Shootings in Britain

[Vagabond63]

So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?

 

[2aguy]

As more Americans went out and now own and carry guns, our gun crime rate did not go up, our gun murder rate did not go up.

Without proper registration, monitoring and control, you have absolutely no idea of how many Americans bought how many guns. It is therefore equally valid to state that the same number of Americans just added 1-10+ more guns to their gun existing collections; also gun permits do not necessarily mean guns are owned by everyone with a permit, just like everyone who has a driving licence doesn’t necessarily own a car, while others have more than one car.

There is no need to register guns. No reason at all. The one reason anti-gunners want registration is so that when they have the political power, they can ban and confiscate them.

So, you don't know what you are talking about, again.

 

[2aguy]

So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?

Again.....your criminals have guns. They get them even though they are on an island. Your criminals do not use those guns to commit murder as often as criminals in our democrat party controlled cities do.

Our problem isn't guns...our problem is the democrat party that keeps releasing violent gun offenders over and over again. It is these specific criminals doing 95% of our gun crime.

So, you don't understand the issue, you bring up irrelevant points that do not address the issues or the problem.


You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.

As crime was going down around the world, more and more Americans were buying guns, and actually carrying them in public.

Our gun crime rate went down 49%, our gun murder rate went down 75%........the one variable that was different with the United States as crime around the entire world was going down.......had no effect on the gun crime rate or the crime rate in general...

So, again, you don't know what you are talking about, you don't understand the issues.


Guns in the hands of normal people are not a problem. Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns...so banning guns did not lower the gun murder rate, and it did not stop your criminals from getting guns.

 

[2aguy]

Meanwhile...in the United States.....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders...saving lives. This number comes from our Centers for Disease control research.

No it doesn’t. This comes from Gleck & Co. projections based on an extrapolated telephone sample. Depends on where you look but ESTIMATES and/or PROJECTIONS based on these sample surveys range from 180,000 to 2.5 million ( the latter, a figure you used to quote ad nauseam until you were laughed off the board).

You are a moron....I use the Centers for Disease Control number because then you guys can't lie about Kleck.....I also use the Department of Justice number of 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year, and I will also post the numbers Kleck found....showing all of those studies......

Notice...you ding bat......how high the number of gun uses are for normal, good people, fighting off violent criminals each year....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

 

[2aguy]

And back to the questions you refuse to answer...

I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.

I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party

Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.

Again, you don't want to answer the question, so I will repeat it.

Is it better that a woman is violently raped, tortured and murdered, or that she use a gun to stop the attack?

If a woman uses a gun to keep from being raped, would you go back in time and take that gun away from her?

 

[2aguy]

And back to the questions you refuse to answer...

I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.

I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party

Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.

Your question is dumb.

The majority of children killed in gun accidents are in homes with criminals or drug users who 1) can't legally own a gun in the first place, 2) would not obey your dumb laws.....

So....your gun laws wouldn't save those children....

Meanwhile....

Accidental deaths of children in the U.S. by gun


600 million guns in private hands.

Over 19.5 million Americans can legally carry a gun in public for self defense...

Accidental deaths of children with guns? 54

Deaths in cars......2,456


Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2018......

Guns......54

Motor vehicle..... 2,456

Suffocation: 1,162

Drowning: 698

Poisoning: 66

Traffic: 2,456

Guns: 54


Let me repeat the statistics.....

Guns in the U.S.......more than 600 million in private hands.

Over 19.5 million American can legally carry a gun in public.

Deaths by gun for children? 54.

Number of Americans who use guns each year to stop violent rapes, robberies and murders....

CDC....1.1 million

Department of Justice....1.5 million

Dr. Gary Kleck....2.5 million

Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?

 

[2aguy]

This means that the variable of gun ownership does not increase the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate,

Neither does it decrease the gun crime rate or the gun murder rate. Without proper registration and reporting you cannot prove your theory of “more guns in private hands = less crime”. If anything, more guns in private hands makes life easier for professional criminals to acquire guns illegally. So called “responsible gun owners” are even able to sell their “private property” to anyone. Do you seriously think criminals don’t go to gun fairs for that very reason?

You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...

And specifically, it lowers the crime rate for the victim who stops a rape, robbery or murder with a gun........

And again.....

You stated crime rates around the world went down at the same time........While in the U.S. as the crime rates went down more, and more quickly, more Americans own and carry guns........

So your entire fear of guns is unfounded and irrational...since guns in the hands of normal people does not increase gun crime or murder, and in fact, saves lives....

Papers that show gun ownership lowers the crime rate...

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...05711143901/2009_Hinckley_Journal.pdf#page=63
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...05711143901/2009_Hinckley_Journal.pdf#page=63
CONCLUSION It is difficult to make a strong conclusion on the impact concealed carry permits have on crime because there are studies that show contradictory results. However, based on the thorough research conducted by John R. Lott (2003), the evidence from the case study in Dade County, and the research conducted by Kleck and Mertz (1995), it appears that benefits of allowing law abiding citizens to carry a concealed weapon outweigh the negatives that guns can bring upon a society. The concerns mentioned above against the policy are not substantiated by the evidence available. The evidence suggests that children are more likely to drown or die in a bicycle accident then they are to die from a loaded unlocked gun. In addition, private gun owners are far less likely to mistakenly kill someone then a police officer is (Lott Jr., 1998). Ultimately the policy appears to be effective in terms of crime reduction.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Maltz.pdf


Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Our results indicated that the direction of effect of the shall-issue law on total SHR homicide rates was similar to that obtained by Lott and Mustard, although the magnitude of the effect was somewhat smaller and was statistically significant at the 7 percent level. In our analysis, which included only counties with a 1977 population of 100,000 or more, laws allowing for concealed weapons were associated with a 6.52 percent reduction in total homicides (Table 2). By comparison, Lott and Mustard found the concealed weapon dummy variable to be associated with a 7.65 percent reduction in total homicides across all counties and a 9 percent reduction in homicides when only large counties (populations of 100,000 or more) were included.43
====

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Plassmann_Whitley.pdf

COMMENTS

Confirming ìMore Guns, Less Crimeî Florenz Plassmann* & John Whitley**

CONCLUSION Analyzing county-level data for the entire United States from 1977 to 2000, we find annual reductions in murder rates between 1.5% and 2.3% for each additional year that a right-to-carry law is in effect.

For the first five years that such a law is in effect, the total benefit from reduced crimes usually ranges between about $2 and $3 billion per year.

The results are very similar to earlier estimates using county-level data from 1977 to 1996. We appreciate the continuing effort that Ayres and Donohue have made in discussing the impact of right-to-carry laws on crime rates. Yet we believe that both the new evidence provided by them as well as our new results show consistently that right-to-carry laws reduce crime and save lives. Unfortunately, a few simple mistakes lead Ayres and Donohue to incorrectly claim that crime rates significantly increase after right-to-carry laws are initially adopted and to misinterpret the significance of their own estimates that examined the year-to-year impact of the law.

====

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...An-Exercise-in-Replication.proof_.revised.pdf

~ The Impact of Right-to-Carry Laws on Crime: An Exercise in Replication1

Carlisle E. Moody College of William and Mary - Department of Economics, Virginia 23187, U.S.A. E-mail: [email protected] Thomas B. Marvell Justec Research, Virginia 23185, U.S.A. Paul R. Zimmerman U.S. Federal Trade Commission - Bureau of Economics, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Fasil Alemante College of William and Mary, Virginia 23187, U.S.A.


Abstract: In an article published in 2011, Aneja, Donohue and Zhang found that shall-issue or right-to-carry (RTC) concealed weapons laws have no effect on any crime except for a positive effect on assault.

This paper reports a replication of their basic findings and some corresponding robustness checks, which reveal a serious omitted variable problem.

Once corrected for omitted variables, the most robust result, confirmed using both county and state data, is that RTC laws significantly reduce murder.
====

An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates
Mark Gius

Abstract

The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates.

Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.

It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).

===

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..


Summary and Conclusion

Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime.

However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years

. We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime.

Since most states with shallissue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years. We extend their analysis by adding three more years of data, control for the effects of crack cocaine, control for dynamic effects, and correct the standard errors for clustering.

We find that there is an initial increase in crime due to passage of the shall-issue law that is dwarfed over time by the decrease in crime associated with the post-law trend.

These results are very similar to those of Ayres and Donohue, properly interpreted.

The modified Ayres and Donohue model finds that shall-issue laws significantly reduce murder and burglary across all the adopting states. These laws appear to significantly increase assault, and have no net effect on rape, robbery, larceny, or auto theft. However, in the long run only the trend coefficients matter. We estimate a net benefit of $450 million per year as a result of the passage of these laws. We also estimate that, up through 2000, there was a cumulative overall net benefit of these laws of $28 billion since their passage. We think that there is credible statistical evidence that these laws lower the costs of crime. But at the very least, the present study should neutralize any “more guns, more crime” thinking based on Ayres and Donohue’s work in the Stanford Law Review

 

[2aguy]

So, no shootings in October and 2 so far in November in the UK... oops no, found another 2, that makes 4, with all our gun control laws. How many in the USA in that time? Shall I start looking, just for comparative purposes?

A tale of two countries...

Britain...

Wayne Roberts, 36, posed as a water board worker to trick his way into the 74-year-old’s home in Barnsley, South Yorkshire, before launching the vicious attack in May this year. Sheffield Crown Court heard he punched the man, attempted to strangle him and threatened to empty a steaming kettle over his head as he demanded money. The elderly victim led Roberts and his accomplice James Hughes, 37, upstairs, where he was forced to hand over more than £22,000 in cash which has never been recovered.


Read more: Robber threatened pensioner with boiling water before stealing life savings

United States...

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


72-year-old who fatally shot robber: ‘I’m a good shooter’

After Johnson drove Holt to the apartment, she got out of the vehicle and walked around to the side of the building. Moments later, two men, one of whom was armed with a gun, approached Johnson’s vehicle and demanded money as they hit him multiple times.

“They didn’t know who they were messing with,” Johnson later told reporters. “They messed with the wrong person that day.”

Unbeknown to the suspects, Johnson was packing a pistol.

“I was getting the gun out at the same time while he was asking for the money, when he was asking for the money, talking – POW! I shot that bastard,” Johnson said.

Johnson fired a single shot, striking Randall Caradine, 46, in the chest. Caradine was transported to a hospital and died a short time later, while the second suspect made off with $1,000 in cash and remains at large.

Following the robbery and subsequent shooting, authorities interviewed Holt, who admitted the robbery was previously planned in order to pay off a $30 drug debt owed to Caradine and the second suspect.

 

[Vagabond63]

Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.

There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.

Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.

 

[Vagabond63]

You stated that crime around the world went down a the same time.....you failed to mention that crime in the U.S. went down more and faster than crime around the world.

I recall asking you to provide a link to this “revelation” on Monday. As you keep repeating yourself and in all your frenzied BS cut and paste spree, did you forget?

 

[Vagabond63]

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....[/quote}

So you can point out which of these “studies” used actual factual recorded empirical data, and were not simply extrapolations based on small sample interviews relying on respondents opinions?

 

[Vagabond63]

Again, you don't want to answer the question, so I will repeat it.

Knock yourself out, I’ve given you the answer your "question" deserves and the only one you'll get, would you like me to repeat it in case it didn’t penetrate your consciousness the first time?

“I tend not to answer pointless non-question questions or “questions” that are in reality, Appeal to Emotion fallacies, which incidentally prove that you have no factual evidence to offer; you just peddle fear.

I could just as easily ask you, “Would it be better for you if a child finds a gun and kills themselves with a legal gun that was carelessly left lying around, or that the owner should have had compulsory and sufficient training in how to store a gun safely in order to obtain a gun permit and/or gun? Texas boy, 3, dies after accidentally shooting himself in the chest at birthday party

Oh, as for time travel, that opens up a whole new can of worms. Ever read A sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury? A Sound of Thunder - Wikipedia Very prescient.”

Feel free to repeat it ad nauseam, oh and while you're at it, hold your breath while you wait for a different answer.

 

[Vagabond63]

Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?

54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.

 

[Vagabond63]

You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...

You mean articles cited by John (lies a) Lott’s start-up company, riiiight, got it.

 

[Vagabond63]

Cue next barrage of cut and paste BS...GO!

 

[2aguy]

You can't say that while actual studies show that gun ownership does lower the crime rate...

You mean articles cited by John (lies a) Lott’s start-up company, riiiight, got it.

Actual research, you dumb twit.....I posted the research, the names of the researchers and quotes pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about.....you can lie about Dr. Lott......but you can't deny his research.....

 

[2aguy]

Can you tell which number is bigger and how many lives are saved by Americans with guns?

54 children killed is presumably a documented fact. The rest, lives saved with guns, is fantasy, estimation, extrapolation, and guesswork.

Government researchers, private researchers, years of research, and since it goes against your emotional attachment to gun control, you say it doesn't count....you are an idiot. I have also listed stories taken from actual news outlets of Americans across the country, of all ages who use guns to save their own lives and the lives of others.........

330 million Americans

72 million Children

600 million guns

Over 19.5 million Americans who legally carry guns in public.....

54 accidental gun deaths of children, the majority of whom die because they live in homes of criminals...who can't legally buy, own or carry guns in the first place.....

You dumb twit....

1.1 million defensive gun uses each year....Centers for Disease Control

1.5 Million defensive gun uses each year....Dept. of Justice....

You don't know what you are talking about. You don't understand the issues. You are irrational and dumb.......yet you still post on this topic...

 

[2aguy]

Cue next barrage of cut and paste BS...GO!

I post actual sources of research and data.....and since it shows you are an idiot who doesn't have the first clue about what you are talking about, you move to the next step of the left wing doofus....you complain that the information is too much cut and paste.......

Weak....and lame.

 

[2aguy]

Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.

There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.

Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.

Registering guns has one goal.....knowing who owns the gun so when you have the political power you know where to find them for confiscation.

Registration of guns does not work....since criminals can't buy, own or carry guns in the first place, they will not have legally registered guns when they commit their crimes......you doofus. So registering them to normal people has no effect on solving crimes. Finding a gun that has been stolen and used in a crime does not tell you who pulled the trigger.......the average street life of a gun is about 11 years...after it is stolen......so again...you don't know what you are talking about...

Here.....the truth, in cut and paste....

Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada’s auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada’s 34 million residents.

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money — about $17 million of the Firearms Center’s $82 million annual budget — trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren’t the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry. The bulk of the guns, Canadian officials concluded, were unregistered weapons imported illegally from the U.S. by criminal gangs.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records. Liberals argued the law had contributed to the decline in gun homicides since it was passed. But Mauser notes that gun homicides have actually been rising in recent years, from 151 in 1999 to 173 in 2009, as violent criminal gangs use guns in their drug turf wars and other disputes. As in the U.S., most gun homicides in Canada are committed by young males, many of them with criminal records. In the majority of homicides involving young males, the victim and the killer are know each other.


As to solving crimes....it doesn't...

10 Myths About The Long Gun Registry

cssa-cila.org

Myth #4: Police investigations are aided by the registry.
Doubtful. Information contained in the registry is incomplete and unreliable. Due to the inaccuracy of the information, it cannot be used as evidence in court and the government has yet to prove that it has been a contributing factor in any investigation. Another factor is the dismal compliance rate (estimated at only 50%) for licensing and registration which further renders the registry useless. Some senior police officers have stated as such: “The law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered ... the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives.” Former Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino, January 2003.


-----

https://www.quora.com/In-countries-...olved-at-least-in-part-by-use-of-the-registry



Tracking physical objects that are easily transferred with a database is non-trivial problem. Guns that are stolen, loaned, or lost disappear from the registry. The data is has to be manually entered and input mistakes will both leak guns and generate false positive results.

Registries don’t solve straw-purchases. If someone goes through all of the steps to register a gun and simply gives it to a criminal that gun becomes unregistered. Assuming the gun is ever recovered you could theoretically try and prosecute the person who transferred the gun to the criminal, but you aren’t solving the crime you were trying to. Remember that people will prostitute themselves or even their children for drugs, so how much deterrence is there in a maybe-get-a-few-years for straw purchasing?

Registries are expensive. Canada’s registry was pitched as costing the taxpayer $2 million and the rest of the costs were to be payed for with registration fees. It was subject to massive cost overruns that were not being met by registrations fees. When the program was audited in 2002 the program was expected to cost over $1 billion and that the fee revenue was only expected to be $140 million.

No gun recovered. If no gun was recovered at the scene of the crime then your registry isn’t even theoretically helping, let alone providing a practical tool. You need a world where criminals meticulously register their guns and leave them at the crime scene for a registry to start to become useful.

Say I have a registered gun, and a known associate of mine was shot and killed. Ballistics is able to determine that my known associate was killed with the same make and model as the gun I registered. A registry doesn’t prove that my gun was used, or that I was the one doing the shooting. I was a suspect as soon as we said “known associate” and the police will then being looking for motive and checking for my alibi.


Bullet tracking..

Maryland scraps gun "fingerprint" database after 15 failed years
Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."

The database "was a waste," said Frank Sloane, owner of Pasadena Gun & Pawn in Anne Arundel County. "There's things that they could have done that would have made sense. This didn't make any sense."

 

[2aguy]

Should have anticipated the usual deluge of cut and paste...hey ho.

There is no need to register guns. No reason at all.

Then why register cars? So, you know which gun belongs to which owner, and when it’s sold on, the transfer of ownership is recorded. You do it for cars, why not guns, which are arguably as much if not more dangerous.

Here......again, criminals can't buy, own or carry guns legally and so registering them will not help catch them.....all it does is aid in confiscation when the anti-gunners get the power to confiscate...

Eighty percent of illegal guns recovered in Michigan have been on the street for at least three years. The average time between a firearm being stolen and turning up in a criminal context — what police call the “time to crime” — is a long 13 years.

Editorial: How to get illegal guns off the streets

Stopping this activity should be a shared goal for all sides of the gun debate.

www.mlive.com

How many different criminals, who sell the guns or trade them for drugs, or pass them from one gang member to another before the police actually get their hands on the gun?

So, again, a registry of guns does not help solve the crime...........linking the gun to the actual shooter helps solve the crime and you don't need a registry to do that......