Secession

Do you believe secession is legal under the Constitution?


  • Total voters
    9

Kevin_Kennedy

Defend Liberty
Aug 27, 2008
18,602
1,968
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The question is, do you think states have the right to secede from the union, if they so choose to?

I believe this topic is often dismissed because of it's assumed association with the issue of slavery due to the Confederate States of America allowing slavery, while the northern states did not allow it. However, the truth is that there was also slavery permitted in the Union during the time of the Civil War, and Lincoln had no intention of ending slavery when he began the Civil War.

Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, and West Virginia referred to as "border states," and they were part of the Union and allowed slavery. Lincoln confessed many times that he did not believe black people equal to white people, and that he was not adverse to them being slaves. He merely wanted to "save" the Union. His Emancipation Proclamation didn't free every slave in America, it merely freed the slaves in the Confederate States. Or more accurately, Lincoln "freed" only the slaves that he didn't actually have any authority to free. His intentions were clear, because the war was not, at the time, going in his favor, he wanted Confederate slaves to rise up and kill their masters.

However, secession and slavery are two different topics, I am merely trying to point out that they don't have to go hand in hand. More importantly, not all people who believe secession is legal believe that slavery was good or just or anything of the sort. Onto the topic at hand.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." - Declaration of Independence 1776

It is my opinion that secession is legal, and that the federal government has no authority to stop any state that wishes to secede for any reason. If the benefits of seceding outweigh the negatives, then that state should be free and clear to leave the Union without incident.

Those that will argue that the Supreme Court has decided that secession is illegal are correct, they certainly did decide that in White v. Texas. However, I ask those that believe in this decision to find for me where in the Constitution the federal government is given the authority to stop states from leaving the Union. The Constitution was meant to restrain the power of the federal government, not that of the citizens or the states. So where in the world did the Supreme Court find this authority for the federal government to stop states from seceding?

The truth is that they made it up. Therefore, their decision that secession is illegal is unconstitutional and should not be enforced.

"...whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and no force; that to this compact each state acceded as a state, and is an integral party; that this government, created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers..." - Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolve of 1798

The part of Jefferson's quote that says, "that this government, created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers," is especially telling. The Supreme Court is part of the federal government, and it has basically been assumed that it has the final say in matters of "constitutional law." However, this quote shows that Jefferson did not believe this to be so.

Since the Supreme Court is part of the federal government, Jefferson says that it is not the final word on all things Constitutional, because they will obviously decide that the Constitution gives them unlimited power. This certainly merits some reflection on our parts. Do we really want a government that gets to decide the limit of it's own powers, or would we rather have the Constitutional Republic the founders' created for us?
 
A question like this is not really subject to legal analysis (though that's fun) because if it came to head, it would be through force of overwhelming will, or, actual force. That is, war. Debates about states' rights or what the founders said and meant would be trampled under the feet of soldiers and rebels.

The U.S. is going to break up, no question about it. Question is when and how.

I have always consider the Declaration of Independence to be good precedent. If the motherfuckers are fucking with us too much, fuck 'em.

I agree with David Duke that we should stop calling this 'our country'. It's THEIR country now... and we need to move on.
 
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Well the question is, would they be right to send the troops in to stop a state from seceding, and why?
 
If the Other States agreed to allow the state to leave it is legal. However a State can not unilaterally decide to leave.

Lincoln basically said the same thing. I disagree, but I'd like to hear why you think one state needs the permission of the other states to leave.
 
The States are not independent entities. Except for the first 13 colonies every State was created from Federal Land, the Government allowed it to form as a territory and allowed it to petition to join as a State. The same process that allows a territory to join is needed to allow a State to leave the Union.

The Civil War set the standard. The 1869 Supreme Court decision sealed the deal. The claim that each State was free to join and so free to leave is simply not true. The only exception being perhaps the first 13 colonies. Every other State was not "free" to not become property of the US. They started out as property of the Federal Government. ( well Texas was a separate entity but owed the US tons of money).
 
The States are not independent entities. Except for the first 13 colonies every State was created from Federal Land, the Government allowed it to form as a territory and allowed it to petition to join as a State. The same process that allows a territory to join is needed to allow a State to leave the Union.

The Civil War set the standard. The 1869 Supreme Court decision sealed the deal. The claim that each State was free to join and so free to leave is simply not true. The only exception being perhaps the first 13 colonies. Every other State was not "free" to not become property of the US. They started out as property of the Federal Government. ( well Texas was a separate entity but owed the US tons of money).

Your reasoning implies that different states have different rights, which is not the case. The Constitution protects each state in the exact same way. By allowing these territories to become states protected under the Constitution the federal government gave up any and all claims of ownership over the land.

The only standard set by the Civil War was that the government would do whatever was necessary to force an unwilling state to remain in the union. As I stated before, Texas v. White is unconstitutional and therefore, to quote Thomas Jefferson, "unauthoritative, void, and no force..."
 
a state would have to form its own defense...its own montary system....etc...too complex...is nc going to raise an army and print there own money....i just do not see it happening....

i do however think it is a right of the state and approved under certian guidelines by the constitution....
 
Legality has NOTHING to do with an issue like this.

POWER is the key issue.

FWIW, breaking up the USA would be a very very stupid thing to do.

Why?

Because the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts, folks.

Now I do not entirely doubt that the USA won't break up sometime in the future, because that sort of thing does happen.

But as to whether I think it would be a good thing?

Absolutely not.

No region is this nation would do as well as is does now, if it stood alone.
 
The States are not independent entities. Except for the first 13 colonies every State was created from Federal Land, the Government allowed it to form as a territory and allowed it to petition to join as a State. The same process that allows a territory to join is needed to allow a State to leave the Union.

The Civil War set the standard. The 1869 Supreme Court decision sealed the deal. The claim that each State was free to join and so free to leave is simply not true. The only exception being perhaps the first 13 colonies. Every other State was not "free" to not become property of the US. They started out as property of the Federal Government. ( well Texas was a separate entity but owed the US tons of money).

I don't know what "1869 Supreme Court decision" you're talking about, but you could not be more wrong that states aren't independent entities. And states being "property of the Federal Government" would not be recognized by the most liberal legal scholar alive! (Seriously, what does that mean? If your state is "property" of the federal government, why's it got its own constitution, government, etc.?)

To say that the "Civil War set the standard" is right as a practical matter, but not a legal one. "Victory in war" is only one kind of precedent, easily overturned by...

another victory in war!
 
85% of Nevada is Federal land.

Nevada does not own it.

Nevada laws do not apply.

The Western states exist solely as such because the United States of American created them.

Their legal right to secede is highly questionable.

Of course in issues like secession, legality is really not the issue.

The real issue is power.
 
The question is, do you think states have the right to secede from the union, if they so choose to?

I believe this topic is often dismissed because of it's assumed association with the issue of slavery due to the Confederate States of America allowing slavery, while the northern states did not allow it. However, the truth is that there was also slavery permitted in the Union during the time of the Civil War, and Lincoln had no intention of ending slavery when he began the Civil War.

Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, and West Virginia referred to as "border states," and they were part of the Union and allowed slavery. Lincoln confessed many times that he did not believe black people equal to white people, and that he was not adverse to them being slaves. He merely wanted to "save" the Union. His Emancipation Proclamation didn't free every slave in America, it merely freed the slaves in the Confederate States. Or more accurately, Lincoln "freed" only the slaves that he didn't actually have any authority to free. His intentions were clear, because the war was not, at the time, going in his favor, he wanted Confederate slaves to rise up and kill their masters.

However, secession and slavery are two different topics, I am merely trying to point out that they don't have to go hand in hand. More importantly, not all people who believe secession is legal believe that slavery was good or just or anything of the sort. Onto the topic at hand.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." - Declaration of Independence 1776

It is my opinion that secession is legal, and that the federal government has no authority to stop any state that wishes to secede for any reason. If the benefits of seceding outweigh the negatives, then that state should be free and clear to leave the Union without incident.

Those that will argue that the Supreme Court has decided that secession is illegal are correct, they certainly did decide that in White v. Texas. However, I ask those that believe in this decision to find for me where in the Constitution the federal government is given the authority to stop states from leaving the Union. The Constitution was meant to restrain the power of the federal government, not that of the citizens or the states. So where in the world did the Supreme Court find this authority for the federal government to stop states from seceding?

The truth is that they made it up. Therefore, their decision that secession is illegal is unconstitutional and should not be enforced.

"...whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and no force; that to this compact each state acceded as a state, and is an integral party; that this government, created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers..." - Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolve of 1798

The part of Jefferson's quote that says, "that this government, created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers," is especially telling. The Supreme Court is part of the federal government, and it has basically been assumed that it has the final say in matters of "constitutional law." However, this quote shows that Jefferson did not believe this to be so.

Since the Supreme Court is part of the federal government, Jefferson says that it is not the final word on all things Constitutional, because they will obviously decide that the Constitution gives them unlimited power. This certainly merits some reflection on our parts. Do we really want a government that gets to decide the limit of it's own powers, or would we rather have the Constitutional Republic the founders' created for us?

Kevin, I answered yes because I believe our succession from England was legal based on the fact that there was a clear breach of Social Contract as outlined in the Declaration of Independence. I really do not know where you are trying to go with this. The Southern States had recourse through their representatives just as we do now so even if there were Federal abuses the position was not hapless. This wasn't the case behind the War of Independence where representation was denied therefore the basis of a legal succession. For succession to occur today there would have to be a clear breach with no other recourse. Simply choosing to leave doesn't cut it. You are treating the union as if it were conceived by the founders to be a flippant and casual thing. It wasn't and certainly the south found that out the hard way...
 
Kevin, I answered yes because I believe our succession from England was legal based on the fact that there was a clear breach of Social Contract as outlined in the Declaration of Independence. I really do not know where you are trying to go with this. The Southern States had recourse through their representatives just as we do now so even if there were Federal abuses the position was not hapless. This wasn't the case behind the War of Independence where representation was denied therefore the basis of a legal succession. For succession to occur today there would have to be a clear breach with no other recourse. Simply choosing to leave doesn't cut it. You are treating the union as if it were conceived by the founders to be a flippant and casual thing. It wasn't and certainly the south found that out the hard way...

Yeah, that's right.

Did you folks know that for a time in the early 19th century, various New England states also contemplated succession from the Union?

It might not entirely surpise some of you that tariffs, trade policies and taxation were at the heart of their complaints, too.
 
Your reasoning implies that different states have different rights, which is not the case. The Constitution protects each state in the exact same way. By allowing these territories to become states protected under the Constitution the federal government gave up any and all claims of ownership over the land.

The only standard set by the Civil War was that the government would do whatever was necessary to force an unwilling state to remain in the union. As I stated before, Texas v. White is unconstitutional and therefore, to quote Thomas Jefferson, "unauthoritative, void, and no force..."

You don't get to decide what Supreme Court decisions are " Unconstitutional" Or does that mean I can decalre Roe Vs Wade Unconstitutional?
 
Your reasoning implies that different states have different rights, which is not the case. The Constitution protects each state in the exact same way. By allowing these territories to become states protected under the Constitution the federal government gave up any and all claims of ownership over the land.

The Federal Government has eminent domain over all territory and the final repertory for all property public and private within that territory. You have some interesting views Kevin but they do not seem to be constitutionally based. Our revolution and Constitution was based largely on Locke's Two Treatises of Government. The intent of the founders was to form a civil society with natural rights based on contract theory. Contracts are not one sided endeavors as you seem to think. Government is guardian and protector but your notion that we [government] protect that which we have no recourse over is pure nonsense...
 
I agree with William on at least one point... some day, probably soon, the people of some geographic region, probably Alaska, will determine that the cost and loss of freedom required to be part of the United States is greater than the benefits. The people of Kosovo declared themselves free... it is not unprecedented, even in recent history.

If the Commander in Chief has the stones and support from 'America' to send troops and those troops are willing to shoot the rebellious American citizens, secession will be deemed 'illegal'. If the president has no stones or support, if his troops are too squeamish to follow orders to shoot the rebel Americans, the secession will succeed and be deemed legal.

The beauty of 'America' is that we get to decide what is legal and what is not legal at any given point in time... at least it used to be.

-Joe
 
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I voted 'no' because of the way the question is worded: '...legal under the constitution...'

I as a citizen would support the rebels in a secessionist movement, but I think even a shitty lawyer could successfully argue a case against secession, all things (todays judicial attitudes) being equal.

-Joe
 
I agree with William on at least one point... some day, probably soon, the people of some geographic region, probably Alaska, will determine that the cost and loss of freedom required to be part of the United States is greater than the benefits. The people of Kosovo declared themselves free... it is not unprecedented, even in recent history.

If the Commander in Chief has the stones and support from 'America' to send troops and those troops are willing to shoot the rebellious American citizens, secession will be deemed 'illegal'. If the president has no stones or support, if his troops too squeamish to follow orders to shoot rebel Americans, the secession will succeed and be deemed legal.

The beauty of 'America' is that we get to decide what is legal and what is not legal at any given point in time... at least it used to be.

-Joe

Given US history, in fact given human history, I have not a moment's doubt that US troops would openly fire on sucessionists regardless of what state they are from or no matter how noble their sentiments.

It takes a lot ~ a WHOLE lot ~ to convince men in uniform to break their chains of command.

Historically speaking, about the only time that happens is when the revolution starts within the military.

There are some exceptions to that general rule.

The Sailors of the Russian Navy rebelled against the Tsar, as did SOME units of the Tsars army.

But remember how their lives had been squandered in the WWI BEFORE the troops reached the point where they'd openly rebel, too.

And the Russian officer corps was in no way shape or form forged by military academies like our officer corps are.

Now it IS true that that US officer corps found plenty of willing rebels during the American civil war, but the nation they were rebelling from was much much much more parochial than today.

In those days, one's state citizenship was much more important to people than it is today.

People still spoke in these terms until the war

The United States of America ARE...

Now we say (and therefore think) that the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS...

Such quirks in speech have meaning, folks.

The create reality for us in ways that change the way we think about our coiety and our place in it.

I do NOT think of myslef as a Mainer (or Pennsylvania) first.

I am an AMERICAN CITIZEN who happens to reside in a state.

And given how families are so much more mobile than they were in 1860, I suspect that most people, think about themselves and their relation to the states and nation in much the same way.

So I do not think that any regional or state secessionist movment is going to get a whole lot of traction.

Oh it might happen, but not until the US Federal system breaks down so much that people have no choice BUT to turn to state governments for succor.

Right now for most of us, State governments are mostly just a pain in our asses.

They're just the people who make us stand in line to get our drivers' licenses.

But the states don't have the psychological hold over most of us as the nation does.

When you folks are overseas, and somebody asks you where you're from, do you say your a Virginian or whatever state you're from, or do you say:
I am an American
Such seemingly minor things as that are significant, I think.

I cannot help but note that the most state oriented people almost ALWAYS hail from the South.

You Southerners are still identifying yourselves by state affiliation much much more than most non-Southerners typically do.







 
You don't get to decide what Supreme Court decisions are " Unconstitutional" Or does that mean I can decalre Roe Vs Wade Unconstitutional?

Actually, there is a historical precedent of states refusing to acknowledge what they deemed to be unconstitutional laws. For example, President Thomas Jefferson enacted trade embargoes on Britain in 1807, which were formally nullified by the New England states whose economy heavily depended on trade. They cited Jefferson's own Kentucky Resolve of 1798 against him. The embargo was officially nullified on Feb. 5, 1809 in Massachusetts who claimed that the embargo was "unjust, oppressive, unconstitutional. While this State maintains its sovereignty and independence, all the citizens can find protection against outrage and injustice in the strong arm of State government." Connecticut found that the embargo was "incompatible with the Constitution of the United States, and encroaching upon the immunities of the State."

Therefore, the states absolutely do have the right to decide whether a law is unconstitutional or not. As to whether you get to decide if Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional, absolutely. And you would have my full support as well, because it is unconstitutional. I would suggest you petition your state legislature to nullify the decision and decide themselves whether to legalize abortion, as that right is given to them under the 10th Amendment. However, I doubt they will because the federal government would threaten to deny some amount of funds to them if they did so.
 
Given US history, in fact given human history, I have not a moment's doubt that US troops would openly fire on sucessionists regardless of what state they are from or no matter how noble their sentiments.

It takes a lot ~ a WHOLE lot ~ to convince men in uniform to break their chains of command...


It still requires a Commander in Chief with the stones to order troops to fire on Americans...

If you think Bush has a low approval rating...

-Joe
 
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