Russian invasion of Ukraine showed all the problems of the democratic countries’ “unity”

[task0778]

No I don't think that is how it is. Of course Europe wants off fossil fuels and sees this as an invitation to do that asap not least because once they are working they are the cheaper. There's plenty of threads on Nord Stream.

What the Europeans essentially did was to make themselves dependent on Russian natural gas, which emboldened Putin to do what he did. It has already been demonstrated that wind, solar, and other renewable energy sources cannot provide enough power to EU some countries. I'm not talking about Nordstream at all, I'm talking about the EU's political stupidity in divorcing themselves from nuclear power with no alternatives. Their energy bills are going much higher already and will continue to be even more outrageous this winter, and I suspect there will be some shortages and rationing, similar to what we did in Texas back in 2020.

 

[surada]

I think Gog and Magog were from Ukraine.

Sbiker

I wasn't joking. Gog and Magog were Scythians from the Ukraine.

 

[alexa]

1. Russia is building gas pipelines to China as fast as they can. The EU needs to plan accordingly.
2. The EU needs to provide for its own energy needs ASAP. Re-start nuke plants ASAP, and import gas as fast as possible. Biden could help is he unleashed US gas production.
3. The EU can't let Putin win in Ukraine. As it stands now Putin lost big since Sweden and Finland will soon be NATO members. That is a strategic loss for Putin. Also, the war in Ukraine is bleeding Putin's army dry. Death by a thousand cuts.

It will be an interesting winter.
Can the EU find enough energy to keep the lights on without Russia's gas?
Trump was right. The EU never should have let Putin put an energy knife to their throat.

Your very first post! Nice work!
Just ignore replies with no substance, there are a lot of idiots posting quips here.

Don't know if this is right but I was hearing that the US is selling gas to Germany at 7 times what they paid Russia. Small wonder that the AfD is gaining ground with the hope of mending relations with Russia and saving Germany's economy.

 

[alexa]

What the Europeans essentially did was to make themselves dependent on Russian natural gas, which emboldened Putin to do what he did. It has already been demonstrated that wind, solar, and other renewable energy sources cannot provide enough power to EU some countries. I'm not talking about Nordstream at all, I'm talking about the EU's political stupidity in divorcing themselves from nuclear power with no alternatives. Their energy bills are going much higher already and will continue to be even more outrageous this winter, and I suspect there will be some shortages and rationing, similar to what we did in Texas back in 2020.

They can produce enough green power. They just haven't yet. Germany had been dependent on Russia Gas for 50 years! As far as bills are concerned as I wrote in a post just before I saw this, Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas. There is a strong voice in Germany to end sanctions against Russia and get Nord Stream 2 sorted. The US completely destroyed Nord stream 1 but they only got half of 2 which apparently makes it reparable.

 

[zaangalewa]

View attachment 675514
Countries which are reported to pay for natural gas in rubles

This map shows which countries agreed (green) and refused (red) to pay for natural gas in rubles.

Germany never agreed to pay for Russian natural gas in Rubel. As far as I know payed Germany always only in Euro.

 

[zaangalewa]

They can produce enough green power. They just haven't yet. Germany had been dependent on Russia Gas for 50 years! As far as bills are concerned as I wrote in a post just before I saw this, Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas. There is a strong voice in Germany to end sanctions against Russia and get Nord Stream 2 sorted. The US completely destroyed Nord stream 1 but they only got half of 2 which apparently makes it reparable.

That's wrong. Germany needs natural gas - but we do not like to make business with Russia any longer. And no one knows who destroyed the pipelines Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2.

 

[zaangalewa]

... Trump was right. ...

When he said "I am an idiot!"

 

[zaangalewa]

... Germany is not an exception. Now their government is catching critics not only from EU/NATO partners

The Polish government never said anything else then only nonsense about Germany. They need Germany for to be responsible for everything what's going wrong in Poland.

but from opposition parties inside the country.

It's the duty of the opposition parties in Germany to criticize the government of Germany. We are a parlamentarian democracy.

It’s truly disappointing for German chancellor Olaf Scholz,

Ahm ... In the moment I ask myselve what could mean "to be dissapointed" for a Hamburger like him.

whose approval rating sinks lower and lower every month.

That's a normal process now. The next elections will be in 2025.

... Moreover, Switzerland also didn’t allow the re-export of Swiss war material to Ukraine. Following their policy of military neutrality it was declared that Bern rejected Berlin’s request to send around 12400 rounds of 35-millimetre Swiss ammunition ...

The neutrality of Switzerland is well known since long centuries when Switzerland left the Holy Empire and Italy, France and Germany agreed with Switzerland to do so. This was about 700-800 years ago. The problem Germany and Switzerland had was German ammunition which had been produced from a German company in Switzerland. No idea whether this problem was solved or not solved - it's not very important.

 

[zaangalewa]

I hope NATO approves Ukraine into NATO. ...

That's impossible. The Ukraine is in war and the NATO is a defense alliance where all nations have to take care that no war will happen. What you say means: "I like to start a nuclear third world war with hundreds of millions (or billions) of dead people in a totally destroyed world."

 

[zaangalewa]

... Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas. There is a strong voice in Germany to end sanctions against Russia ...

Russia delivers no gas to Germany since a longer time now so why to pay what? And Germany not thinks about to end any sanctions against Russia before Russia will leave the Ukraine and go back to Russia. It's not tolerable that the biggest country of the world and the biggest nuclear power of the world attacks a little neighbor on not any real reason to have to do so. The last 70 rockets Russia had sent into the Ukraine are by the way in many cases war crimes: terror attacks against the civil population of the Ukraine.

 

[zaangalewa]

What the Europeans essentially did was to make themselves dependent on Russian natural gas, which emboldened Putin to do what he did. ...

What we essentially did do was to trust in Russia and the European family. This is called "peace politics". And trust is trust - betrayed trust hurts. Putin forever changed the world history with his attack against the Ukraine. No one is able to know what will happen now and what will be the result of this nonsense in the end. But one thing is totally clear to me: The absurde dreams of the war birds in the USA, Russia and China will for sure not come true - in best case they will become nightmares which we all will have to suffer for decades and/or centuries. There is no peace politics except peace politics. What seems to be dead must live.

 

[task0778]

They can produce enough green power. They just haven't yet. Germany had been dependent on Russia Gas for 50 years! As far as bills are concerned as I wrote in a post just before I saw this, Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas. There is a strong voice in Germany to end sanctions against Russia and get Nord Stream 2 sorted. The US completely destroyed Nord stream 1 but they only got half of 2 which apparently makes it reparable.

"They can produce enough green power." I do not believe that is true.

"Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas." I doubt that too. Got a link? Maybe they should've kept their nuclear power plants operational.

"The US completely destroyed Nord stream 1 but they only got half of 2 which apparently makes it reparable." I have not seen any proof that the US gov't was responsible for the damage to the Nordstream pipelines. Such an operation must have required WH concurrence, along with a lot of people down the chain of command. And nobody leaked anything about it? Hard to believe.

 

[alexa]

Russia delivers no gas to Germany since a longer time now so why to pay what? And Germany not thinks about to end any sanctions against Russia before Russia will leave the Ukraine and go back to Russia.

Not sure what you are saying here. I suspect people have different ideas in Germany not just one, Unless you look at the history it is not possible to know what is going on. Yes, Putin should not have invaded Ukraine. However we have 8 years of fighting and when it appears that Zelensky has done what he was elected to do and got a peace treaty with Russia it is apparently dropped by the Ukraine side. Belief is it was the UK who told Ukraine if they agreed to peace now it would be the end of support from Nato.

It's not tolerable that the biggest country of the world and the biggest nuclear power of the world attacks a little neighbor on not any real reason to have to do so.

Well again as above. word has it that the US/Nato is using Ukraine to weaken Russia not for Ukraine's good. The East of Ukraine wanted to align stronger with Russia and the West of Ukraine wanted to align with the EU. We never hear about the people of East Ukraine. As far as the west in concerned they do not exist. When Yanukovych looked at what the EU was offering it was austerity. Russia however had offered them $15 billion in loans and cheaper gas and he decided to go with that. This resulted in him being ousted and fleeing to Russia and a new parliament was sworn in where there is a telephone conversation saying who the US wanted where in the Ukraine Parliament which is what happened. This Parlaiment then ruled that Russian speaking was illegal. This really got the Russian speakers in the East upset and so they said it was a mistake and stopped it....but the damage was really done. In reality in Ukraine now these Russian speakers are not given the same rights as those in the West. This is a massive internal problem and needs an internal solution but instead the Azov battalion and others have been fighting these people since 2014 and I heard had upped the fighting before Putin came in. - what I am saying is that although a big mistake that is the reason some people give for Russia coming in. It was an old war.

The last 70 rockets Russia had sent into the Ukraine are by the way in many cases war crimes: terror attacks against the civil population of the Ukraine.

Very likely were just as we hear all the time about the torturing and killing of Ukranian citizens who are Russian speaking.

So that is the local issue. The other reason, the reason for the war is because Russia does not want NATO countries surrounding it. The agreement not to move nato further than Germany was on trust. The US has not abided by it. Russia has asked them again and again to do so. I saw a paper were Lavrov was doing it in 2008. Now that is what the war is about. The US desire to surround Russia with Nato countries and Russia's desire for it not to happen Ukraine and the Ukranian people are just being used for this end, Their lives do not matter to the US. Just destroying Russia does.

 

[alexa]

"They can produce enough green power." I do not believe that is true.

It is. I don't understand why you find that so hard to believe.

"Germany is apparently paying 7 times what it paid Russia to the United States for Gas." I doubt that too. Got a link? Maybe they should've kept their nuclear power plants operational.

No, I have been listening to things online. That was mentioned not as a complaint just as a fact. If it is true that is not good.

"The US completely destroyed Nord stream 1 but they only got half of 2 which apparently makes it reparable." I have not seen any proof that the US gov't was responsible for the damage to the Nordstream pipelines. Such an operation must have required WH concurrence, along with a lot of people down the chain of command. And nobody leaked anything about it? Hard to believe.

No there is no proof as yet that it was the US but their boats and stuff were seen at the site at the time and as you will know Biden claimed he would do it and Blinken said it was a great opportunity for the US to take over selling gas to Europe. Although there is as yet only circumstantial proof as I have listed above, it is massive.

 

[task0778]

If Germany can produce enough green power then why have they not done so? Why then would they pay 7 times what they were paying to Russia for LNG? I see no logic here. I do not know what price Germany is paying to the US for LNG these days, but no doubt it is significantly more than they were paying long before the Nordstream lines were damaged. My understanding is that green energy has been tried in Germany and has failed to be sufficient to replace the other sources of energy. Apparently they put all their energy needs into one basket as it were, which was incredibly stupid to leave themselves in the current bind they find themselves in. Thus:

• Germany announced plans Monday to spend $93 billion to ease surging gas prices.
• Officials are worried winter months will be tight even as energy reserves are filling up.
• The plan would be paid for by a larger 200-billion-euro spending package that was announced last month.

Germany announced Monday plans to spend upwards of 96 billion euro ($93 billion) to aid consumers struggling with surging energy costs.

The spending is part of a larger 200-billion-euro package put forth by Chancellor Olaf Scholz in September, and would provide consumers with a one-time payment equivalent to one month of gas bill payments for small and medium-sized households, according to a report from Reuters.

While benchmark European natural gas prices have come down sharply from the record high of 349 euros per megawatt-hour, they remain about four times the year-ago level at about 150 per megawatt-hour.

Germany remains on edge ahead of an energy crunch this winter despite storage facilities being well stocked. Experts estimate that Germany has to slash consumption in the country by one-fifth to get through the winter into next year to avoid rationing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/germany-is-pushing-a-2493-billion-spending-plan-to-ease-consumer-gas-prices-as-europe-heads-toward-winter-with-no-end-to-energy-crunch-in-sight/

They wouldn't be doing this is they had enough green energy.



As far as the Nordstream damage is concerned, it may be that the US was responsible, but using whatever Biden or Blinken have said is hardly evidence of that. Biden is a loudmouthed braggart, and whatever he says or said can IMHO be discounted as bullshit/braggadocio. In a lot of ways like Trump, actually. While I do believe that Joe Biden is a fucking idiot, I just can't believe he would have the balls to actually sabotage those pipelines. Putin would, I think. But not Biden.

 

[xyz]

What the Europeans essentially did was to make themselves dependent on Russian natural gas, which emboldened Putin to do what he did. It has already been demonstrated that wind, solar, and other renewable energy sources cannot provide enough power to EU some countries. I'm not talking about Nordstream at all, I'm talking about the EU's political stupidity in divorcing themselves from nuclear power with no alternatives. Their energy bills are going much higher already and will continue to be even more outrageous this winter, and I suspect there will be some shortages and rationing, similar to what we did in Texas back in 2020.

I think the problem is that they didn't switch to more renewable sources earlier. Not saying that they could provide 100% power to all regions or anything like that. Or that the switch could be made relative fast.

However, I never posted about this but thought about it even before the current situation. Nuclear power is not a good idea for security reasons, especially during wartime.

 

[Sbiker]

Sbiker

I wasn't joking. Gog and Magog were Scythians from the Ukraine.

There wasn't Ukraine at this time, only like territory.
Even word "ukraine" fixed only in medieval sources. Ukraine in current version (as nazi and terrorist state) was projected by Austria Emprire in 19th century against Russian Empire...

 

[surada]

There wasn't Ukraine at this time, only like territory.
Even word "ukraine" fixed only in medieval sources. Ukraine in current version (as nazi and terrorist state) was projected by Austria Emprire in 19th century against Russian Empire...

That's correct. Gog and Mag were in the area now known as Ukraine. They invaded Syria -Palestine 500 years before Christ.

 

[zaangalewa]

Not sure what you are saying here.

All Russian soldiers have to leave the Ukraine - specially they have also to leave the regions of the Urkraine which Russia is annexing.

I suspect people have different ideas in Germany not just one,

Not really. All German companies left Russia and no one likes to go back. The Russian behavior motivates no one to do business with Russia. We will find other ways.

Unless you look at the history it is not possible to know what is going on. Yes, Putin should not have invaded Ukraine.

Yes. He did do political suicide.

However we have 8 years of fighting

Beause Russia had sent comabatants into this borderland of the borderland, the Ukraine.

and when it appears that Zelensky has done what he was elected to do and got a peace treaty with Russia it is apparently dropped by the Ukraine side. Belief is it was the UK who told Ukraine if they agreed to peace now it would be the end of support from Nato.

Eh? ... No idea who was babbeling what within the UK in this context. On a long day people say a lot of things.

Well again as above. word has it that the US/Nato is using Ukraine to weaken Russia not for Ukraine's good.

The NATO is a mighty defense alliance. The moment Russia will attack the NATO Russia will be lost.

The East of Ukraine wanted to align stronger with Russia and the West of Ukraine wanted to align with the EU.

An Ukrainian problem. Not a problem of Russia and not a problem of the EU. The Ukrainians made clear that they like to become a member of the EU and made a membership request.

We never hear about the people of East Ukraine. As far as the west in concerned they do not exist.

What's nonsense.

When Yanukovych looked at what the EU was offering it was austerity.

Yanukovitch established in the Ukraine an authoritarian kleptocracy and the European Union has not the order to waste money.

Russia however had offered them $15 billion in loans and cheaper gas and he decided to go with that ...

Looks like the three tyrants Putin, Lukashenko and Yanukovitch decided to steal not only in their countries - they decided to steal their whole countries.

 

[alexa]

If Germany can produce enough green power then why have they not done so?

That is something the EU was asking itself when this war began. Why has the UK which was advanced in what it had done pretty much stop giving grants for green energy. It might be because those in Government find money in their hands from the fossil fuel people. It just needs the energy to be put in. It needs work which for a while produces nothing but I was semi watching something last night where the guy was talking about the previous felt need by many for nuclear and illustrating, if I had been paying attention, why nuclear is no longer needed at all.

Why then would they pay 7 times what they were paying to Russia for LNG? I see no logic here. I do not know what price Germany is paying to the US for LNG these days, but no doubt it is significantly more than they were paying long before the Nordstream lines were damaged. My understanding is that green energy has been tried in Germany and has failed to be sufficient to replace the other sources of energy. Apparently they put all their energy needs into one basket as it were, which was incredibly stupid to leave themselves in the current bind they find themselves in. Thus:

• Germany announced plans Monday to spend $93 billion to ease surging gas prices.
• Officials are worried winter months will be tight even as energy reserves are filling up.
• The plan would be paid for by a larger 200-billion-euro spending package that was announced last month.

Germany announced Monday plans to spend upwards of 96 billion euro ($93 billion) to aid consumers struggling with surging energy costs.

The spending is part of a larger 200-billion-euro package put forth by Chancellor Olaf Scholz in September, and would provide consumers with a one-time payment equivalent to one month of gas bill payments for small and medium-sized households, according to a report from Reuters.

While benchmark European natural gas prices have come down sharply from the record high of 349 euros per megawatt-hour, they remain about four times the year-ago level at about 150 per megawatt-hour.

Germany remains on edge ahead of an energy crunch this winter despite storage facilities being well stocked. Experts estimate that Germany has to slash consumption in the country by one-fifth to get through the winter into next year to avoid rationing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/germany-is-pushing-a-2493-billion-spending-plan-to-ease-consumer-gas-prices-as-europe-heads-toward-winter-with-no-end-to-energy-crunch-in-sight/

They wouldn't be doing this is they had enough green energy.

They do not have enough but they are perfectly capable of making it so. That will resuolt in much cheaper energy and a great help to the survival of the world.

As far as the Nordstream damage is concerned, it may be that the US was responsible, but using whatever Biden or Blinken have said is hardly evidence of that. Biden is a loudmouthed braggart, and whatever he says or said can IMHO be discounted as bullshit/braggadocio. In a lot of ways like Trump, actually. While I do believe that Joe Biden is a fucking idiot, I just can't believe he would have the balls to actually sabotage those pipelines. Putin would, I think. But not Biden.[/wuote]

Oh come on. The US often does that sort of thing. He knew he had promised the US would. It may not be him but with the two pipes both available Europe was in a position where they could have moved to end being a part of the ongoing war with Russia and get Russia gas pretty much immediately. The US was the only country I can see who had anything of substance to gain from doing it. Some people are now linking it to the rail 'sabotage' and saying it was Putin. I am suspicious.