB131]

By your logic these people will never be rehabilitated.

Think about it: the argument that an inmate should be able to look forward to parole as a reason to keep his shit together while in prison negates the concept of rehabilitation. If he's only going to behave so he can get out there's no reason, at all, that he'll be rehabilitated when he's released.

That's... retarded. The whole concept of parole is to work towards rehabilitation. If you know you are going to spend the rest of your life there, no matter what, your incentive is to make the guards and fellow inmates just as miserable as you are.

It's widely held that Manson never actually killed anyone himself...

Widely held by who?

No, actually, it won't.

Manson died in 2017.

Way to stay up on current events...

Wasn't talking about Manson, I was talking about Flowers... Do try to keep up.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Yeah, funny thing, I don't think you'd want to live in a world where we execute people without due process.

I never said anything against due process. I do not advocate vigilantism or lynching. But when a criminal is proven, in a proper trial by jury, to be guilty of a sufficient level of criminality to prove that he is unwilling or unable to peaceably coexist with society as a whole, then to ever set such an animal loose is just insane. To continue wasting the resources to keep such an animal alive indefinitely in prison, is just insane.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I keep trying to explain to you, when our society is based on racism, wealth inequality, and greed…

Except that it's not, and it never has been. Those are the scary bogeymen that you think are hiding under your bed, hat you blame for everything bad that has ever happened to you.

They are your insane delusions,, nothing more.