Sandy Koufax vs. Pedro Martinez.

[Synthaholic]

except Nolan Ryan.....

Nolan is the all-time strikeout leader, but he's also the all-time walks leader.

Nolan won over 300 games, but he also lost just under 300 games.

 

[DGS49]

There is no conclusion to this argument. The only thing that is clear is that it is more difficult today to produce impressive OFFENSIVE numbers, because you are always facing a pitcher who is fresh, and usually a specialist at what he's doing.

Parenthetically, I wonder if Pedro was using the same kind of sticky substance on his fingers that G. Cole got caught with a few years back. He used to talk about his fingers burning when he executed his breaking balls. Something to think about.

 

[odanny]

I got to meet him at a restaurant/bar my band was playing in. He was sitting at the bar, in town scouting players. Nice as hell but looked really tired.

Phil Neikro always looked liked that. I remember him looking so old as a pitcher.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Nolan is the all-time strikeout leader, but he's also the all-time walks leader.

Nolan won over 300 games, but he also lost just under 300 games.

mcrib said hard throwers blow out their arms....i said except Ryan.....and he also lost a hell of a lot of 1 run games when he was with the angels.....i was at many of them....

 

[Jarlaxle]

Randy Johnson is the best lefty ever, razor-thin over Warren Spahn. Steve Carlton is third.

You can make a decent case for Tom Glavine.

Nolan is the all-time strikeout leader, but he's also the all-time walks leader.

Nolan won over 300 games, but he also lost just under 300 games.

And Cy Young is the all-time leader in losses. Nolan Ryan pitched for some AWFUL teams-he led the league in ERA with a losing record in 1987 (8-16, for an AWFUL Astros team that couldn't score and led the NL in errors).

 

[Papageorgio]

I got to meet him at a restaurant/bar my band was playing in. He was sitting at the bar, in town scouting players. Nice as hell but looked really tired. Also, similar situation, different bar, Dave Stewart. He was very forthcoming, telling me that Mark McGwire was a criminally under-rated defensive first baseman, which surprised me. He also had nothing good to say about Jose Canseco.

I sat with McGwire at an airport and he was extremely nice and very intelligent, overall nice guy, I met Canseco at a card show, I was surprised he could fit his head in the room.

 

[Harry Dresden]

You can make a decent case for Tom Glavine.



And Cy Young is the all-time leader in losses. Nolan Ryan pitched for some AWFUL teams-he led the league in ERA with a losing record in 1987 (8-16, for an AWFUL Astros team that couldn't score and led the NL in errors).

and besides his 7 no hitters he had 12 1 hitters tied for first with feller...18 2 hitters tied with walter johnson....and he lost a lot of 1 run games.....including some of those 2 hitters....

 

[leftwinger]

and besides his 7 no hitters he had 12 1 hitters tied for first with feller...18 2 hitters tied with walter johnson....and he lost a lot of 1 run games.....including some of those 2 hitters....

Will Clarks' first AB (as a Giant) came off Nolan Ryan in HOU, I am almost certain (without looking it up). He hit an HR to Right center. I saw it on Giants Bay Area TV channel.

 

[multivita-man]

If Koufax hadn't retired at a VERY young age, he would've obliterated the numbers Martinez put up. For this reason I pick Koufax over Martinez. In fact, he MAY have been arguably the best left-hander ever.

Steve Carlton would like a word with you, lol.

Koufax was great though. Early to mid-60s, probably among the most dominant ever by a pitcher.

That said, they changed the rules after 68 because of another dominant pitcher named Bob Gibson, which tilted the balance of power over to offense and by the time Pedro was pitching, hitters were bigger, bulkier, and hitting the ball out of the yard at record clips.

I think Pedro in his prime is as good as any pitcher as I've ever seen. Randy Johnson was pretty effing good, too.

 

[multivita-man]

Lefthanded starters:

Randy Johnson
View attachment 764503

Warren Spahn
View attachment 764504

Steve Carlton
View attachment 764506

Sandy Koufax
View attachment 764505

Steve Carlton, IMO, may have had the best single season ever by any pitcher in any era. In other words, the best single season of all time.

In 1972, following a trade from the competitive St Louis Cardinals, he went to the lowly Philadelphia Phillies. The 1972 Phillies were probably one of the worst teams of all time, winning only 59 games if memory serves me correct. Steve Carlton had 27 of those 59 wins -- almost half the team's wins for the season. He lost 10 games.

He went 27 and 10 with a 1.98 ERA.

He had 30 complete games.

He pitched 346 innings -- 346!

310 strikeouts

On a team that didn't even win 60 games.

Unreal.

I mean if he plays on an average or above average team, like say, the 1986 Phillies, he probably wins half the games he lost. So now we're talking 32 and 5 or something like that. Just sick stats.

 

[Synthaholic]

You can make a decent case for Tom Glavine.

Oh, definitely, but not above any of the top 3 I listed. Glavine played nearly every year for the Division winner. Carlton had some really bad Phillies teams but when he pitched they won. And this is where the WAR comes in, accounting for all these things. Carlton is a 90.x WAR, Glaving is an 80.x WAR. Carlton has the better ERA (a valid stat), Glaving has the better winning % (an invalid stat).

And Cy Young is the all-time leader in losses. Nolan Ryan pitched for some AWFUL teams-he led the league in ERA with a losing record in 1987 (8-16, for an AWFUL Astros team that couldn't score and led the NL in errors).

This is why stat geeks dismiss W-L records, favoring things like WAR (which I'm not totally sold on), and they have a point. Nolan got no run support.

A pitcher like that can win the Cy Young, but should never win the MVP. No matter how good your season is, if it's not appreciably helping your team, how valuable were you? This is why I objected to Andre Dawson winning MVP in the late 1980s for the last place Cubs. Give him the Silver Slugger or something.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Oh, definitely, but not above any of the top 3 I listed. Glavine played nearly every year for the Division winner. Carlton had some really bad Phillies teams but when he pitched they won. And this is where the WAR comes in, accounting for all these things. Carlton is a 90.x WAR, Glaving is an 80.x WAR. Carlton has the better ERA (a valid stat), Glaving has the better winning % (an invalid stat).



This is why stat geeks dismiss W-L records, favoring things like WAR (which I'm not totally sold on), and they have a point. Nolan got no run support.

A pitcher like that can win the Cy Young, but should never win the MVP. No matter how good your season is, if it's not appreciably helping your team, how valuable were you? This is why I objected to Andre Dawson winning MVP in the late 1980s for the last place Cubs. Give him the Silver Slugger or something.

silver slugger is awarded to the best at his position that year....Dawson won that in his MVP year as well........

 

[Synthaholic]

Glaving is an 80.x WAR. Carlton has the better ERA (a valid stat), Glaving has the better winning % (an invalid stat).

Off-topic, but why the fuck would my Samsung Galaxy tablet autocorrect from Glavine to Glaving, especially after I had just finished typing Glavine earlier in the paragraph?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Steve Carlton would like a word with you, lol.

Koufax was great though. Early to mid-60s, probably among the most dominant ever by a pitcher.

That said, they changed the rules after 68 because of another dominant pitcher named Bob Gibson, which tilted the balance of power over to offense and by the time Pedro was pitching, hitters were bigger, bulkier, and hitting the ball out of the yard at record clips.

I think Pedro in his prime is as good as any pitcher as I've ever seen. Randy Johnson was pretty effing good, too.

You can make a good case that Pedro in 1999 and 2000 was the most dominant seasons a pitcher had. Ever. As in: you could DOUBLE his ERA and he'd still lead the league. He was under 2 one year, just over the other. It was more impressive than even Gibson in 68, because Pedro did it in a hitters park, in the toughest division in baseball, at the height of the steroid era.

 

[odanny]

Will Clarks' first AB (as a Giant) came off Nolan Ryan in HOU, I am almost certain (without looking it up). He hit an HR to Right center. I saw it on Giants Bay Area TV channel.

If Nolan Ryan was a 1st baseman, he'd be Will Clark. Both of them were HOF's, looked alike, and were tough as nails.

 

[Synthaholic]

If Nolan Ryan was a 1st baseman, he'd be Will Clark. Both of them were HOF's, looked alike, and were tough as nails.

Will Clark is one of those overlooked players from the 80s and 90s. Like Keith Hernandez with his exceptional glove. Like Mark Grace. Such great players, almost forgotten these days.

Grace collected the most hits (1,754) and doubles (364) of any player in the 1990s. Grace and Pete Rose are the only Major League Baseball players to lead a decade in hits and not be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Grace also had the most sacrifice flies in the 1990s with 73.

 

[odanny]

So true about Hernandez, everyone remembers him as a Met but he had stellar seasons with Cardinals, led them to a title and then traded him because of his cocaine use, which started in 1980. He played for St. Louis from 74-83 and helped lead them to a title in 82. That Mets team of Strawberry, Hernandez, Gooden, Dykstra, you know there was blow near the training room somewhere.

Grace married a girl from a town next door, so I've heard about him for years, even though I'm no Cub fan. They got divorced and she then married Ray Liotta. I didn't realize he had the most hits and doubles in the 90's, that's interesting. I under appreciated him for sure.