Russia: Too many self appointed experts

[toomuchtime_]

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Obama never cared, I agree. US Syrian policy, put in play by Bush and carried out by Obama, led to the probability of hostilities with Russia. There was a concerted effort to put pressure on Russia to try and limit Russia's response to the Syrian situation. I think Trump is going to have to change course on Syria and I'm not sure he can do it.

Russia's participation in Syria is costly and unpopular so I think Trump will easily be able to reach a deal with Putin to support Russia keeping its naval base in return to dropping its support of Assad and to help us stabilize Syria afterwards. More difficult will be trying to find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO states on its border.

 

[Iceweasel]

As Liberals and Conservatives jockey for political advantage over Russia's possible involvement in the election of 2016, I would point out to both sides, there is a mountain of classified and top secret information on this subject that most voters will never see. With this in mind I would ask the "self appointed experts" here on both sides of the partisan fence to STFU on this subject for awhile. Investigations and intelligence gathering is a slow process, and no one here has all the facts. I have no idea if Russia was hacking American computers, and neither do any of you, so maybe we should let the intelligence community do their jobs...that's why we pay them.

Thanks for your expert opinion. Asking for evidence isn't really being an expert so I can't agree it's a both sides are doing it scenario. "The intelligence community" is xontrolled by a leftist government that has politicized everything and not gulping down everything your government officials tell you is actually a quite healthy state to be in. Try it sometime! Oh, and STFU backatcha.

I hope that the Americans can just wait until we have all of the information

I hate those commentators on TV who are just getting face time on the news, and they don't know shit yet.
.

The left hasn't waited so that ship has sailed. But which email revelation do the taking heads say was the worse one? I don't watch so haven't heard.

 

[Tehon]

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Obama never cared, I agree. US Syrian policy, put in play by Bush and carried out by Obama, led to the probability of hostilities with Russia. There was a concerted effort to put pressure on Russia to try and limit Russia's response to the Syrian situation. I think Trump is going to have to change course on Syria and I'm not sure he can do it.

Russia's participation in Syria is costly and unpopular so I think Trump will easily be able to reach a deal with Putin to support Russia keeping its naval base in return to dropping its support of Assad and to help us stabilize Syria afterwards. More difficult will be trying to find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO states on its border.

Russia and the US are not the only actors involved in the Syrian war is the point. How are you going to placate the Saudis and dare I say it, the Israelis?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Right. Putin is content to follow our lead. He know he can't beat us, so he has decided to join us. Why wouldn't he? Trump obviously recognizes this acquiescence on Putin's part and he's going to negotiate us into a better position. I am eager to see what a new global partnership with Russia looks like.

I'm no fan of Trump. I would think his administration will deal with Russia much the way Obama's did. Make overtures of conciliation to Russia and then act in direct opposition to those overtures. I am keenly interested to see it play out as well.

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Cool! What do we want?

We want Russia's cooperation in getting Assad to leave Syria and to stabilize the the nation after he has left. We want to find some sort of agreement that will satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO in order to end the fighting in eastern Europe. Additionally, we want Russian cooperation in preventing Iran from continuing to spread the Sunni - Shia war across the ME.

The question is, who is we? Are you a policy maker? What makes you think those who helped spread the salafist movement want to now end it? Do you think it sprang up by accident?

"We" means the US, and the US now means Donald Trump, the man who campaigned against the leaderships of both parties and won. He clearly does not believe he is bound by the mistakes of the past.

 

[toomuchtime_]

As Liberals and Conservatives jockey for political advantage over Russia's possible involvement in the election of 2016, I would point out to both sides, there is a mountain of classified and top secret information on this subject that most voters will never see. With this in mind I would ask the "self appointed experts" here on both sides of the partisan fence to STFU on this subject for awhile. Investigations and intelligence gathering is a slow process, and no one here has all the facts. I have no idea if Russia was hacking American computers, and neither do any of you, so maybe we should let the intelligence community do their jobs...that's why we pay them.

Thanks for your expert opinion. Asking for evidence isn't really being an expert so I can't agree it's a both sides are doing it scenario. "The intelligence community" is xontrolled by a leftist government that has politicized everything and not gulping down everything your government officials tell you is actually a quite healthy state to be in. Try it sometime! Oh, and STFU backatcha.

I hope that the Americans can just wait until we have all of the information

I hate those commentators on TV who are just getting face time on the news, and they don't know shit yet.
.

One thing we do know for sure is that the Wikileaks emails did not influence the election, so why is Obama using them as a pretext for dragging us into a new Cold War with Russia?

 

[Boss]

. What other national leader actually wanted to see Trump win?

What fucking difference does that make? Do other countries come to us and ask who they should elect as their leaders? Do the Libtards suffer from some kind of Stockholm Syndrome or something?

I have never understood this mindset from the left that we're somehow supposed to genuflect to the east and try to emulate other countries or meet with their approval. The whole entire point of Western Civilization is that we are free-spirited individualists who march to our own drum... we are not followers. If you don't like that, and you prefer the way things are done in Europe, go fucking live in Europe!

 

[Tehon]

I'm no fan of Trump. I would think his administration will deal with Russia much the way Obama's did. Make overtures of conciliation to Russia and then act in direct opposition to those overtures. I am keenly interested to see it play out as well.

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Cool! What do we want?

We want Russia's cooperation in getting Assad to leave Syria and to stabilize the the nation after he has left. We want to find some sort of agreement that will satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO in order to end the fighting in eastern Europe. Additionally, we want Russian cooperation in preventing Iran from continuing to spread the Sunni - Shia war across the ME.

The question is, who is we? Are you a policy maker? What makes you think those who helped spread the salafist movement want to now end it? Do you think it sprang up by accident?

"We" means the US, and the US now means Donald Trump, the man who campaigned against the leaderships of both parties and won. He clearly does not believe he is bound by the mistakes of the past.

We'll see.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I have no idea if Russia was hacking American computers, and neither do any of you

You don't? You better go find your turnip truck. What other national leader actually wanted to see Trump win? Did you read the JAR report? It was released three days ago.

And the only piece of information it gave us was that a few lines of code used in the hack of the DNC were consistent with some code that had previously been used in Russian hacks. It really doesn't matter if the Russians did it or some one else used that code to hack the DNC since none of the emails on Wikileaks could have conceivably influence the election. The only casualty of those emails was Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and the only people who wanted to see her go were Sanders supporters, so if you ask who gained from those emails, the answer is not Trump and not Putin but Sanders supporters, who should have been the prime suspects from the beginning.

You just keep thinkin' that.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Obama never cared, I agree. US Syrian policy, put in play by Bush and carried out by Obama, led to the probability of hostilities with Russia. There was a concerted effort to put pressure on Russia to try and limit Russia's response to the Syrian situation. I think Trump is going to have to change course on Syria and I'm not sure he can do it.

Russia's participation in Syria is costly and unpopular so I think Trump will easily be able to reach a deal with Putin to support Russia keeping its naval base in return to dropping its support of Assad and to help us stabilize Syria afterwards. More difficult will be trying to find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO states on its border.

Russia and the US are not the only actors involved in the Syrian war is the point. How are you going to placate the Saudis and dare I say it, the Israelis?

The majority of the Syrians are Sunni, so a peaceful resolution of the conflict will naturally leave them in charge and that should satisfy the Saudis. Israel's concern is about Iran and Hezbollah and with the Sunni in charge, Iran's role will be very limited and Hezbollah will be weakened.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I have no idea if Russia was hacking American computers, and neither do any of you

You don't? You better go find your turnip truck. What other national leader actually wanted to see Trump win? Did you read the JAR report? It was released three days ago.

And the only piece of information it gave us was that a few lines of code used in the hack of the DNC were consistent with some code that had previously been used in Russian hacks. It really doesn't matter if the Russians did it or some one else used that code to hack the DNC since none of the emails on Wikileaks could have conceivably influence the election. The only casualty of those emails was Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and the only people who wanted to see her go were Sanders supporters, so if you ask who gained from those emails, the answer is not Trump and not Putin but Sanders supporters, who should have been the prime suspects from the beginning.

You just keep thinkin' that.

These are the facts.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't know what the goal of that behavior is, because I admit I don't understand partisan politics.

Well, you admit you don't understand something, that's a start.

So I'll make it simple for you.

The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump win. Why do you think they did that?

 

[JoeB131]

The majority of the Syrians are Sunni, so a peaceful resolution of the conflict will naturally leave them in charge and that should satisfy the Saudis. Israel's concern is about Iran and Hezbollah and with the Sunni in charge, Iran's role will be very limited and Hezbollah will be weakened.

But that's not what's happening.

The agreement between the Russians, Turks and Iranians is to essentially partition the country into zones of influence.

The big move here is the Turks siding with the Russians and Iranians.. partially out of fear of Islamists in their own country, partially because they have a fear of the Kurdish parts of Syria joining with the Iraqi Kurdish semi - state.

 

[Tehon]

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Obama never cared, I agree. US Syrian policy, put in play by Bush and carried out by Obama, led to the probability of hostilities with Russia. There was a concerted effort to put pressure on Russia to try and limit Russia's response to the Syrian situation. I think Trump is going to have to change course on Syria and I'm not sure he can do it.

Russia's participation in Syria is costly and unpopular so I think Trump will easily be able to reach a deal with Putin to support Russia keeping its naval base in return to dropping its support of Assad and to help us stabilize Syria afterwards. More difficult will be trying to find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO states on its border.

Russia and the US are not the only actors involved in the Syrian war is the point. How are you going to placate the Saudis and dare I say it, the Israelis?

The majority of the Syrians are Sunni, so a peaceful resolution of the conflict will naturally leave them in charge and that should satisfy the Saudis. Israel's concern is about Iran and Hezbollah and with the Sunni in charge, Iran's role will be very limited and Hezbollah will be weakened.

Yeah I don't think it is that easy. Putin already offered up a power sharing scenario that would lead to Assad's exit and that was declined. Israel doesn't want a Sunni State any more than they wanted a State run by Assad. There preference is a partitioned Syria and Putin won't agree to that.

Trump is not a great negotiator, he is an egomaniac who renegotiates (stiffs) with his investors and contractors when he can't make good on his deals. Big difference.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't know what the goal of that behavior is, because I admit I don't understand partisan politics.

Well, you admit you don't understand something, that's a start.

So I'll make it simple for you.

The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump win. Why do you think they did that?

Neither one of us knows whether they also tried phishing with the GOP but were unsuccessful.

The recently-released FBI report on this points out that Russia has tried hacking multiple political organizations:

http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r578/MacCO1958/2_zpsrcdlll8a.gif~original

You'll automatically claim they didn't try to hack the GOP, because you're a hardcore partisan ideologue and are therefore dishonest.
.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The majority of the Syrians are Sunni, so a peaceful resolution of the conflict will naturally leave them in charge and that should satisfy the Saudis. Israel's concern is about Iran and Hezbollah and with the Sunni in charge, Iran's role will be very limited and Hezbollah will be weakened.

But that's not what's happening.

The agreement between the Russians, Turks and Iranians is to essentially partition the country into zones of influence.

The big move here is the Turks siding with the Russians and Iranians.. partially out of fear of Islamists in their own country, partially because they have a fear of the Kurdish parts of Syria joining with the Iraqi Kurdish semi - state.

That's because Obama has made the US a non factor in the ME, but a Russian-US agreement on how to settle the issue would benefit Turkey and Russia more than trying to police a fragmented Syria, and if Trump can find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO, that will work to everyone's advantage except for Iran.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Conciliation with Russia hasn't worked for Obama because Obama never asked the question, what does Putin want? Putin has been clear about what he wants but no one in the Obama WH seems to have heard him or cared.

Trump prides himself on being a negotiator and the first things you have to know when entering a negotiation are what exactly you want and what exactly does the other person want. Putin has been clear that he wants two things: Russia's naval base on the Mediterranean and a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. Bush41 had promised Gorbachev the buffer zone if Russia would liberate its satellite states, but Bill Clinton reneged on that promise and allowed several of these states to join NATO. Trump will have to try to reestablish the trust that existed between Bush41 and Gorbachev and which has been largely destroyed by our last three presidents in order to arrive at an arrangement that will satisfy Putin's concerns and ours.

Obama never cared, I agree. US Syrian policy, put in play by Bush and carried out by Obama, led to the probability of hostilities with Russia. There was a concerted effort to put pressure on Russia to try and limit Russia's response to the Syrian situation. I think Trump is going to have to change course on Syria and I'm not sure he can do it.

Russia's participation in Syria is costly and unpopular so I think Trump will easily be able to reach a deal with Putin to support Russia keeping its naval base in return to dropping its support of Assad and to help us stabilize Syria afterwards. More difficult will be trying to find a way to satisfy Russia's security concerns about NATO states on its border.

Russia and the US are not the only actors involved in the Syrian war is the point. How are you going to placate the Saudis and dare I say it, the Israelis?

The majority of the Syrians are Sunni, so a peaceful resolution of the conflict will naturally leave them in charge and that should satisfy the Saudis. Israel's concern is about Iran and Hezbollah and with the Sunni in charge, Iran's role will be very limited and Hezbollah will be weakened.

Yeah I don't think it is that easy. Putin already offered up a power sharing scenario that would lead to Assad's exit and that was declined. Israel doesn't want a Sunni State any more than they wanted a State run by Assad. There preference is a partitioned Syria and Putin won't agree to that.

Trump is not a great negotiator, he is an egomaniac who renegotiates (stiffs) with his investors and contractors when he can't make good on his deals. Big difference.

Israel's only interest is in keeping Iran out of the area and keeping Hezbollah from acquiring advanced weapons and Trump has been a very successful negotiator.

 

[sartre play]

What will wishful thinking get us while Putin moves the chess pieces into place?

 

[Boss]

The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump win.

Stop lying to people you piece of shit. No one "interfered" with anything other than Hillary and her cronies, stuffing ballot boxes with dead people votes and encouraging illegal immigrants to vote. The hacked emails that showed the DNC was guilty of what should be campaign fraud MAY have had an influence on SOME voters... that's the only thing the Russians MIGHT have been involved with. If that influenced voters it's the fault of the Democrap Party for being such sleazeballs.

Trump won because people are sick of you and your bullshit identity politics. They didn't want another term of Obama policy. They sure as hell didn't want that corrupt bitch anywhere near the oval office. Now that you've lost, you want to run around spreading lies about "interference" ...you're the fucking interference, asswipe... Trump needs to send your ass to Gitmo!

 

[JoeB131]

Neither one of us knows whether they also tried phishing with the GOP but were unsuccessful.

I think you miss the point. it's not what information they were able to get, it's what they did with the information they had.

They leaked and distorted information specifically to embarrass Mrs. Clinton. And the first thing Trump does is appoint a guy whose company has made shitloads of money dealing with Russia as secretary of state.

Even a dunce like you can connect the dots, Mac. But you don't want to because you think electing the racist repudiates PC.

 

[JoeB131]

Stop lying to people you piece of shit.

Hey, guy, not my fault you all conspired with our enemies to subvert an election.

rump won because people are sick of you and your bullshit identity politics. They didn't want another term of Obama policy.

Uh, guy. Hillary got more votes. Trump didn't "win" the people. He won the electoral college after the Russians did god know what.