Zone1 Scriptural and logical evidence of Purgatory

[nomadic5]

Matthew 5:48

says Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect

ha ha... right. As if we can be perfect, we who are sinners and can't seem to help being such until the day we die (and maybe even afterward. Jesus said FEW find the narrow way to Heaven...[ didn't have to tell me twice ])

so there's (one of many) Scripture psgs

Here's the logical part

If God is all good and all wise and all loving

He isn't going to toss someone into Hell... Oh, wait.. isn't going to allow someone who follows Him to pitch him/herself into Hell just because of imperfections (violations of Mt 5:48)... imperfections the person may have struggled to overcome but wasn't always successful.. and then death came before it was anticipated...

 

[nomadic5]

ha ha.. kind of funny

no one responds to this thread.. They apparently just want to hang onto their anti-Catholic prejudice

and this kind refutation of their (usually) irrational view is just unacceptable

so many people ignore truth and choose to believe only what they want to believe

The devil likes that...

 

[nomadic5]

Matthew 5:48

says Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect

ha ha... right. As if we can be perfect, we who are sinners and can't seem to help being such until the day we die (and maybe even afterward. Jesus said FEW find the narrow way to Heaven...[ didn't have to tell me twice ])

so there's (one of many) Scripture psgs

Here's the logical part

If God is all good and all wise and all loving

He isn't going to toss someone into Hell... Oh, wait.. isn't going to allow someone who follows Him to pitch him/herself into Hell just because of imperfections (violations of Mt 5:48)... imperfections the person may have struggled to overcome but wasn't always successful.. and then death came before it was anticipated...

 

[nomadic5]

Few humans are really ready to die... it seems 99% of deaths (of people under, say, the age of 70) are not anticipated...

so if you say God is all loving, you have to believe that He does not give up on one of His people just because he isn't "perfect" .. meaning: ready for Heaven, where there is no sin.. where "no unclean thing will enter" (Revelation)

 

[nomadic5]

I conclude from the fact that protesters are not coming to this thread that they are of ill will

bad faith

in their anti-Catholic-ness. I doubt I am wrong.

I say they have some worldly agenda for rejecting the Catholic faith... worldly as in: I have a good life not being Catholic.. maybe I'll go to Hell for not investigating what purports to be the One True religion established by Jesus Christ but... I'm fine with that bc Hell is likely a partying place anyhow...

to that I say

See what Jesus, Most Trustworthy Person on Earth EVER

had to say about it

He calls it "eternal punishment" (mt 25:31)

doesn't sound much like a party to me...

 

[Augustine_]

Here's the logical part

 

[nomadic5]

What Is A Victim Soul? | Simply Catholic

To speak of certain holy individuals whom we collectively call "victim souls" takes us into territory that many Christians often fail to understand: the redemptive power of human suffering. A victim soul is an individual

www.simplycatholic.com

What is a victim soul?

Basically it is someone God chooses to "victimize" (my words) to suffer for the sins of others as Christ did. See info at site above for other ways of saying/explaing...

I don't know if this site is as orthodox as others I've been to but as far as I have read right now, it seems it is not heterodox

 

[Blues Man]

You cannot prove purgatory exists just like you cannot prove heaven exists.

 

[nomadic5]

You cannot prove purgatory exists just like you cannot prove heaven exists.

God has revealed to me the reality ofboth

one example: how is it at all logical, as some atheists and others claim, that this life has no meaning at all.. What would be the point of our often miserable existence? All these problems and never any end except ceasing to exist?

Does that make sense?

Some of us don't have a complaint about ceasing to exist bc it means relief from misery...

Yet the Ancient Church taught ending it all is a mortal sin and I say that is so... not only bc the Church taught it (still does) but because it causes a lot of pain to those left behind and it is a sin to distrust God to that extent... etc...

 

[Blues Man]

God has revealed to me the reality ofboth

one example: how is it at all logical, as some atheists and others claim, that this life has no meaning at all.. What would be the point of our often miserable existence? All these problems and never any end except ceasing to exist?

Does that make sense?

Some of us don't have a complaint about ceasing to exist bc it means relief from misery...

Yet the Ancient Church taught ending it all is a mortal sin and I say that is so... not only bc the Church taught it (still does) but because it causes a lot of pain to those left behind and it is a sin to distrust God to that extent... etc...

I'm not an atheist.

There is no evidence that gods exist but there is no evidence they don't either.

Personally I don't care if gods exist or not. I don't need a god to define my purpose in life as I can do that myself.

 

[nomadic5]

I'm not an atheist.

There is no evidence that gods exist but there is no evidence they don't either.

Personally I don't care if gods exist or not. I don't need a god to define my purpose in life as I can do that myself.

I say humans don't do well without God... We look around and we see wht the Godless do:

they sexualize our most precious "thing" our children!!!!!

People who know Christ do NOT do that! They love children as they are-- save for their tendency toward lawlessness and selfishness, but they are those things out of ignorance/innocence... whereas adults are w/o excuse

 

[ninja007]

A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism

by Richard Bennett

“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17

Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word​ ​	Topic​	New Catechism Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)​
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth​ “....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35 “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17 “That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​	The Basis of​ Truth​	Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope ​ “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80 And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81 “As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82 “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith​ “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​	Salvation by Grace Alone​	For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church​ “Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129 “One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God ​ “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​	Faith is God-given ​ and sustained​	Faith comes through the Mother Church​ ​ “It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered​ “...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12 “...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​	Christ’s Atonement Sufficient Finished Sacrifice​	Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church​ In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367 “The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​

God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness​ “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3 “Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4 “There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​	God, the Only All Holy One​	Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness​ “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677 “From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates ​ “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​	One Mediator​	In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates​ ​ “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry​ “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16 “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​	Idolatry​	The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry​ “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132 “Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131​
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible​ “There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​	Communion with the Dead​	This Practice is Recommended by Rome​ “Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958 “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 26​

 

[ninja007]

What the Catechism Says
​

​

Now, before I go into particular texts that make purgatory, I think, untenable biblically, let’s define it the way the Roman Catholic Church does, because they’re the ones who promote this doctrine, and let’s see whether Lewis’s argument stands on its own terms. Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says in defining purgatory.

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

“Nobody’s going into the very presence of God with any stain or inner sin left.”

That’s all from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no doubt that we must be purified completely, without sin, in order to enter the very presence of God in our final state. Otherwise, we’d be incinerated, and God would be defiled and dishonored. None of us believes that is going to happen. We’re all in agreement about that. That’s not going to happen. Nobody’s going into the very presence of God with any stain or inner sin left.

But here’s the assumption that Lewis and the Catholic Church bring to the situation: their assumption is that it requires another process, beyond the process of this life, to get abiding sin out of our lives. Now, why would they assume that? Since we had a relatively long process of purification or sanctification in this life by the Holy Spirit, and it did not perfect us, we realize it’s going to take a divine stroke or word of purification by the hand of God or the word of God, the way Jesus purified people instantaneously with a word, in order to finish this purifying work. Why would we not rather assume that God does it first progressively in this life, and then at the end finishes it instantaneously?

What Scripture Says
​

​

But enough with our human reasoning; let’s go to the Bible. The Roman Catholic Church includes some books in their Bible, called the Apocrypha, which Protestants don’t have in our Bible. One of those books is 2 Maccabees, and in 2 Maccabees 12:45, there is this sentence: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” Now from that statement, the Catholic Church infers that not only should you pray for the dead, but the dead have sins from which they must be delivered, which leads them to postulate purgatory.

Now Sydney, in his question, points out that if you’re going to go after any New Testament text at all to support purgatory, the one you would go to most is 1 Corinthians 3:13–15, and I’ll quote it again to show how inapplicable it is to purgatory.

Each one’s work [each Christian’s work] will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it [this is the judgment day, in which we are going to be shown to be true or false, and our works are going to be shown to be stubble or valuable], because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Now in that text, there’s no hint of passing through an extended period of time with the aim of cleansing us from our own impurities. This is a picture of a single, one-time event where our works from this life are shown to be either stubble, for which there’s no reward, or precious stones, for which there will be a reward. There’s no foundation here for purgatory in a text like this.

On the contrary, several texts point in the opposite direction about what happens when we die as Christians. Here’s what Paul says in Philippians 1:23: “My desire is to depart [that is, die] and be with Christ, for that is far better.” The picture is death and an immediate, joyful fellowship with Jesus.

The same thing is confirmed in 2 Corinthians 5:6–9, only it’s even clearer. He says,

We are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . . . We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

I don’t know how it could be much clearer than to say that “away from the body” is “at home with the Lord.” That’s our immediate hope — not any intervening purgatory between being away from the body and being at home with the Lord. To be away from the body is to be at home with the Lord, which, Paul says, is far better.

Changed in a Moment
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​

Let me go back and suggest why what C.S. Lewis imagined happening between the dirty saint and God at the pearly gates (this discussion they had) would, in fact, never happen.

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, God says to us, just like Jesus said to the leper, ‘Be clean.’”

Now, you recall that Lewis pictures God saying, “It’s true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy.” Now, if that were to happen, the saint surely would indeed say, “Yes, Lord, nothing impure shall enter your presence. Would you now then, in great mercy, complete the purchase of your Son — namely, my cleansing — and simply say the word ‘Be clean’ the way your Son did?”

When the apostle Paul pictured the resurrection of all the imperfect saints in 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, he said, “Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

Now, that instantaneous change of our bodies at the resurrection is a better, more biblical picture of what happens to the imperfect soul at death. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, God says to us, just like Jesus said to the leper in Luke 5:13, “Be clean.” And immediately his leprosy left him. That will happen physically at the resurrection, and for those who die before the resurrection, it happens spiritually at death.

 

[Blues Man]

I say humans don't do well without God... We look around and we see wht the Godless do:

they sexualize our most precious "thing" our children!!!!!

People who know Christ do NOT do that! They love children as they are-- save for their tendency toward lawlessness and selfishness, but they are those things out of ignorance/innocence... whereas adults are w/o excuse

You religious people do like your broad brushes.

Are all those priests and clergy from Christian religions who have molested countless children all "godless"? What about the leaders of those religions actively protecting those child molesters? Are they all "godless" too?

 

[nomadic5]

Ninja

is wasting his time if he thinks he can convert ME from Catholicism.. Some Protestant points make sense...

especially if they think Cahtolics really do what they claim like , for example: worship Mary. I just ran into some poster at a Catholic site who gives Catholics a bad name, said something like Mary, save me! Um... what??? Mary is not our savior... maybe he wasn't talking about Salvation, but just salvation from some bad circumstance... but anyhow... I pray to her here and there but would never say those words. THAT is why Catholics get this bad name and then people think all Catholics are like that... NOT TRUE.

But anyhow...

No one can refute EXPERIENCES -- (esp ones the person has never had, namely MINE

which are

The Cahtolic Church is what made me a Christian
The Catholic Church is what brought me to a closeness to Christ I never knew was possible
gave me the Real Presence (only Catholics get that one and not even all of them)

and I could go on and on...

So I am thankful and indebted to the Cahtolic Church... (& for the 1000th time here, that is NOT the Vatican, which essentially kicked out the True Catholics in 1958)

Christ founded ONE Church on Earth and that is it... the RCC

 

[nomadic5]

I tend to believe at this point that since Jesus said

No one can come to the Father except through Me

you have to go through Christ's Church (which IS Jesus... as per the Saints) to get to the Father

I've had a personal revelation from the Lord RE this... (not that anyone here would believe such so I'll just stop here)

 

[nomadic5]

I thought Protestants wanted answers about Purgatory.

Oh... they just wanted to bash a Catholic...

Credible evidence the C may be right, the P wrong

FORGET IT!

 

[buttercup]

It's always funny* to me when someone posts a thread that was meant to be a discussion between believers (Catholics and non-Catholics)... and like clockwork, the nonbelievers come along to try to change the topic to the existence of God.

If I had a nickel for every time that has happened in this section, I'd be a guhzillionaire by now.

*funny but also annoying. just start a new thread, folks, stop trying to hijack every single thread in this section.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I tend to believe at this point that since Jesus said

No one can come to the Father except through Me

you have to go through Christ's Church (which IS Jesus... as per the Saints) to get to the Father

Well, that's not what He said.

You're stuck in the same rut. You only see "the church" as an organization that has your personal approval.

"The Church" is the Body of Believers in whom is the Holy Spirit

Taking up a seat in your preferred organization doesn't make you Christian.

 

[nomadic5]

It's always funny* to me when someone posts a thread that was meant to be a discussion between believers (Catholics and non-Catholics)... and like clockwork, the nonbelievers come along to try to change the topic to the existence of God.

If I had a nickel for every time that has happened in this section, I'd be a guhzillionaire by now.

*funny but also annoying. just start a new thread, folks, stop trying to hijack every single thread in this section.

you must be referring to blues man?

yeh, and others do that... I guess they're still trying to figure out whether God exists and find those who believe in Him already highly annoying..

OK, that works for me because I like annoying them

LOL