Shootings in Britain

2aguy said:
...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....


Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019

Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw

Idaho is not a point of contact state for NICS. Idaho has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate a background check prior to transferring a firearm.

Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords

I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
2aguy said:
…so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
post #484

“About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”

Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)


Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...

Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....

Someone with a concealed carry permit in Idaho has already gone through a background check for the concealed carry permit...you doofus...

Yes....criminals smuggle guns....they even get them onto your Island...very easily....

Analysis by the NFTC found that Merseyside and the broader north-west corridor was home to a network of gun factories converting low-calibre weapons such as the Czech-made Škorpion and Slovakian Grand Power into deadly automatic firearms.



Perfect said that converting weapons was seen by some in the region as a viable business.



A low-calibre Glock handgun bought for £135 in eastern Europe could be converted in just 90 seconds to a 9mm weapon that could be sold for up to £5,000.

-----

nalysis of the intelligence from EncroChat has revealed other surprises to firearms officers. Perfect said:



“If you’d asked me before Venetic what was the firearm of choice for an organised crime group, I’d have absolutely said the Glock handgun. Venetic showed that the Škorpion SMG and the Grand Power are now becoming that weapon of choice.”


Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”


He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========


Two shot dead on London's streets amid warnings 'fluid supply' of guns is increasingly difficult to control

The violence came as police warned that the “fluid supply” of gunswas becoming increasingly difficult to control, with gangs using new and innovative ways of smuggling them past border defences.
---


Simon Brough, head of firearms at the National Crime Agency (NCA), also warned that the “sheer volume” of firearms coming into the UK represented a “pernicious threat” that urgently needed to be addressed.

“The scale is really challenging, he told the Telegraph. “We are doing everything we can but criminals are operating in a lucrative business where they can be increasingly innovative and operate in a highly effective way.”


Last week, an Irish man found with 60 firearms in his car in Dover, en route from Calais, admitted gun smuggling.

Robert Keogh, 37, was stopped on August 2 by Border Force officers who found the weapons concealed deep inside the vehicle’s bumper and both rear quarter panels.

The number of shootings has been on the rise since 2013 and has in part being linked to the 2,000 drug supply chains identified as part of the country lines network.

Mr Brough said hand guns were being smuggled through eastern Europe, across nexus points in Belgium and the Netherlands and then onwards into the UK.

“Some of the methods criminal groups are using are incredibly sophisticated, for example, they are built into the interior of vehicles,” he said.

“The challenge at the border is the sheer volume of the operation.

“When a gun is coming in as a fast parcel, how can we find that? It’s a needle in a haystack.”

Shotguns lawfully held are being diverted into the criminal market via burglaries while other weapons are purchased blank and then converted.

Mr Brough said there was a trend towards “new and clean” guns being used for the first time that did not link to previous crimes.


“The source of them and availability leads to incidents such as we’ve seen this weekend,” he added.
========

 
2aguy said:
Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...

Why thank you, I was unaware of this other more recent controversy about Lott’s so called “research”. I referenced his failure to provide his original data when he claimed his hard drive failed and he lost all his data, along with the details of anyone he employed to obtain said data, allow me to remind you,

“Also, serious academics don’t need to create “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.” Post #489

Interesting paragraph from that “controversy”

Given the findings of ADZ(2011), even if it were true that the original data were flawless, it is entirely mis-leading to state that the original More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis has now been tested many times over the past decade and a half, with a majority “finding some support for the hypothesis that shall-issue laws reduce crime” (MLM 2013, 26).

A more helpfully accurate statement would be that the NRC’s 2005 report concluded that all of the previous articles that appeared to provide support for the More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis in fact did not provide credible statistical support for that view.”




You keep lying.....he provided that data, as the links show...you doofus....
 
2aguy said:
...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....


Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019

Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw

Idaho is not a point of contact state for NICS. Idaho has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate a background check prior to transferring a firearm.

Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords

I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
2aguy said:
…so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
post #484

“About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”

Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)


You moron....you left this out of your quotes....you lying doofus...

In Idaho, all firearms transfers by licensed dealers are processed directly through the FBI, which enforces the federal purchaser prohibitions referenced above.1
 
2aguy said:
Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.

That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481

I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be registered for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be vetted and licenced, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping.

I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.

As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had one mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? 98.

When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.


Moron.....you only had one mass public shooting every 10 years before the ban....and after the ban in 2010...you had the Cumbria shooting....

Your gun control laws had no effect on your mass public shooting rate, you lying piece of crap.

And the shooter used a Double Barreled shotgun and a .22 caliber bolt action rifle.....

He killed 12 people......

You don't know what you are talking about...

The Cumbria shootings was a shooting spree which occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, taxi driver Derrick Bird, killed twelve people and injured eleven others before killing himself in Cumbria, England, United Kingdom.


 
2aguy said:
Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.

That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481

I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be registered for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be vetted and licenced, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping.

I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.

As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had one mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? 98.

When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.


Registering guns does nothing to stop criminals or mass public shooters, as your Cumbria shooter shows.......all it did in Britain was allow your government to scoop up the guns when they decided to ban them......

nothing you just posted stops a mass public shooter.....they don't break the law before the mass public shooting, so they pass all of your requirements....as the Cumbria shooter did, you doofus.....and he didn't have a military weapon......

And criminals can get the guns they want....as the Continent shows, since those criminals use fully automatic military rifles as the weapon of choice, they also use grenades in Sweden.......

You don't know what you are talking about....
 
2aguy said:
Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.

That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481

I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be registered for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be vetted and licenced, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping.

I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.

As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had one mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? 98.

When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.


Again, you moron........as more Americans, in our system.....own and actually carry guns in public.....the gun murder rate went down, not up, by 49%.....our gun crime rate went down, not up, by 75%.....our violent crime rate went down, not up, by 72%......

So your entire point is stupid.....

And again.......

You said that crime rates around the world went down at the same time....what you left out is that crime rates in America went down faster and more than those around the world.......

And.......

If you were correct in your views about guns and gun ownership....then when the United States started having more gun ownership, and more people carrying guns in public, we should have been going in the opposite direction for the rest of the world.....but no, we dropped our gun crime rates, and our crime rates faster and more than the other countries around the world....

That means......in "Science," that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime or gun murder rate.....

You are wrong on all counts...
 
2aguy said:
...there is no gun show loophole you tool. And yes...in Idaho and Montana gun stores have to do federal background checks....


Montana gun control laws are some of the most permissive in the country. A Montana resident does not need a registration, license, or permit to purchase or possess firearms. A background check is not required under state law when buying a firearm in a private sale, although local ordinances may apply. Apr 8, 2019

Montana law does not prohibit sales of firearms to out-of-state residents, but federal laws and the laws of your resident state might. Montana Gun Control Laws - FindLaw

Idaho is not a point of contact state for NICS. Idaho has no law requiring firearms dealers to initiate a background check prior to transferring a firearm.

Holders of concealed weapons licenses in Idaho are exempt from background checks when purchasing a firearm. Background Check Procedures in Idaho | Giffords

I agree that Federally licenced gun dealers must carry out background checks anywhere in the USA, but laws are broken with alarming regularity, as you point out here.
2aguy said:
…so criminals have to use mothers, baby mommas, to get their guns, since those women can pass the required background checks...
post #484

“About 50,000 guns are found to be diverted to criminals across state lines every year, federal data shows, and many more are likely to cross state lines undetected.”

Interesting article on how easy it is to smuggle guns across the USA. Another argument for gun control if ever there was one.
How Gun Traffickers Get Around State Gun Laws (Published 2015)


Moron........you go to an anti-gun site to look up gun laws and you got duped by them....then you fail to quote pertinent parts of the various state laws in order to lie about those states and gun ownership....

Idaho does not require a background check to buy a gun if you have a concealed carry permit.....why?

Because to get a concealed carry permit in Idaho, you go through a background check through the state police........you idiot.

Any person applying for original issuance of a license to carry concealed weapons must submit his fingerprints with the completed license application. Within five (5) days after the filing of an application, the sheriff must forward the applicant’s completed license application and fingerprints to the Idaho state police.

The Idaho state police must conduct a national fingerprint-based records check, an inquiry through the national instant criminal background check system and a check of any applicable state database, including a check for any mental health records for conditions or commitments that would disqualify a person from possessing a firearm under state or federal law, and return the results to the sheriff within sixty (60) days.

If the applicant is not a United States citizen, an immigration alien query must also be conducted through United States immigration and customs enforcement or any successor agency. The sheriff shall not issue a license before receiving the results of the records check and must deny a license if the applicant is disqualified under any of the criteria listed in subsection (11) of this section. The sheriff may deny a license to carry concealed weapons to an alien if background information is not attainable or verifiable.

 
2aguy said:
Your claim...more guns will mean more gun murder and more gun crime.

That might be someone’s claim, but it has never been mine. See post #481

I consistently argue that if the general public are to have access to firearms, the firearms must be registered for traceability, the person wanting the weapon should be vetted and licenced, and most importantly can only acquire a gun after extensive training in its use and secure safekeeping.

I also argue that the gun controls we have here in the UK work.

As do the gun control regulations in other European countries, unlike the apparent free for all you have in America. Since we banned assault rifles and concealable handguns, we’ve had one mass shooting in over twenty years, how many mass shootings have happened over the last 20 years in the USA? 98.

When there is a firearms incident over here, it’s big news, whereas in America the phrase “shots fired” is so commonplace, such incidents barely get a mention in local news outlets never mind national news media.


The gun control laws in Europe do not stop the criminals there from getting fully automatic military weapons and grenades.......

You are wrong...

Hmmmmmm....seems to me Sweden is in Europe.....Right?

Are fully automatic military rifles banned in Europe?

IN DEPTH: What's behind the rise in gang violence across Sweden?

The weapon of choice for gangs are Kalashnikov automatic rifles. Imported from the Balkans, they are available for between 2,500 and 3,500 euros (around $2,800 to $3,950), although they become "more expensive in the event of an open conflict," according to Appelgren.
-------

Honour, debts, and prestige are serving as the pretext for an increasing number of deadly shootings that challenge the ideals of equality and social harmony on which modern Sweden was built.
-----

Last year more than 300 shootings resulted in 45 deaths and 135 injuries in Sweden.

While the overall homicide rate remains one of the lowest in the world, with one per 100,000 inhabitants according to police statistics, deadly shootings have been steadily rising and last year reached record levels. 2019 is also on track to create another unwanted record. In Stockholm the first six months of the year have seen as many killings as the whole of 2018.



Is France a part of Europe?

ris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons
means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.[

France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.
--------


Inside Chechen drug wars where gangs barbecue rivals & rampage with AK-47s

TERRIFIED locals fled between burning bins as hooded thugs wielding AK-47s shot into the air, torching cars through the streets of Dijon.
------
This week, violence broke out across the eastern city as hundreds of Chechens from across France descended in an orgy of revenge.
Armed thugs – some brandishing Kalashnikovs – rampaged through the streets, injuring several people, including one pizza restaurant owner reportedly hit by gunfire.

-----In many cases the AK-47 is the trademark weapon and the murder is followed by a “barbecue”, meaning the body is doused in petrol and burned, to make it harder to identify.



Reports of 'heavy gunfire' on the streets of French city of Nimes | Daily Mail Online

Machine-gun shots have been heard on the streets of a French city this evening as it was claimed a 'shootout' took place between rival gangs.

Repeated 'heavy gunfire' bursts were let off in the city of Nimes in southern France after armed men were seen in the area.

Social media videos showed several people running through the street as shots rang out at around 8.30pm.

Initial reports suggested the shooting could have been linked to gangs operating in the area.

Residents in a suburb of Pissevin district in the city claimed gang members shot at a building occupied by a rival group.


Reports of gunfire in the district have been on the rise in recent months, according to local media

========
Tourist killed in AK47 gang shooting in France as parents warned to ‘watch kids’

The woman was on a hired scooter when she and her husband were sprayed with bullets as they passed a gangland Kalashnikov shooting in which three people died.
---
The 57-year-old woman, whose nationality is not known, was among those killed in the bloodbath at a petrol station in Ollioules, near the Mediterranean – four miles from Toulon – on Sunday.

The vacationer's husband was injured in the shooting.

----

he men who died in the 8pm shooting were aged 29 and 30, and both had criminal records.

Other men were seen running away from the filling station, and police believe they were involved in the gunfight.
---

Detectives had today cordoned off the crime scene, where bullet holes could be seen everywhere.

From last year...

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180523/marseille-policeman-who-faced-kalashnikov-gang-they-do-not-fear-us
 
Last edited:
2aguy said:
Lott did provide the data, and if you weren't such a hack you would know that...

Why thank you, I was unaware of this other more recent controversy about Lott’s so called “research”. I referenced his failure to provide his original data when he claimed his hard drive failed and he lost all his data, along with the details of anyone he employed to obtain said data, allow me to remind you,

“Also, serious academics don’t need to create “sock puppets” to support them and can provide data when requested, something Lott has signally failed to do for his alleged 1997 study.” Post #489

Interesting paragraph from that “controversy”

Given the findings of ADZ(2011), even if it were true that the original data were flawless, it is entirely mis-leading to state that the original More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis has now been tested many times over the past decade and a half, with a majority “finding some support for the hypothesis that shall-issue laws reduce crime” (MLM 2013, 26).

A more helpfully accurate statement would be that the NRC’s 2005 report concluded that all of the previous articles that appeared to provide support for the More Guns, Less Crime hypothesis in fact did not provide credible statistical support for that view.”




Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...

The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws: A Critique of the 2014 Version of Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Panel regressions, right-to-carry, shall-issue

Abstract
In 2005 the National Research Council (nrc) analyzed right-to-carry (rtc) laws, which relax the requirements necessary to acquire a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The nrc essentially concluded that the data were not sufficient to determine whether rtc laws increased or decreased crime.

However, a recent working paper from Abhay Aneja, John J. Donohue, and Alexandria Zhang re-evaluates the nrc analysis and purports to find evidence that rtc laws increase murder, rape, robbery, and assault.
They make a number of choices that generate those results, but we find those choices are often unjustifiable.

Most importantly, we note that they use only part of the available data, claiming that a regime change renders decades of data unusable—yet they did not test for the existence of a regime change, and our examination here finds little evidence that such a regime change occurred.

Additionally, we note that they compare states that newly adopted laws with states that already had laws, that their standard errors are biased downward, that they exclude highly significant individual state trends, that they run multiple tests without adjusting significance levels, and that they fail to report significance tests on pre- and post-law dummy coefficients.

And here....

Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, crime, shall-issue, right-to-carry, NRC

Abstract
In an article titled “The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws and the NRC Report: Lessons for the Empirical Evaluation of Law and Policy” published in the American Law and Economics Review in 2011, Abhay Aneja, John Donohue III, and Alexandria Zhang report on their inability to replicate regression estimates appearing in the 2005 National Research Council (NRC) report Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. They suggest that there are flaws in the data that John Lott had supplied to the NRC. This suggestion could sow seeds of doubt with respect to the many studies that have used that data.


The source of the replication problem, however, was that Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang did not estimate the correct model specification—a problem that they have acknowledged in subsequent communications. However, in these later communications they do not make clear that the basis for their doubts about the Lott-originated data has disappeared.
 
*sigh* You can always tell when someone destroys 2 a guy’s “arguments”, you get frantic diversion tactics in the form of a torrent of irrelevant cut and paste BS posts accompanied by ad hominem attacks which merely demonstrate to anyone even remotely interested, that he has nothing of substance to offer while simultaneously projecting his own character flaws onto anyone who dares argue against him and his gun guru messiah.

Never mind, moving on.
 
2aguy said:
Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...

Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....

Oh dear, here we go. What The So-Called Gun Show Loophole Really Looks Like | Guns & America
“Private gun sales don’t require a background check, whereas purchases from a licensed dealer do. That dichotomy is on display twice a year at the Tulsa Arms Show, which calls itself the largest gun show in the world..”.

What you had was this interesting circumstance where … a licensed gun dealer set up next to a private party. Both would be selling the same gun, but they would have to abide by different laws.

That circumstance — where private sellers are exempted from conducting the background check required of gun dealers with a federal firearms license — became known as the “gun show loophole.” Gun stores, whether a local mom-and-pop or a giant chain, must obtain a federal license as a gun dealer.

Gun advocates have long claimed the gun show loophole is a myth. A “fact sheet” from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, an industry trade group, declares flatly: “There is no gun show loophole.”

The organization correctly notes that the rules for selling guns aren’t any more lax at gun shows than they would be in most parking lots.

It’s also true that most vendors at gun shows are licensed dealers.

But many gun shows allow people who aren’t licensed dealers to rent tables too. Some exhibitors are gun collectors who aren’t considered to be selling firearms as a business, but have plenty of guns to sell as they consolidate their collection.

At the Tulsa Arms Show, many private sellers are essentially walking billboards, advertising their guns on a backpack or by sticking a flag down the barrel of a rifle slung over their shoulder.

The “gun show loophole” might be more aptly termed the “private sale exception.” While the vast majority of guns sold in the U.S. — some estimates say more than 75 percent — are sold by licensed dealers, sales between private citizens can be arranged online or in person at any place and any time.
 
2aguy said:
Yes....criminals smuggle guns....they even get them onto your Island...very easily....

I’ve never denied that, although I’d not say “very”. I’ve seen numerous estimates from 500,000 to 4 million illegal firearms in the UK, sadly about as many come from the USA as Eastern Europe, thanks a bunch Yanks. Ultimately, no-one knows for sure, but as these weapons are bought by criminals, for criminals, by your own criteria, they don’t count.
 
2aguy said:
Moron.....you only had one mass public shooting every 10 years before the ban....and after the ban in 2010...you had the Cumbria shooting...

Erm… the assault rifle bans came into force in 1988; the concealable handgun ban in 1997, not 2010, but I’ll assume you were frothing at the mouth too much when you were writing that post. Still ONE mass shooting as compared to NINETY EIGHT in the USA over the same period, demonstrates the effectiveness of the bans.
 
2aguy said:
The gun control laws in Europe do not stop the criminals there from getting fully automatic military weapons and grenades...

I never said they did, that’s not the purpose behind gun control legislation. You seem to discount criminal on criminal shootings in the USA when it comes to mass killings, but highlight criminal on criminal shootings in Europe. You appear to want to both have your cake and eat it.
 
2aguy said:
Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...

You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:

More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime

Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).

…And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.

Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:

The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked

https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf

Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress

In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.
 
2aguy said:
Private sales are individuals selling private property, you doofus.......all purchases from licensed gun dealers must go through a federal background check.....you don't know what you are talking about...

Also, any licensed dealer at a gun show must do a federal background check, there is no gun show loophole....

Oh dear, here we go. What The So-Called Gun Show Loophole Really Looks Like | Guns & America
“Private gun sales don’t require a background check, whereas purchases from a licensed dealer do. That dichotomy is on display twice a year at the Tulsa Arms Show, which calls itself the largest gun show in the world..”.

What you had was this interesting circumstance where … a licensed gun dealer set up next to a private party. Both would be selling the same gun, but they would have to abide by different laws.

That circumstance — where private sellers are exempted from conducting the background check required of gun dealers with a federal firearms license — became known as the “gun show loophole.” Gun stores, whether a local mom-and-pop or a giant chain, must obtain a federal license as a gun dealer.

Gun advocates have long claimed the gun show loophole is a myth. A “fact sheet” from the National Shooting Sports Foundation, an industry trade group, declares flatly: “There is no gun show loophole.”

The organization correctly notes that the rules for selling guns aren’t any more lax at gun shows than they would be in most parking lots.

It’s also true that most vendors at gun shows are licensed dealers.

But many gun shows allow people who aren’t licensed dealers to rent tables too. Some exhibitors are gun collectors who aren’t considered to be selling firearms as a business, but have plenty of guns to sell as they consolidate their collection.

At the Tulsa Arms Show, many private sellers are essentially walking billboards, advertising their guns on a backpack or by sticking a flag down the barrel of a rifle slung over their shoulder.

The “gun show loophole” might be more aptly termed the “private sale exception.” While the vast majority of guns sold in the U.S. — some estimates say more than 75 percent — are sold by licensed dealers, sales between private citizens can be arranged online or in person at any place and any time.

That isn't a loophole....you doofus.

The one is selling private property, which is not a crime in the United States, the other is a licensed merchant. There is no loophole.....that implies the law allows someone to get around it....they aren't going around the law, they are not part of that law.
 
2aguy said:
Wow....you are dumb.......about the guys in your link...

You DO realise that this is an ongoing debate within the Econ Journal Watch? Your Moody and Marvell’s comments were subsequently responded to below:

More Gun Carrying, More Violent Crime · Econ Journal Watch : Guns, right-to-carry, synthetic controls, law and economics, criminal law, illegal behavior, violent crime

Carlisle Moody and Thomas Marvell (2018) have offered a number of criticisms of some older work on the impact of RTC laws on crime, while ignoring the recent literature that has found a strong connection between such laws and violent crime and/or murder (Siegel et al. 2017; Donohue 2017; Donohue, Aneja, and Weber 2018; Cook and Donohue 2017), which even includes work by their own former co-author Paul Zimmerman (2014). Their criticisms include preposterous claims such as that the crack epidemic “has had no effect on murder” and that the statistically significant finding that RTC laws increase the murder rate in the post-crack period should be disregarded because the analysis over a shorter period lacks the power to discern an effect (since it clearly did discern an effect).

…And so it goes on. The main point to take home from this is that John Lott’s so called “research” is not accepted by mainstream academia.

Here are other debunking articles about Lott if you are interested:

The bogus claims of the NRA's favorite social scientist, debunked

https://www.stophandgunviolence.org...the-NRAs-Favorite-Academic-March-6-2019-3.pdf

Guns, Lies, and Fear - Center for American Progress

In fact if you Google “debunking John Lott” you get 1.5 million hits.


They haven't been debunked....besides.....again.....27 years of actual experience of more guns in more hands, also carried in public and the crime rates went down, not up, and that has nothing to do with Lott's research.....you have nothing.


Lott has been attacked since the day he published that work, as an anti-gun researcher............he was anti-gun when he started the research and became pro-gun after...you doofus.
 

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