Religion and Ethics

[Devils_Advocate]

Maybe we as a community should try to learn to agree to disagree

That's facilitated by being an inclusive culture, not a cancel one.

And who are you to decide what is canceled?

Exactly my point. Thanks.

Especially as Jack the Insane just attempted to cancel me.

No one is canceling you and it is you that want to silent anyone that you disagree with.

Isn’t it weird those opposing the idea are the same people that attack anyone they disagree with and can not have a civil conversation?

 

[Devils_Advocate]

FYI:

I am Agnostic, so let be clear I am not siding with either side but I believe there should be stricter rules in that section.

 

[Sunsettommy]

If I start a thread about my belief that the traditional teachings about heaven and hell originate from paganism, and my intent is to get "traditional christians" to defend this, AS AN ATHEIST, WHAT IS THE POINT OF YOU INSERTING YOURSELF?

Um, discussion and debate?




Oh.


Right.


My bad.

Personally I don't bother with what DA talked about because it is a waste of time. I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

 

[cnm]

Just have one, General Discussion, and view the melee?

Much better in my experience.

 

[cnm]

No one is canceling you

You had a go.

 

[cnm]

I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

Hmm. I think you're ignoring the conveniently inbuilt ineffability of YHWH.

 

[jbander]

The solution is for religious people to stop starting threads for the purpose of attacking Atheists. Then report trolling, off topic replies from non religious people in Religion only threads

Now you make yourself a poor, pathetic victim.

Can you link to threads where we "attack" you? How would you know toure being "attacked"?

Does a bat signal go out to inform you?
There are MANY sub forums I NEVER SEE, because I have no interest in them. How are you made aware of these "attacks"???

I like to attack commie atheists. I do it anytime I see a chance. Commie atheists is what lefties are, and they are destroying the country that I served and love. Whatever thread I see them on in whatever subforum it is, I'll gladly do whatever harm I can do them if I know they are commie atheists. They can and do treat us this way, and they are a national enemy.

There are not enough Communist, socialist or Marxist in this country to fill a thimble, the only way the idiots can make it so is if these morons define what these three are themselves. Socialism Marxism and communism already have a definition and that definitions says their definition is stupid, brain dead STUPID. You people calling everyone a commie that you don't agree with your hate, are cartoon characters.

 

[Sunsettommy]

I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

Hmm. I think you're conveniently ignoring the inbuilt ineffability of YHWH.

That doesn't really matter since there is no one way up there somewhere to associate a name with......

 

[jbander]

When atheists walk into a room, we know some stuff. For example, we don't need religion to tell us what constitutes right action. We do it because it needs to be done or we don't. That's it. Try to put us all in some type of organized group and we start twitching because we recognize it as a an attempt to use us for a political end.

Well I realized that there was no atheist moral or ethical code or commitment required and no discipline required to wake up early on Sunday to dress up and commune with the community and renew inspirational goals.. But when "we know some stuff" -- do you all AGREE on that stuff? Do you have the "right course of action" written down anywhere? That's the special fatal flaw in secular humanism which REALLY IS your scripture...

I think it would be a better exercise than than to identify thru a single course of action to mock and belittle people of faith.. Maybe you could use a forum to organize relief drives like the one in my Bible Belt community community where damn near EVERY CHURCH (and there are more of them than fast food joints) were having members load a semi or two in the parking lot that BEAT FEMA down to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina..

And to use EVERY THREAD in Religion, regardless of the topic, to PROSTELYTIZE people of faith into submission, is why that forum is a no mans land... Mind you -- I have no beef with atheists. I'm not religious anymore, but I think it shows cracks in your morals and ethics if belittling people of faith is the ONE AND ONLY thing -- you can all identify with..

And creating an Atheist Forum would set you off because it would be an attempt to "use us for a political end? Not at all. In fact, this whole Bible and Faith cancellation is ALREADY a means for a political end. It's just more of the divisive nature of Leftist politics to SEPARATE allegiances and move POLITICAL allegiance higher in the order of allegiances..

Which brings me to -=--

Some people need that religious structure. That's cool. Nothing wrong with it. These people are not movers and shakers. They can't answer for anyone else in the past or in the present. They are just people.

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

Religious people need to understand that atheism is not equal to communism. That isn't how it works. God is not going to ask you about me and what I have been up to.

From a guy who DOES BELIEVE in "Natural Law" form of deity, I'll give that Communism is NOT equal to atheism.. But atheism is a vital PREQUISITE for Marxism or Communism.. And that is germane because we now have corporate America and one of two piss poor political parties BEND ASS AND KNEE for self-acknowledged MARXIST inspired organizations. Ask the couple million Uigars locked up in Western China to pick cotton for Nike tennis shoes under abhorrent slave conditions about the existence of Higher Moral Authority than man...

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

You could have just made a pile ,instead you went for a mountain of crap.

 

[flacaltenn]

What about the religious trolling the non religious?

Is it trolling really? or an attempt to set up a debate? If the TOPIC is baiting, we shouldn't allow it. What happens later in the thread that's considered trolling is by definition not on topic. Because that's what trolls do.. Attempt to bait people off the actual discussion..

 

[flacaltenn]

If I start a thread about my belief that the traditional teachings about heaven and hell originate from paganism, and my intent is to get "traditional christians" to defend this, AS AN ATHEIST, WHAT IS THE POINT OF YOU INSERTING YOURSELF?

Um, discussion and debate?




Oh.


Right.


My bad.

Personally I don't bother with what DA talked about because it is a waste of time. I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

That's fine if it's TOPICAL.. If you go way off topic to do this -- and it's your chronic go-to -- it's not really topical discussion..

Would be like a discussion topic on back radiation in Global Warming being hijacked by someone going back to using the Authority Fallacy to cut-off discussion.. Instead of citing facts, evidence or questions that haven't been addressed by authority. How frustrating is that if it happens in EVERY discussion?

 

[flacaltenn]

When atheists walk into a room, we know some stuff. For example, we don't need religion to tell us what constitutes right action. We do it because it needs to be done or we don't. That's it. Try to put us all in some type of organized group and we start twitching because we recognize it as a an attempt to use us for a political end.

Well I realized that there was no atheist moral or ethical code or commitment required and no discipline required to wake up early on Sunday to dress up and commune with the community and renew inspirational goals.. But when "we know some stuff" -- do you all AGREE on that stuff? Do you have the "right course of action" written down anywhere? That's the special fatal flaw in secular humanism which REALLY IS your scripture...

I think it would be a better exercise than than to identify thru a single course of action to mock and belittle people of faith.. Maybe you could use a forum to organize relief drives like the one in my Bible Belt community community where damn near EVERY CHURCH (and there are more of them than fast food joints) were having members load a semi or two in the parking lot that BEAT FEMA down to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina..

And to use EVERY THREAD in Religion, regardless of the topic, to PROSTELYTIZE people of faith into submission, is why that forum is a no mans land... Mind you -- I have no beef with atheists. I'm not religious anymore, but I think it shows cracks in your morals and ethics if belittling people of faith is the ONE AND ONLY thing -- you can all identify with..

And creating an Atheist Forum would set you off because it would be an attempt to "use us for a political end? Not at all. In fact, this whole Bible and Faith cancellation is ALREADY a means for a political end. It's just more of the divisive nature of Leftist politics to SEPARATE allegiances and move POLITICAL allegiance higher in the order of allegiances..

Which brings me to -=--

Some people need that religious structure. That's cool. Nothing wrong with it. These people are not movers and shakers. They can't answer for anyone else in the past or in the present. They are just people.

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

Religious people need to understand that atheism is not equal to communism. That isn't how it works. God is not going to ask you about me and what I have been up to.

From a guy who DOES BELIEVE in "Natural Law" form of deity, I'll give that Communism is NOT equal to atheism.. But atheism is a vital PREQUISITE for Marxism or Communism.. And that is germane because we now have corporate America and one of two piss poor political parties BEND ASS AND KNEE for self-acknowledged MARXIST inspired organizations. Ask the couple million Uigars locked up in Western China to pick cotton for Nike tennis shoes under abhorrent slave conditions about the existence of Higher Moral Authority than man...

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

You could have just made a pile ,instead you went for a mountain of crap.

It's what discussion should be. Find a person that tries HARD to connect and communicate and keep up with them.. What other people think about "too much effort" is really inevitable..

It's a RARITY to find someone that cares enough about what they get OUT of "discussion" these days. And you hardly ever get anything BACK if you dont ante up.... Just saying.. Twitter aint discussion. Facebook aint discussion. Cable TV is not discussion.. Even Congressional hearings have most actors making really low effort to connect and communicate.

 

[Sunsettommy]

If I start a thread about my belief that the traditional teachings about heaven and hell originate from paganism, and my intent is to get "traditional christians" to defend this, AS AN ATHEIST, WHAT IS THE POINT OF YOU INSERTING YOURSELF?

Um, discussion and debate?




Oh.


Right.


My bad.

Personally I don't bother with what DA talked about because it is a waste of time. I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

That's fine if it's TOPICAL.. If you go way off topic to do this -- and it's your chronic go-to -- it's not really topical discussion..

Would be like a discussion topic on back radiation in Global Warming being hijacked by someone going back to using the Authority Fallacy to cut-off discussion.. Instead of citing facts, evidence or questions that haven't been addressed by authority. How frustrating is that if it happens in EVERY discussion?

Actually religion based arguments are always lacking definitive answers because they are not based on anything real or provable, they fall back on the FAITH position in the end.

While Science can be based on real numbers and understanding of numbers that are subject to testing process...., eventually generate a learning base of understanding, it is why Science is self replicating/propelling itself forward based on prior validated research that allows science research to grow onward into the future.

Religion never does that, it is static for 2,000 years living a FAITH based position, a very dry way, no growth path to live...., those endless repeating religions shows say they same FAITH based stuff over and over and over for the last few decades.

What a bore religion becomes, a simple set of lessons would have been enough by the teenage years for those who chose to be religious it isn't complicated at all, then get on with life after that.

This is one of the main reason why many people stop going to churches after a decade or two, they see and hear the same stuff over and over and over and over and over, it gets really tiring after a while to hear the same thing 500 times.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Is not going out of your way and weighing in WAY off topic on a thread in Religion by someone with an atheist bent proselytizing?

Somewhat incoherent but you tell me, Mr. Expert. I see a moderator screaming at people, often using ALL CAPS, spitting blind accusations left and right, talking down to others within a topic specifically requesting their input. Still here? Weren't you singing your swan song not too long ago where we all thanked you for your service, wished you luck and so on? You think you appear to be staying on topic here ? Not trolling? Not pointlessly diverting your own thread? My intent is never that either. Believe it or go **** yourself. Others rarely express their thoughts and selves as either of us would. That's a very good thing.

You atheists (secular humanists) have ALL THE ANSWERS dontcha? Just nothing put in writing that y'all agree on..

Listen to yourself.

Freedom From Religion Foundation

A state church watchdog & voice for freethought - atheism and agnosticism.

ffrf.org

 

[Grumblenuts]

Just have one, General Discussion, and view the melee?

Much better in my experience.

Yep. If you simply must associate Ethics with Religion -or- any Lack of religion then best smoosh it all together. One can always use the CDZ if they feel it necessary.

 

[emilynghiem]

Let's Examine the Claims of Atheists

Chem Engineer


Mar 22, 2021

• Add bookmark
• #1

Let's Examine Claims of Atheists

The Fallacy of Science vs. Religion

The atheists' frequent claim that science and religion are mutually exclusive is demonstrably false. If atheists were as "rational" and "intelligent" as they are always claiming, they would not resort to mendacity. Science pursues truth.

The list of scientists as men and women faith is long and growing.

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
” - Demon Haunted World, page 29, by Carl Sagan

“I believe in God more because of science than in spite of it.” – William Phillips, Nobel Laureate in Physics

and more in post one

=====

I am an Atheist, shall I ignore the hard nasty bashing made by a religionist?

IMO, threads like those belong in forums where bashing is authorized, aka Zone 3.

but for atheists, and assholes, (notice how I separate them), there is no place for them trolling in R&E.

Love this , atheist can't respond to religious threads. You have to be kidding.

No he was talking about TROLLING in the threads......, that is what needs to stop.

When they call anything they want trolling because you write something they don't agree with , then getting rid of them is a problem. Go on any forum, look at the definition of trolling. then do a little research how it is used and you will understand .

Already posted the definition of what Trolling is at POST 95

I am CURRENTLY Moderating three websites and have been for years, also ran several of my own forums as Administrator for years also.

I know what Trolling is.....

No, you know what the definition is , that's it. Point of fact, is it true that one person will dump a troller while another one won't. One will look at the statement being within the perimeters of the trolling rule and the other person thinks it is outside of the perimeters of the trolling rule. That is the end of this conversation.

Dear Sunsettommy
And jbander
1. The trolling definition posted did not distinguish clearly enough between people who are trying to bait people by using alarmist type language to incite where that is their ONLY function, ie they seek to abuse the format similar to people inciting riots, versus people who are genuinely expressing objection in such strong ways that they directly or indirectly end up detracting and distracting from the interaction and discussion. The way trolling was defined here leaves it open for people to ACCUSE others, based on their own reaction which is relative.
2. I tend to use trolling to mean someone isn't there to discuss or debate, but just asks loaded questions or throw out bait.
I don't think extreme emotional reaction is necessary for it to be trolling, but just the fact they want other people to talk but don't really plan to discuss or answer, that to me is trolling.
3. The problem with judging trolling based on emotional responses is those depend on the other people's reactions. Instead of fighting over whose fault it was that people reacted that way, we could agree to focus on the content and working that out, regardless of the added reactions.
I find this approach either recenters the discussion back to the topic, or at the very least, asking the poster to elaborate and engage will chase them off if they truly have no desire for real interaction. Either ignore them completely or take useable content in their post to reply in a way that redirects the thread back in track. If they keep trolling that is their problem, we don't have to jump on them and feed them more bait to troll with!

 

[Disir]

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

I pulled this out because I'm afraid that I won't have time to respond to everything before I have to leave. No this isn't a "stereotype" at all. I don't think that you understand what I mean. I'm going to clarify that for you right now.

One of the things that drives me insane is when an atheist or someone with a political bent wants Christians to be held accountable for something that is clearly beyond their control in the present or past. This includes laws, the number of Christians in prison, lone wolf folks that are shooters with lengthy manifestos on anti abortion stances because of God, serial killers that firmly believe that they are doing God's work, the vague "religious right", burning witches, and leadership decisions of both the past and present.

Stop trying to force them to accept some guilt for things that are beyond their control. They aren't movers and shakers. They are just normal, everyday people that try to do the right thing. They are no different than the rest of us.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Second-place college essay contest
Why ethics is evidence for atheism - By Daniel Munoz

 

[jbander]

When atheists walk into a room, we know some stuff. For example, we don't need religion to tell us what constitutes right action. We do it because it needs to be done or we don't. That's it. Try to put us all in some type of organized group and we start twitching because we recognize it as a an attempt to use us for a political end.

Well I realized that there was no atheist moral or ethical code or commitment required and no discipline required to wake up early on Sunday to dress up and commune with the community and renew inspirational goals.. But when "we know some stuff" -- do you all AGREE on that stuff? Do you have the "right course of action" written down anywhere? That's the special fatal flaw in secular humanism which REALLY IS your scripture...

I think it would be a better exercise than than to identify thru a single course of action to mock and belittle people of faith.. Maybe you could use a forum to organize relief drives like the one in my Bible Belt community community where damn near EVERY CHURCH (and there are more of them than fast food joints) were having members load a semi or two in the parking lot that BEAT FEMA down to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina..

And to use EVERY THREAD in Religion, regardless of the topic, to PROSTELYTIZE people of faith into submission, is why that forum is a no mans land... Mind you -- I have no beef with atheists. I'm not religious anymore, but I think it shows cracks in your morals and ethics if belittling people of faith is the ONE AND ONLY thing -- you can all identify with..

And creating an Atheist Forum would set you off because it would be an attempt to "use us for a political end? Not at all. In fact, this whole Bible and Faith cancellation is ALREADY a means for a political end. It's just more of the divisive nature of Leftist politics to SEPARATE allegiances and move POLITICAL allegiance higher in the order of allegiances..

Which brings me to -=--

Some people need that religious structure. That's cool. Nothing wrong with it. These people are not movers and shakers. They can't answer for anyone else in the past or in the present. They are just people.

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

Religious people need to understand that atheism is not equal to communism. That isn't how it works. God is not going to ask you about me and what I have been up to.

From a guy who DOES BELIEVE in "Natural Law" form of deity, I'll give that Communism is NOT equal to atheism.. But atheism is a vital PREQUISITE for Marxism or Communism.. And that is germane because we now have corporate America and one of two piss poor political parties BEND ASS AND KNEE for self-acknowledged MARXIST inspired organizations. Ask the couple million Uigars locked up in Western China to pick cotton for Nike tennis shoes under abhorrent slave conditions about the existence of Higher Moral Authority than man...

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

You could have just made a pile ,instead you went for a mountain of crap.

It's what discussion should be. Find a person that tries HARD to connect and communicate and keep up with them.. What other people think about "too much effort" is really inevitable..

It's a RARITY to find someone that cares enough about what they get OUT of "discussion" these days. And you hardly ever get anything BACK if you dont ante up.... Just saying.. Twitter aint discussion. Facebook aint discussion. Cable TV is not discussion.. Even Congressional hearings have most actors making really low effort to connect and communicate.

Point made, well said

 

[jbander]

Let's Examine the Claims of Atheists

Chem Engineer


Mar 22, 2021

• Add bookmark
• #1

Let's Examine Claims of Atheists

The Fallacy of Science vs. Religion

The atheists' frequent claim that science and religion are mutually exclusive is demonstrably false. If atheists were as "rational" and "intelligent" as they are always claiming, they would not resort to mendacity. Science pursues truth.

The list of scientists as men and women faith is long and growing.

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

“Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
” - Demon Haunted World, page 29, by Carl Sagan

“I believe in God more because of science than in spite of it.” – William Phillips, Nobel Laureate in Physics

and more in post one

=====

I am an Atheist, shall I ignore the hard nasty bashing made by a religionist?

IMO, threads like those belong in forums where bashing is authorized, aka Zone 3.

but for atheists, and assholes, (notice how I separate them), there is no place for them trolling in R&E.

Love this , atheist can't respond to religious threads. You have to be kidding.

No he was talking about TROLLING in the threads......, that is what needs to stop.

When they call anything they want trolling because you write something they don't agree with , then getting rid of them is a problem. Go on any forum, look at the definition of trolling. then do a little research how it is used and you will understand .

Already posted the definition of what Trolling is at POST 95

I am CURRENTLY Moderating three websites and have been for years, also ran several of my own forums as Administrator for years also.

I know what Trolling is.....

No, you know what the definition is , that's it. Point of fact, is it true that one person will dump a troller while another one won't. One will look at the statement being within the perimeters of the trolling rule and the other person thinks it is outside of the perimeters of the trolling rule. That is the end of this conversation.

Dear Sunsettommy
And jbander
1. The trolling definition posted did not distinguish clearly enough between people who are trying to bait people by using alarmist type language to incite where that is their ONLY function, ie they seek to abuse the format similar to people inciting riots, versus people who are genuinely expressing objection in such strong ways that they directly or indirectly end up detracting and distracting from the interaction and discussion. The way trolling was defined here leaves it open for people to ACCUSE others, based on their own reaction which is relative.
2. I tend to use trolling to mean someone isn't there to discuss or debate, but just asks loaded questions or throw out bait.
I don't think extreme emotional reaction is necessary for it to be trolling, but just the fact they want other people to talk but don't really plan to discuss or answer, that to me is trolling.
3. The problem with judging trolling based on emotional responses is those depend on the other people's reactions. Instead of fighting over whose fault it was that people reacted that way, we could agree to focus on the content and working that out, regardless of the added reactions.
I find this approach either recenters the discussion back to the topic, or at the very least, asking the poster to elaborate and engage will chase them off if they truly have no desire for real interaction. Either ignore them completely or take useable content in their post to reply in a way that redirects the thread back in track. If they keep trolling that is their problem, we don't have to jump on them and feed them more bait to troll with!

Yes