Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[Foxfyre]

Once again, offering religious education is public schools is a far cry'\from "compelling" students to enroll in them.

Maybe it is splitting hairs, but I prefer to think the public schools should be teaching religion education, not 'religious' education. I think courses in comparative religion are fine but I don't think the public school is the place to teach theology/doctrine/dogma as fact but only as objective differences between various religious groups.

Certainly any honest history will include the role that religion has played in the exploration and settlement of the New World, the first settlers arriving here, and how American societies evolved and grew, the foundations of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the customs, traditions, values, and laws we live by.

Any honest science class will neither dispute nor challenge a child's belief in the Genesis Creation stories and a good science class allowing for critical thinking--there can be no science without critical thinking--will include intelligent design as one theory of the development of the universe along with the Big Bang Theory and Darwin, none of which have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[Meriweather]

Maybe it is splitting hairs, but I prefer to think the public schools should be teaching religion education, not 'religious' education. I think courses in comparative religion are fine but I don't think the public school is the place to teach theology/doctrine/dogma as fact but only as objective differences between various religious groups.

Certainly any honest history will include the role that religion has played in the exploration and settlement of the New World, the first settlers arriving here, and how American societies evolved and grew, the foundations of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the customs, traditions, values, and laws we live by.

Any honest science class will neither dispute nor challenge a child's belief in the Genesis Creation stories and a good science class allowing for critical thinking--there can be no science without critical thinking--will include intelligent design as one theory of the development of the universe along with the Big Bang Theory and Darwin, none of which have to be mutually exclusive.

I do not have anything against comparative religion classes, but my vision is freedom of religion, and religion as an elective. For example, any and all faiths can come to a school, show that they have enough students interested in learning about that faith, and the church/temple would provide the instructor for that specific faith. Instead of no religion in the public square, all religions are welcome in the public square. Perhaps a philosophy/ethics elective that has nothing to do with religion could also be offered.

 

[DGS49]

The American culture has long reflected Judeo-Christian values, going back to the Founders, who started each session with a non-denominational prayer. Countless public documents (The Declaration of Independence, State Constitutions) and speeches cited the power of God and our being subject to Divine Providence.

The Left has engaged in a decades-long campaign to rid the culture of many of these values, substituting...nothing, really, just Hedonism. It is not so long ago, for example, that "we" had "Blue Laws," which prohibited most commercial businesses from operating ON THE SABBATH (Sunday). Retail stores were closed, bars were closed, the few malls that existed were completely closed, and so on. Now we have a couple generations of Americans who could not even conceive of living in such a world.

Sodomy and adultery were defined as crimes - not often enforced, but crimes nonetheless. Abortion was a crime in virtually every U.S. jurisdiction, a sanction which was based in Biblical teachings.

Public schools started the day with a recitation of The Lord's Prayer, and Bible readings were also done in many communities.

Congress, with huge bi-partisan majorities passed a law called the Defense of Marriage Act (1996), basically saying that even if some states legalized "gay marriage," the Feds would not recognize them for legal purposes under Federal law. This was based on a moral belief that sodomy was "wrong" under Biblical principles.

More Americans are familiar with the text of a silly, meaningless private letter which described a "wall of separation between Church and State," than the actual words of the Constitution, to wit, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

"Separation of Church and State" has not been the Left's goal. Their goal has been to expunge any element of traditional morality from the public sphere. And they have damn near achieved it. I'm glad I'm too old to worry about it.

 

[BreezeWood]

I do not have anything against comparative religion classes ...

what then is religion, mutually subordinate and would be monotheistic religions death nail ... good call, worth including as mandatory curriculum.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

i. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240811 {post•12612}. NotfooledbyW Sep’23 Vrvwgo provides except from Business Insider :
Jenna Ellis

Mark Meadows sent a memo to top Mike Pence aide from a Trump campaign lawyer outlining how to overturn the 2020 election: book. •¥•. In the memo, the lawyer Jenna Ellis devised a plan for Pence to send back the electoral votes of six states that Trump said he won, a new book says. www.businessinsider.com. nfbw 230925 Vrvwgo11216


ii. Separation of Church and State? 240810 {post•225}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas: The kingdom of heaven is now. I experience the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... now. dvng 240810 S 00215


iii. Separation of Church and State? 240811 {post•225}

NotfooledbyW Aug’24: Just keep your Athanasian Paradox (jffrsn) churchiness Saint_Ding out of secular state lawmaking.

Your Churchiness has created quite the serious ¥%#€storm church-mess for our nation and for the most hardest being hit - the Republican Party.

Don Trump’s ownership of the calamitous Dobbs decision from the Kingdom of Heaven’s political machine, that His Majesty Don Trump leads, is on the world stage playing out before our very eyes.

The Kingdom of Heaven / Confederate States Merger of 1973 is breaking up,

The Conservative demolition of the wall of separation of church and state was a very successful project for the top wealth percenters the past five decades.

No More - We are not a Christian Nation and never were and thank to Natures’s God we never will be. Thank You Democrats as well. Jefferson and Madison separation of church and state has been tested, but it’s coming back..


iv Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 231024 {post•11601}. ding Oct’23 Srvwgo: “Abortion should be a misdemeanor”. dvng 231024 Srvwgo11601


v. Separation of Church and State? 240811 {post•221}

How can I help? When you want to pass religious laws Saint_Ding keep them for your Kingdom of God. Or as America’s Dad Tim Walz says “Mind your own damn business!

Follows is an example of the Republican Church Mess you helped make by disrespecting Separation of Church and State in America;

nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo00225


N i. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240810 {post•12604}. RetiredGySgt Aug’24 Srvwgo: I simply scroll past his crap and noturd too. rtdgnnrydgt 240810 Srvwgo12604

N ii. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240810 {post•12609}. Monk-Eye Aug’24 Srvwgo: A first rule damned dirty apes should attempt to apply is not to destroy its own well being . mvnk-vyv 240810 Srvwgo12609

N iii. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240811 {post•12612}. NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vrvwgo provides substance over slop:Saint_Retiredgysgt is whistling past the graveyard with the zombie of a Saint Blisterfinger snarling at his side,

The authoritarian Joint Venture between Don the Con Trump and Phylis ‘holier than all female thou(s) Schlafly (rip) has one foot in the ‘pit of fallen angels hell and the other on a banana peel.

Three slices of the MAGA death watch the next 2.5 weeks are:

(1) Harris/Walz flirting with a double digit lead in the presidential election poll averaging sites.

(2) Mugshot of Trump being indicted by the prosecutor in Arizona as the grand jury originally demanded for his criminal leading the criminal conspiracy in the false elector plot to overturn the 2020 election on J6,2021,

(3) The effect of Jenna Ellis’s flipping on Don Trump on her ( AFR.net - Talk Player ) show (8:00 AM m-f) and the American Family Network’s zombie nation when they find out she betrayed Trump for a few pieces of silver just like Judas betrayed her Lord and Savior the Almighty Jesus Christ. nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo12612

nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo00225

 

[alang1216]

No idea. What's his view of religion? Is there some well known quote he made like Karl Marx made when he said, "religion is the opiate of the masses?" You compared people of faith to alcoholics and heroin addicts. Do you see the similarity in your belief and Karl Marx's belief? Does that give you pause for concern?

You say that like opiates are a bad thing.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

Donald Trump is the antithesis to our sacred idea of separation of church and state.. He leads the most powerful political voter block comprised of churched people in the history of our nation.

These biblical worldview churched people hold a minority view among all Christian that lacks realistic, understanding of what separation of church and state actually means. Their view is basically distorted for white Christian grievance as to what happened in our nation for the past five or six decades involving race and sex.

Although a minority, this Republican gathering of white Christian evangelicals and perhaps about half of all Catholics hold political power well beyond their numbers.,

Donald Trump sought the white evangelical voter support in Iowa in 2015 and he got it. He got it by promises /. promising them power. And they buy it hook line and sinker..

Of course this has been a very odd coupling between devout and marginal Christians and the pussy grabber, financially penalized by a court rapist, election fraudster, and indicted leader of a criminal conspiracy to overturn the first term election that he lost, but who are Jesus believers to care when power is the shiny object before them?.

It would seem that Bible believing members of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven would reject all those things that Donald Trump has done our secular world.

But no.

Yesterday in Sturgis Montana, Donald Trump came face-to-face with a bearded motorcyclist supporter, who asked him what he was going to do to help his kids, make it on their own in the world.

Don Trump’s answer was “drill baby drill.” America has become the top producing nation in the world under the leader ship of President Biden. More cannot reduce inflation through fungible world market.

But perhaps Chris could be turned away from the support of Donald Trump when they remember the commandment, not too bare false witness against the neighbor.

Which can be interpreted to me always “tell the truth”

Donald Trump told his motorcycle dude concerned about his kids right to his face in real life in front kid God and everybody.

“You look at bacon. Bacon has quadrupled. You can't order bacon, you can't order anything. We're living horribly."


However,

In the last year of Trump's presidency, a pound of bacon cost $5.83; the price is now $6.77 and has gone down over the last two years.

Credit; Trump gives 'unbelievably bad' answer when asked how he'll help working people: critics

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Maybe it is splitting hairs, but I prefer to think the public schools should be teaching religion education, not 'religious' education. I think courses in comparative religion are fine but I don't think the public school is the place to teach theology/doctrine/dogma as fact but only as objective differences between various religious groups.

Certainly any honest history will include the role that religion has played in the exploration and settlement of the New World, the first settlers arriving here, and how American societies evolved and grew, the foundations of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the customs, traditions, values, and laws we live by.

Any honest science class will neither dispute nor challenge a child's belief in the Genesis Creation stories and a good science class allowing for critical thinking--there can be no science without critical thinking--will include intelligent design as one theory of the development of the universe along with the Big Bang Theory and Darwin, none of which have to be mutually exclusive.

No honest science class would even mention Intelligent design, any more than it should mention Astrology or Wicca.

 

[alang1216]

That's not entirely true. I believe in the historicty of the events of Jesus Christ because of the 24,000 written manuscripts, the behaviors and actions of the early Christians/Apostles and my own personal experiences. If I understand your argument it's that the authors of the 24,000 written manuscripts, the early Christians and the apostles were either bamboozled by a conspiracy of epic proportion or were co-conspirators. You aren't questioning the existence of the manuscripts or the behaviors of the early Christians and apostles. You are questioning my believing these facts at face value.

Is that a fair assessment of your argument?

Because I don't believe you have any evidence of a conspiracy.

Conspiracy is your word, not mine, so it is not a fair assessment. You are welcome to believe any facts you wish and ignore any facts that don't fit but just because you believe something, no matter how strongly, doesn't make them 'facts'. I don't think we need to get into the numerous discrepancies in the manuscripts.

 

[alang1216]

Right now I don't believe we can agree on anything. You don't know the first thing about my faith. The kingdom of heaven is now. I experience the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... now. It's not some conceptual thing that is far off into the future. It's a relationship I am in now. There is nothing it doesn't influence. It's part of the fabric of my identity.

If you don't think overdoing alcohol or heroin is a very destructive thing, you're right, we won't agree on anything.

 

[alang1216]

Haven't we already had this discussion? Natural selection has two components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. If belief in a higher power provided no functional advantage it would have died out long ago. The reason belief in God has existed in overwhelming numbers in every civilization since the beginning of man is that it provides a functional advantage. And that functional advantage is hope, peace, love, truth and virtue.

Since every civilization has its own version of the supernatural it is hard for me to discern any one that offers an advantage over the others. I'm not sure the pagan religions I'm familiar with offered peace or love, they were purely transactional.

 

[ding]

You say that like opiates are a bad thing.

I say it like you think religion is a bad thing.

 

[ding]

Conspiracy is your word, not mine, so it is not a fair assessment. You are welcome to believe any facts you wish and ignore any facts that don't fit but just because you believe something, no matter how strongly, doesn't make them 'facts'. I don't think we need to get into the numerous discrepancies in the manuscripts.

How can it not be a conspiracy if it is made up as you have suggested? Why do you believe it was made up? Was it an honest mistake? Or was it intentional?

 

[ding]

If you don't think overdoing alcohol or heroin is a very destructive thing, you're right, we won't agree on anything.

I think you are playing games and not being honest. You refer to the religious as alcoholics and heroin addicts. You argue the basis of their beliefs are made up. You argue that you are educating the ignorant. Yet when I call you out on each you crawfish away from your statements.

 

[ding]

Since every civilization has its own version of the supernatural it is hard for me to discern any one that offers an advantage over the others. I'm not sure the pagan religions I'm familiar with offered peace or love, they were purely transactional.

And now you deny Darwinian principles. Why do you believe religious beliefs continue to exist in such overwhelming numbers?

Is it a drug addiction? Conspiracy? Ignorance?

Because I have already explained why. Functional advantage.

 

[ding]

At least Marx leaned into his arguments.

 

[alang1216]

I say it like you think religion is a bad thing.

Like all of man's institutions, it is both good and bad.

 

[alang1216]

How can it not be a conspiracy if it is made up as you have suggested? Why do you believe it was made up? Was it an honest mistake? Or was it intentional?

As I said before, 'conspiracy' implies planning and coordination and except for things like the First Council of Nicaea, there was none.
There are parts of the NT that were intentionally inserted much later so I doubt they were genuine.
Of the thousands of manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts we have, none agree 100% but the vast majority of these are honest mistakes.

 

[Blisterfinger]

i. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240811 {post•12612}. NotfooledbyW Sep’23 Vrvwgo provides except from Business Insider :
Jenna Ellis
View attachment 993803
Mark Meadows sent a memo to top Mike Pence aide from a Trump campaign lawyer outlining how to overturn the 2020 election: book. •¥•. In the memo, the lawyer Jenna Ellis devised a plan for Pence to send back the electoral votes of six states that Trump said he won, a new book says. www.businessinsider.com. nfbw 230925 Vrvwgo11216


ii. Separation of Church and State? 240810 {post•225}. ding Aug’24 Ssocas: The kingdom of heaven is now. I experience the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... now. dvng 240810 S 00215


iii. Separation of Church and State? 240811 {post•225}

NotfooledbyW Aug’24: Just keep your Athanasian Paradox (jffrsn) churchiness Saint_Ding out of secular state lawmaking.

Your Churchiness has created quite the serious ¥%#€storm church-mess for our nation and for the most hardest being hit - the Republican Party.

Don Trump’s ownership of the calamitous Dobbs decision from the Kingdom of Heaven’s political machine, that His Majesty Don Trump leads, is on the world stage playing out before our very eyes.

The Kingdom of Heaven / Confederate States Merger of 1973 is breaking up,

The Conservative demolition of the wall of separation of church and state was a very successful project for the top wealth percenters the past five decades.

No More - We are not a Christian Nation and never were and thank to Natures’s God we never will be. Thank You Democrats as well. Jefferson and Madison separation of church and state has been tested, but it’s coming back..


iv Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 231024 {post•11601}. ding Oct’23 Srvwgo: “Abortion should be a misdemeanor”. dvng 231024 Srvwgo11601


v. Separation of Church and State? 240811 {post•221}

How can I help? When you want to pass religious laws Saint_Ding keep them for your Kingdom of God. Or as America’s Dad Tim Walz says “Mind your own damn business!

Follows is an example of the Republican Church Mess you helped make by disrespecting Separation of Church and State in America;

nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo00225


N i. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240810 {post•12604}. RetiredGySgt Aug’24 Srvwgo: I simply scroll past his crap and noturd too. rtdgnnrydgt 240810 Srvwgo12604

N ii. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240810 {post•12609}. Monk-Eye Aug’24 Srvwgo: A first rule damned dirty apes should attempt to apply is not to destroy its own well being . mvnk-vyv 240810 Srvwgo12609

N iii. Roe v. Wade getting overturned!! 240811 {post•12612}. NotfooledbyW Aug’24 Vrvwgo provides substance over slop:Saint_Retiredgysgt is whistling past the graveyard with the zombie of a Saint Blisterfinger snarling at his side,

The authoritarian Joint Venture between Don the Con Trump and Phylis ‘holier than all female thou(s) Schlafly (rip) has one foot in the ‘pit of fallen angels hell and the other on a banana peel.

Three slices of the MAGA death watch the next 2.5 weeks are:

(1) Harris/Walz flirting with a double digit lead in the presidential election poll averaging sites.

(2) Mugshot of Trump being indicted by the prosecutor in Arizona as the grand jury originally demanded for his criminal leading the criminal conspiracy in the false elector plot to overturn the 2020 election on J6,2021,

(3) The effect of Jenna Ellis’s flipping on Don Trump on her ( AFR.net - Talk Player ) show (8:00 AM m-f) and the American Family Network’s zombie nation when they find out she betrayed Trump for a few pieces of silver just like Judas betrayed her Lord and Savior the Almighty Jesus Christ. nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo12612

nfbw 240811 Vrvwgo00225

Wow what drivel.

 

[alang1216]

I think you are playing games and not being honest. You refer to the religious as alcoholics and heroin addicts. You argue the basis of their beliefs are made up. You argue that you are educating the ignorant. Yet when I call you out on each you crawfish away from your statements.

I think you are interpreting my posts as you want to, not as I meant them.