Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

[Lipush]

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

 

[Lipush]

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

Israeli government is Extrimist Zionism?

When did that happen?

And how come I didn't get the memo?

No memo required....

Just look at what your beloved leader says and does on an almost daily basis.... ;-)

That I see. And that's the source of confusion

 

[Coyote]

Let's get back to the topic please:

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

 

[Boston1]

Let's get back to the topic please:

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

No problem

If you'd like to move the last few posts to the new thread that'd be awesome

Does international law require Israel to vacate the disputed territories

 

[flacaltenn]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

 

[flacaltenn]

Thread Closed for Moderation..

Most of the last 3 pages is WAY off-topic..
Will re-open shortly...

 

[flacaltenn]

bump...

 

[montelatici]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

 

[Shusha]

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

The idea that Jews believe themselves to be a "master race" and that Jews believe themselves to be superior to everyone else and that Jews should be separate are classic anti-semitic tropes based on a deliberate misunderstanding of the concept of "choseness". The Jewish people, as a whole, hold no such ideology. (Though you may find rare, isolated extremists who do). So yes, this is classic anti-semitism.

 

[Boston1]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

LOL Monty claiming someone else is just making shit up

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, I agree. The British Mandatory did not create Israel.

Indeed, and they did not create a Jewish state. Britain did a lot of dirty, rotten things but did not create a Jewish state.

(COMMENT)

The Allied Powers and the UN General Assembly set the conditions and the Israelis successfully took advantage of the window of opportunity and made nation for themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

I think you are confusing Judaism with Zionism. You should read the thoughts of leading Zionists of the time and you will see that they saw themselves as superior to the native people and as having the right to rule over them as Europeans had done elsewhere in prior centuries. For example:


Ze'ev Jabotinsky

"There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.

And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or ( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands; but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad.

Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators................
I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are five hundred years behind us, they have neither our endurance nor our determination; but they are just as good psychologists as we are, and their minds have been sharpened like ours by centuries of fine-spun logomachy. We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. They feel at least the same instinctive jealous love of Palestine, as the old Aztecs felt for ancient Mexico, and the Sioux for their rolling Prairies.

To imagine, as our Arabophiles do, that they will voluntarily consent to the realisation of Zionism, in return for the moral and material conveniences which the Jewish colonist brings with him, is a childish notion, which has at bottom a kind of contempt for the Arab people; it means that they despise the Arab race, which they regard as a corrupt mob that can be bought and sold, and are willing to give up their fatherland for a good railway system. "

"The Iron Wall" | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[montelatici]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

LOL Monty claiming someone else is just making shit up

Asking what Zionism has to do with Judaism is "making up shit"? Grow up.

 

[flacaltenn]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

 

[montelatici]

Interesting thread, but full of the usual “bru-ha-ha” of Zionist Hasbara, childish name calling, wild inaccuracies and demonization of the other side. I thought about the question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism when I started researching into the mess that is the state of Israel and the state of Palestine and I could go on about my personal journey from being pro-Israel to becoming pro-Palestinian, but that’s boring.

Instead I’d like to publish an article written by an Israeli who served in the Irgun and the elite “Samson’s Foxes” company of the Givati brigade during the 1948 war where he fought with distinction and was seriously wounded in the closing days of the war. His views, written in 2004 on this very topic cut through the bullshit and are well worth the read, I’ve reproduced it in full and provide a link to the original to avoid any copyright infringement by this website:

“A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. “Why do you look so happy?” he asks. “I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today,” his friend replies. The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. “The Israelis downed another eight MiGs,” he announces. On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. “What happened? Didn’t the Israelis down any MiGs today?” the man asks. “They did,” the friend answers, “But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!” This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor; Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime; Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the “Christian morality of compassion”; Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu, his or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti-Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?
Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel’s actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive; it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behaviour in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?
Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?
That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow-Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?
Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a “nation of victims”. Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday’s victims are today’s victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?
Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel’s behaviour towards the Palestinians, who appear as “the victims of the victims”.

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?
That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more “interesting”, considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call “terrorism”, seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?
No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain “experts”, there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighbouring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor’an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the “Peoples of the Book” (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren’t the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?
Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti-Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world’s population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony “Protocols” in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir’s music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?
Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite?
Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti-Capitalist without being anti-American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be “anti-Zionists”. They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

Anti-Zionism means being against a racist master race ideology.

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

Only the very confused would consider a state that rules over unenfranchised population of several million, about the size of the enfranchised population, a success. By that

 

[flacaltenn]

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

Only the very confused would consider a state that rules over unenfranchised population of several million, about the size of the enfranchised population, a success. By that

That is a UNIQUE problem that most "normal secular states" don't have. And it IS a problem. But the answer to that problem is NOT dismantling Israel and pushing it into the sea (anti-zionist approach) -- the answer is to partner up in a mentoring/stabilizing situation for the Palestinians and get them to focus on THEIR responsibilities towards self-governance and self-rule.

 

[Lipush]

I've got no problem with MOST of that.. It's entirely rational.. Except for this part..

Zionism today is a old man.. No teeth, needs a walker and doesn't really keep up well on Current Events. There is NO NEED for a "zionist" today. Other than to wag a tongue in favor of Israel or worry about it's issues.

The only TRUE anti-zionists today are a handful of ultra religious Jews who oppose an Israeli homeland on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.. The rest of the "anti-zionists" oppose the State of Israel on political/sectarian lines. And they use the "anti-zionist" Jews as a chess piece to validate their rejection of a Jewish Homeland in the Holy Land.

So they can rightfully claim that they are not anti-Jew -- but their real schtick is -- they oppose the right of Israel to exist and to be secure.. They HIDE behind this anti-zionist label instead of actually stating their position on Israel.

Go ahead -- poll them. Scratch an anti-zionist -- and they will be more than willing to dismantle Israel brick by brick. AT THAT POINT -- it BECOMES an anti-Jewish position..

Quit hiding behind a dead nationalist movement with no current relevance and we can move on with what ever "HATE" that leaves us with...

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

This is anti-semitism.

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

LOL Monty claiming someone else is just making shit up

Asking what Zionism has to do with Judaism is "making up shit"? Grow up.

So let's give a staight answer to that. Not only Zionism goes hand in hand with Judaism. Judaism in its core is based on Zionism.

How's that for a straight answer.

 

[flacaltenn]

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

LOL Monty claiming someone else is just making shit up

Asking what Zionism has to do with Judaism is "making up shit"? Grow up.

So let's give a staight answer to that. Not only Zionism goes hand in hand with Judaism. Judaism in its core is based on Zionism.

How's that for a straight answer.

Interesting.. And it IS a straight answer.. But what does the POLITICAL ENTITY known as Zionism have to do with protecting Israel's right to exist? Was it ever invoked in a UN proceeding? Is it enshrined in Israeli Law? Does Israel have voting rights on the Zionist counsel?

If I support Israel's right to exist and as a Jew choose not to emigrate to Zion -- am i a BAD jew?

 

[Humanity]

I have a few issues with this article...

I have many Semite friends so cannot really call myself anti-semitic

I believe that Jews have a right, as does everyone have a right, to a 'homeland' so cannot really call myself anti-zionist

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist zionists, Israeli government for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

I do have issues with what I consider the extremist muslims, Hamas for example, who are simply belligerent or, perhaps, belligerently simple!

So, what's with this article?

It goes some way, not far enough, perhaps not clearly enough in my opinion, in an attempt to show that there really is a difference between anti-semitic and anti-zionist...

In the same way that there is a difference between race and religion... Though most people prefer to muddy the waters by mixing the two, normally to benefit their own argument!

Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

Israeli government is Extrimist Zionism?

When did that happen?

And how come I didn't get the memo?

No memo required....

Just look at what your beloved leader says and does on an almost daily basis.... ;-)

That I see. And that's the source of confusion

The source of confusion is?

a) Not receiving a memo
b) Netanyahu

 

[Humanity]

If I support Israel's right to exist and as a Jew choose not to emigrate to Zion -- am i a BAD jew?

Is the answer yes? ;-)