Religion and Ethics

[flacaltenn]

Actually religion based arguments are always lacking definitive answers because they are not based on anything real or provable, they fall back on the FAITH position in the end.

J dont see faith that way.. What do folks do when 2 or 3 doctors or dentists dont agree on your diagnosis? Do you go by reviews on Yelp? Spend weeks researching "alternatives and standards of care"? Most folks might. But many will end up traveling to a clinic in Mexico for a decision that "makes them comfortable".. As much as science and logic and reason rule my life -- a lot of the most important decisions are done on faith..

The scriptures are not random pronouncements. There were different explanations for disease and prevention in those days. And they WERE QUITE ACCURATE... The Kosher and Halal laws ban pork and shellfish -- both disease vectors if not prepared and harvested properly. And the restrictions on having dairy and meat at the SAME MEAL -- was a "virtue signal" about how to HUMANELY slaughter and treat your cattle..

Genesis being the beginning of mankind is pretty damn accurate in the order in which things occurred.

But the MAIN POINT is that most of world's religions covenants for ethics, morals, and conduct are pretty accurate also if you strip the laws dealing with religious adherence out of them.

I already told you how religious ASSOCIATION is a vital FABRIC of a community. I knew this as a teen, but it became blazingly apparent when i moved to the "Buckle of the Bible Belt" over a decade ago and saw it in action.. You give no credit for all the aforementioned things and just beat faith vs science thing to death..

I see that the 40 or 80 diff churches and synagogues in this area LEAVE NO MEMBER in distress. They are ALL over supporting members in bad health, having difficult marital or financial issues.. I see them caring for widows' houses and yards and pets. I see them raising funds for special needs children. And its just not MEMBERS of religious groups that are protected. It's extended family and close friends and teachers and law enforcement.

That my bud is why living here is like heaven on earth. Because they dont TURN instinctively to government as a default reflex. Because it focuses me -- a mere denier -- on the GOOD things that getting up every Sunday, giving up a prime fishing or boating and going to Church or mosque or synagogue can do.. And America would have a huge gaping hole in its heart if it were to disappear and neither science or reason or government could ever make communities that strong and resilient.. Don't be silly.. WIDEN your gaze and weigh the WHOLE issue. Not merely on torturing people to give facts and figures for the existence of God.

Religious folks are right when they say that "God's acts are right before you in daily life". Get a clue.

 

[flacaltenn]

No government program will EVER be as effective as organizing religious folks to CARE and contribute to the community.. Not even individual atheists writing checks to the Red Cross and blessing themselves for the empathy..

This applies world-wide.. I hardly know a neighbor who hasn't been to Central/South America on humanitarian mission.. GrandPappy Joe can write MUCH BIGGER checks to the narco-dictators down there and it will never have the TARGETED impact of these folks going down there and building playgrounds, setting up pop-up clinics, and putting in wells, fish farms, irrigation and whatever. If those missions were run out of Dept of State -- the trip would cost at least $200K per volunteer..

Libertarians LOVE all this happening this way.. It gives FAITH to believing in human potential to not be greedy and to be disciplined enough to TRULY care about others...

 

[flacaltenn]

Is not going out of your way and weighing in WAY off topic on a thread in Religion by someone with an atheist bent proselytizing?

Somewhat incoherent but you tell me, Mr. Expert. I see a moderator screaming at people, often using ALL CAPS, spitting blind accusations left and right, talking down to others within a topic specifically requesting their input. Still here? Weren't you singing your swan song not too long ago where we all thanked you for your service, wished you luck and so on? You think you appear to be staying on topic here ? Not trolling? Not pointlessly diverting your own thread? My intent is never that either. Believe it or go fuck yourself. Others rarely express their thoughts and selves as either of us would. That's a very good thing.

You atheists (secular humanists) have ALL THE ANSWERS dontcha? Just nothing put in writing that y'all agree on..

Listen to yourself.

Freedom From Religion Foundation - Freedom From Religion Foundation

The nonprofit Freedom From Religion Foundation works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state.

ffrf.org

The all caps is not "ALL CAPS". It is emphasis on phrasing and KEY WORDS the same way I would do it if we were sitting around talking. I've used this emphasis ever since life went virtual (even in business) because its effective and people who speak publicly train to make this work. There's a whole science behind it..

Please continue to flame me in PM or a Taunting Forum.. I'll even help you get all vented out so you're not doing this in threads...

 

[flacaltenn]

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

I pulled this out because I'm afraid that I won't have time to respond to everything before I have to leave. No this isn't a "stereotype" at all. I don't think that you understand what I mean. I'm going to clarify that for you right now.

One of the things that drives me insane is when an atheist or someone with a political bent wants Christians to be held accountable for something that is clearly beyond their control in the present or past. This includes laws, the number of Christians in prison, lone wolf folks that are shooters with lengthy manifestos on anti abortion stances because of God, serial killers that firmly believe that they are doing God's work, the vague "religious right", burning witches, and leadership decisions of both the past and present.

Stop trying to force them to accept some guilt for things that are beyond their control. They aren't movers and shakers. They are just normal, everyday people that try to do the right thing. They are no different than the rest of us.

I apologize for getting that all wrong. That's why long form discussion can head off so much tension from being misunderstood.. Once I get wound - up, the safety latch is off...

 

[Sunsettommy]

FlaCalTenn writes:

" J dont see faith that way.. What do folks do when 2 or 3 doctors or dentists dont agree on your diagnosis? Do you go by reviews on Yelp? Spend weeks researching "alternatives and standards of care"? Most folks might. But many will end up traveling to a clinic in Mexico for a decision that "makes them comfortable".. As much as science and logic and reason rule my life -- a lot of the most important decisions are done on faith.. "

I go by their REPUTATION and they have the legal documents that states he is a lawfully educated accredited Dentist in the state. No second opinion is ever necessary for me, I just weight what my dentist suggest and go with it. It is a very well established profession.

Faith based decisions never enters my thoughts on medical decisions, since I already know the person before I CHOSE that person to be my medical practitioner, the science based information gathering way always works for me.

I don't make guesses as the basis for making a decision.

======

You write:

"The scriptures are not random pronouncements. There were different explanations for disease and prevention in those days. And they WERE QUITE ACCURATE... The Kosher and Halal laws ban pork and shellfish -- both disease vectors if not prepared and harvested properly. And the restrictions on having dairy and meat at the SAME MEAL -- was a "virtue signal" about how to HUMANELY slaughter and treat your cattle.."

None here shows evidence that god exist, it shows that smart people have figured it out. People even further back in time 3,500 years ago manage to build Pyramids too, because there are smart people then who can design them.

There are many people living today, despite having an education and a lots of reference books and computers to use can't even begin to credibly design a small pyramid and have it last a long time.

======

You write:

"But the MAIN POINT is that most of world's religions covenants for ethics, morals, and conduct are pretty accurate also if you strip the laws dealing with religious adherence out of them. "

Even YOU keep underestimating human intelligence of thousands of years ago, it is a common mistake even smart people like you make, Farming showed up 10,000 years ago, but many people today don't know how to grow Tomatoes successfully, I have had single big cherry tomato plant produce over 1,000 tomatoes.

Romans made BETTER Concrete than we do today, the Appian Road still exist in stretches, even after 2000 years....,, beautiful cave PAINTINGS 5,000-9,000 years ago...., can go on and on.

Copper Smelting arrived 7,000 years ago, Tin and Lead 8,500 years ago.....

Humans were already intelligent then.

======

You write:

"I already told you how religious ASSOCIATION is a vital FABRIC of a community. I knew this as a teen, but it became blazingly apparent when i moved to the "Buckle of the Bible Belt" over a decade ago and saw it in action.. You give no credit for all the aforementioned things and just beat faith vs science thing to death."

Yes I am well aware as I was a DEACON in Church back in the 1980's, the SOCIAL side of religion has long been known to be good for the community, it something I NEVER criticize in my replies, because it is irrelevant to the question whether god exist or not since there are also many NON religious groups that do at least some of the similar things too. I have sent literally a few THOUSAND dollars worth of materials and equipment to Goodwill and Salvation army, the first was originally religious, being founded in 1902 by the Methodist Minister and the other is currently religious.

I gave an indoor astronomical presentation in a Church in 1991 as an Atheist, showed using my then Celestron 11" Telescope running on a clock drive out on the church grounds showing a few deep sky wonders, all done for free. The Church was packed and the line long for my Telescope. The Minister didn't worry about my Atheism at all since he know I wasn't there to bother people on church grounds over it. I would never do it on ANY church grounds because it is the right thing to do....., to keep my mouth shut in such places.

I am an Atheists who is CURRENTLY helping a religious friend and her teen daughter financially and take them to places for food and school. I do it for free and on my own time, it has cost me over $6500, in just the last 5 years. Also help her deal with some legal issues as well, also done on my time.....

 

[Grumblenuts]

Please continue to flame me in PM or a Taunting Forum.. I'll even help you get all vented out so you're not doing this in threads...

Yes, you too, but please keep presuming to correct and scold everyone like a

Definition of SCHOOLMARM

a woman who is a schoolteacher especially in a rural or small-town school; a person who exhibits characteristics attributed to schoolteachers (such as strict adherence to arbitrary rules)… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Those shoes fit so well.

Meanwhile, regarding your wonderous Bible belt culture, buckles, how other "communities" may have actually long found better ways to handle such things in general, and actual facts..

Politics and Society in the Bible Belt

Many commentators have pointed out that while religious observance in the Bible Belt is high, it is a region of a variety of social issues. Educational attainment and college graduation rates in the Bible Belt are among the lowest in the United States. Cardiovascular and heart disease, obesity, homicide, teenage pregnancy, and sexually transmitted infections are among the highest rates in the nation.

At the same time, the region is known for its conservative values, and the region is often considered to be a politically conservative region. The "red states" within the Bible Belt traditionally support Republican candidates for state and federal office. Alabama, Mississippi, Kansas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Texas have consistently pledged their electoral college votes to the Republican candidate for president in each presidential election since 1980.

Linked reference numbers deleted for easier reading. See link for the original.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

I pulled this out because I'm afraid that I won't have time to respond to everything before I have to leave. No this isn't a "stereotype" at all. I don't think that you understand what I mean. I'm going to clarify that for you right now.

One of the things that drives me insane is when an atheist or someone with a political bent wants Christians to be held accountable for something that is clearly beyond their control in the present or past. This includes laws, the number of Christians in prison, lone wolf folks that are shooters with lengthy manifestos on anti abortion stances because of God, serial killers that firmly believe that they are doing God's work, the vague "religious right", burning witches, and leadership decisions of both the past and present.

Stop trying to force them to accept some guilt for things that are beyond their control. They aren't movers and shakers. They are just normal, everyday people that try to do the right thing. They are no different than the rest of us.

Does this apply to trying to hold people to reparations for past genocides based on the presumption of "who got benefits at the expense of others"?

What about Parties?

If Parties solicit donations and support based on lobbying govt for policies that turn out to be unconstitutional, do the Parties owe taxpayers for the cost of corrections, debts or damages their Party cost the rest of the nation?

Could claims for reparations apply to Parties? Would this help to deter fraud and abuses and compel more direct accountability?

 

[emilynghiem]

FlaCalTenn writes:

" J dont see faith that way.. What do folks do when 2 or 3 doctors or dentists dont agree on your diagnosis? Do you go by reviews on Yelp? Spend weeks researching "alternatives and standards of care"? Most folks might. But many will end up traveling to a clinic in Mexico for a decision that "makes them comfortable".. As much as science and logic and reason rule my life -- a lot of the most important decisions are done on faith.. "

I go by their REPUTATION and they have the legal documents that states he is a lawfully educated accredited Dentist in the state. No second opinion is ever necessary for me, I just weight what my dentist suggest and go with it. It is a very well established profession.

Faith based decisions never enters my thoughts on medical decisions, since I already know the person before I CHOSE that person to be my medical practitioner, the science based information gathering way always works for me.

I don't make guesses as the basis for making a decision.

======

You write:

"The scriptures are not random pronouncements. There were different explanations for disease and prevention in those days. And they WERE QUITE ACCURATE... The Kosher and Halal laws ban pork and shellfish -- both disease vectors if not prepared and harvested properly. And the restrictions on having dairy and meat at the SAME MEAL -- was a "virtue signal" about how to HUMANELY slaughter and treat your cattle.."

None here shows evidence that god exist, it shows that smart people have figured it out. People even further back in time 3,500 years ago manage to build Pyramids too, because there are smart people then who can design them.

There are many people living today, despite having an education and a lots of reference books and computers to use can't even begin to credibly design a small pyramid and have it last a long time.

======

You write:

"But the MAIN POINT is that most of world's religions covenants for ethics, morals, and conduct are pretty accurate also if you strip the laws dealing with religious adherence out of them. "

Even YOU keep underestimating human intelligence of thousands of years ago, it is a common mistake even smart people like you make, Farming showed up 10,000 years ago, but many people today don't know how to grow Tomatoes successfully, I have had single big cherry tomato plant produce over 1,000 tomatoes.

Romans made BETTER Concrete than we do today, the Appian Road still exist in stretches, even after 2000 years....,, beautiful cave PAINTINGS 5,000-9,000 years ago...., can go on and on.

Copper Smelting arrived 7,000 years ago, Tin and Lead 8,500 years ago.....

Humans were already intelligent then.

======

You write:

"I already told you how religious ASSOCIATION is a vital FABRIC of a community. I knew this as a teen, but it became blazingly apparent when i moved to the "Buckle of the Bible Belt" over a decade ago and saw it in action.. You give no credit for all the aforementioned things and just beat faith vs science thing to death."

Yes I am well aware as I was a DEACON in Church back in the 1980's, the SOCIAL side of religion has long been known to be good for the community, it something I NEVER criticize in my replies, because it is irrelevant to the question whether god exist or not since there are also many NON religious groups that do at least some of the similar things too. I have sent literally a few THOUSAND dollars worth of materials and equipment to Goodwill and Salvation army, the first was originally religious, being founded in 1902 by the Methodist Minister and the other is currently religious.

I gave an indoor astronomical presentation in a Church in 1991 as an Atheist, showed using my then Celestron 11" Telescope running on a clock drive out on the church grounds showing a few deep sky wonders, all done for free. The Church was packed and the line long for my Telescope. The Minister didn't worry about my Atheism at all since he know I wasn't there to bother people on church grounds over it. I would never do it on ANY church grounds because it is the right thing to do....., to keep my mouth shut in such places.

I am an Atheists who is CURRENTLY helping a religious friend and her teen daughter financially and take them to places for food and school. I do it for free and on my own time, it has cost me over $6500, in just the last 5 years. Also help her deal with some legal issues as well, also done on my time.....

Thanks to whoever wrote this. I can't follow who said what on this limited phone. But from what I read, thanks to the author(s)!

 

[emilynghiem]

If I start a thread about my belief that the traditional teachings about heaven and hell originate from paganism, and my intent is to get "traditional christians" to defend this, AS AN ATHEIST, WHAT IS THE POINT OF YOU INSERTING YOURSELF?

Um, discussion and debate?




Oh.


Right.


My bad.

Personally I don't bother with what DA talked about because it is a waste of time. I prefer to address the very CORE of religion problems such bible errors and impossible maths in some passages, That way it allows for only two possible answers.

That's fine if it's TOPICAL.. If you go way off topic to do this -- and it's your chronic go-to -- it's not really topical discussion..

Would be like a discussion topic on back radiation in Global Warming being hijacked by someone going back to using the Authority Fallacy to cut-off discussion.. Instead of citing facts, evidence or questions that haven't been addressed by authority. How frustrating is that if it happens in EVERY discussion?

Actually religion based arguments are always lacking definitive answers because they are not based on anything real or provable, they fall back on the FAITH position in the end.

While Science can be based on real numbers and understanding of numbers that are subject to testing process...., eventually generate a learning base of understanding, it is why Science is self replicating/propelling itself forward based on prior validated research that allows science research to grow onward into the future.

Religion never does that, it is static for 2,000 years living a FAITH based position, a very dry way, no growth path to live...., those endless repeating religions shows say they same FAITH based stuff over and over and over for the last few decades.

What a bore religion becomes, a simple set of lessons would have been enough by the teenage years for those who chose to be religious it isn't complicated at all, then get on with life after that.

This is one of the main reason why many people stop going to churches after a decade or two, they see and hear the same stuff over and over and over and over and over, it gets really tiring after a while to hear the same thing 500 times.

Science can prove the science part, and we can agree on the faith based parts that matter. If they don't matter we can drop those and go with the parts we CAN agree on that DO matter.

For example Sunsettommy
With spiritual healing that has been medically studied and documented, we can measure the conditions before and after effective healing has been applied.

What we cannot prove, the faith based part, is the causal relationship between the forgiveness and generational healing step of the therapy and "prove" it caused the physical changes to occur.

We CAN use STATS to show CORRELATION but not necessarly causality where the changes can occur over time and varies greatly from case to case.

What I believe is worth "proving by repeat studies to show a consistent pattern":
1. Degrees reported of forgiveness and ability to interact inclusively with opposing people or groups "correlates" with ability to heal mind, body and relationships and to report greater success solving problems effectively, collaboratively and sustainably.
2. Degrees of unforgiveness and rejection of opposing ideas, people or groups will "correlate" with greater rates of failure to resolve conflicts, solve problems, or communicate and interact effectively.

We can measure even "subjective faith based" reports and still show the statistics that demonstrate a correlation.

We already have studies connecting forgiveness and reportimg positive faith with better health, while resentment and stress correlates with worse health.

The medical studies can also measure physical effects on conditions of mind and body to compare changes before or after (as in the published medical study on RA by the healing team methods of Francis MacNutt and Christian Healing Ministry in FL).

When Scott Peck (author of Glimpses of the Devil) observed the deliverance process himself to document the effect of healing on two severely schizophrenic patients deemed incurable by medicine, his assessment was 95% of the process could be quantified by science and doctors by similar standards used in psychotherapy and the scientific method of applying the proposed cure, then confirming the results to test if the hypothesis worked or not. That part could be measured and conducted consistently with medical science. However the 5% that remained faith based was the personal experience and phenomena witnessed by him and his team. They all reported seeing the same things, but this was on a spiritual level (maybe astral as dreams are seen in the mind), and only parts of these phenomena could be seen in the footage. That part might remain faith based and different for each person, similar to reporting what we dreamed about at night nobody else can see.

Science can measure the brain activity and REM stages of dreaming. But the content and meaning of what we dream remains faith based and unproven.

We can agree on the scientific proveable parts and agree that the internal process may remain faith based and up to the individual what they experience and what it means to them.

 

[buttercup]

For example, we don't need religion to tell us what constitutes right action. We do it because it needs to be done or we don't.

I think this is one of the biggest misunderstandings among atheists. It's not that we need "religion" to tell us what constitutes right action. It's that atheism cannot account for morality at all, there is no objective moral standard with atheism, it does not and cannot exist in an atheistic worldview. That is one of the fatal flaws of atheism.

It's not "religion" that constitutes right or wrong. True morality is rooted in God, in His nature. As I'm sure you know, God and religion are not the same thing.

 

[Grumblenuts]

FlaCalTenn writes:

" J dont see faith that way.. What do folks do when 2 or 3 doctors or dentists dont agree on your diagnosis? Do you go by reviews on Yelp? Spend weeks researching "alternatives and standards of care"? Most folks might. But many will end up traveling to a clinic in Mexico for a decision that "makes them comfortable".. As much as science and logic and reason rule my life -- a lot of the most important decisions are done on faith.. "

I go by their REPUTATION and they have the legal documents that states he is a lawfully educated accredited Dentist in the state. No second opinion is ever necessary for me, I just weight what my dentist suggest and go with it. It is a very well established profession.

Faith based decisions never enters my thoughts on medical decisions, since I already know the person before I CHOSE that person to be my medical practitioner, the science based information gathering way always works for me.

I don't make guesses as the basis for making a decision.

======

You write:

"The scriptures are not random pronouncements. There were different explanations for disease and prevention in those days. And they WERE QUITE ACCURATE... The Kosher and Halal laws ban pork and shellfish -- both disease vectors if not prepared and harvested properly. And the restrictions on having dairy and meat at the SAME MEAL -- was a "virtue signal" about how to HUMANELY slaughter and treat your cattle.."

None here shows evidence that god exist, it shows that smart people have figured it out. People even further back in time 3,500 years ago manage to build Pyramids too, because there are smart people then who can design them.

There are many people living today, despite having an education and a lots of reference books and computers to use can't even begin to credibly design a small pyramid and have it last a long time.

======

You write:

"But the MAIN POINT is that most of world's religions covenants for ethics, morals, and conduct are pretty accurate also if you strip the laws dealing with religious adherence out of them. "

Even YOU keep underestimating human intelligence of thousands of years ago, it is a common mistake even smart people like you make, Farming showed up 10,000 years ago, but many people today don't know how to grow Tomatoes successfully, I have had single big cherry tomato plant produce over 1,000 tomatoes.

Romans made BETTER Concrete than we do today, the Appian Road still exist in stretches, even after 2000 years....,, beautiful cave PAINTINGS 5,000-9,000 years ago...., can go on and on.

Copper Smelting arrived 7,000 years ago, Tin and Lead 8,500 years ago.....

Humans were already intelligent then.

======

You write:

"I already told you how religious ASSOCIATION is a vital FABRIC of a community. I knew this as a teen, but it became blazingly apparent when i moved to the "Buckle of the Bible Belt" over a decade ago and saw it in action.. You give no credit for all the aforementioned things and just beat faith vs science thing to death."

Yes I am well aware as I was a DEACON in Church back in the 1980's, the SOCIAL side of religion has long been known to be good for the community, it something I NEVER criticize in my replies, because it is irrelevant to the question whether god exist or not since there are also many NON religious groups that do at least some of the similar things too. I have sent literally a few THOUSAND dollars worth of materials and equipment to Goodwill and Salvation army, the first was originally religious, being founded in 1902 by the Methodist Minister and the other is currently religious.

I gave an indoor astronomical presentation in a Church in 1991 as an Atheist, showed using my then Celestron 11" Telescope running on a clock drive out on the church grounds showing a few deep sky wonders, all done for free. The Church was packed and the line long for my Telescope. The Minister didn't worry about my Atheism at all since he know I wasn't there to bother people on church grounds over it. I would never do it on ANY church grounds because it is the right thing to do....., to keep my mouth shut in such places.

I am an Atheists who is CURRENTLY helping a religious friend and her teen daughter financially and take them to places for food and school. I do it for free and on my own time, it has cost me over $6500, in just the last 5 years. Also help her deal with some legal issues as well, also done on my time.....

Thanks to whoever wrote this. I can't follow who said what on this limited phone. But from what I read, thanks to the author(s)!

I thank you for that as well, tommy. As I've mentioned before, our current closest, long time friends are devout Christians. Nothing quite like being lent zero benefit of the doubt and having a cow the moment one sniffs an atheist. Bizarro world.

 

[Disir]

Well I realized that there was no atheist moral or ethical code or commitment required and no discipline required to wake up early on Sunday to dress up and commune with the community and renew inspirational goals.. But when "we know some stuff" -- do you all AGREE on that stuff? Do you have the "right course of action" written down anywhere? That's the special fatal flaw in secular humanism which REALLY IS your scripture...

I'm sorry that atheists can be assholes.

We agree that we don't need religion to tell us how to define what is good and bad or evil. That's pretty much it. Yes, I constantly have the right course of action nearby. It's usually next to my grocery list and keys.

Also, I am in the unique position that I get to work with a lot of faith based charity organizations and they do a lot of wonderful things. I am not going to run a drive because I am also in the unique position that if I can swing it then I will give whatever is needed directly to the individual that needs it.

And to use EVERY THREAD in Religion, regardless of the topic, to PROSTELYTIZE people of faith into submission, is why that forum is a no mans land... Mind you -- I have no beef with atheists. I'm not religious anymore, but I think it shows cracks in your morals and ethics if belittling people of faith is the ONE AND ONLY thing -- you can all identify with..

My threads are primarily about history, archaeology, architecture. religious festivals and some news worthy things that are occurring. I have in the past started threads about all kinds of religions and multiple denominations or sects with differing views. Sometimes they do incorporate some interpretation or view point but I don't normally argue what they write on the religion forum or their beliefs.

I had this discussion the other day with someone that made the assumption that I was Christian because of my topics. It is rare that I get involved in any discussion involving the interpretation of the New Testament. I am not interested in topics of did Jesus exist, does God exist and/or biblical literalists. Not my thing. Now, I know a great deal about early Christianity because I have studied it. You run into it when you study the Roman Empire. You are going to need that information if you want to understand many time periods. I like "the history of Christianity" rather than interpretations or texts.

There are a couple of exceptions. I regularly check in on a reporter guy that lives near the Vatican and he is currently very critical of the Pope BUT because he is in Europe he discusses all of these other Bishops and questions that are raised and differing view points that are found in other countries........and it's kind of cool. I also might respond to something from the OT and interpretations because I have bought almost near everything by a Rabbi or two and the interpretations offer not just differing views but something that I feel has more depth. It's a lot about the human experience and that is interesting.

And creating an Atheist Forum would set you off because it would be an attempt to "use us for a political end? Not at all. In fact, this whole Bible and Faith cancellation is ALREADY a means for a political end. It's just more of the divisive nature of Leftist politics to SEPARATE allegiances and move POLITICAL allegiance higher in the order of allegiances..

Nope. Creating an Atheist forum would be boring and empty. So, a few years ago there was this push for people that were agnostic and atheist to meet as if it was a church because there was a sense of loss of community after having left Christianity. I'm not a joiner. If I wanted to meet with people in a church like setting then I would go to a church, right? What are you going to talk about? I'm an atheist. Bam. Done.

But, it gets better. It started to look like it was going to be used to promote a political ideology and party. But, it gets even better. The people that were pushing it were also self-promoting and appeared to be positioning themselves to be the newer generation of atheists that would slide right into where Hitchens and Dawkins were or had been. I wasn't interested in any of that BS. Frankly, they just were not good enough. That era is over. Again, what are you going to talk about? I'm an atheist. Bam Done. Older atheists are highly skeptical of that crap.

From a guy who DOES BELIEVE in "Natural Law" form of deity, I'll give that Communism is NOT equal to atheism.. But atheism is a vital PREQUISITE for Marxism or Communism.. And that is germane because we now have corporate America and one of two piss poor political parties BEND ASS AND KNEE for self-acknowledged MARXIST inspired organizations. Ask the couple million Uigars locked up in Western China to pick cotton for Nike tennis shoes under abhorrent slave conditions about the existence of Higher Moral Authority than man...

Ok. Let's backtrack for a minute here. Communism can have no competing ideology. Religion is a competing ideology. Additionally, how much involvement did the Catholic Church have in official state business of name your country since it's inception? I'm not saying that it was good or bad because it's a done deal. Right? So........no competing ideology means that you lessen the risk of being overthrown. That was the key point behind it.

What we have now is divide and conquer and a shit load of imbeciles that have lost their ability to think critically.

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

I agree. That was what I pretty much said earlier in the thread. It's a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Disir]

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

I pulled this out because I'm afraid that I won't have time to respond to everything before I have to leave. No this isn't a "stereotype" at all. I don't think that you understand what I mean. I'm going to clarify that for you right now.

One of the things that drives me insane is when an atheist or someone with a political bent wants Christians to be held accountable for something that is clearly beyond their control in the present or past. This includes laws, the number of Christians in prison, lone wolf folks that are shooters with lengthy manifestos on anti abortion stances because of God, serial killers that firmly believe that they are doing God's work, the vague "religious right", burning witches, and leadership decisions of both the past and present.

Stop trying to force them to accept some guilt for things that are beyond their control. They aren't movers and shakers. They are just normal, everyday people that try to do the right thing. They are no different than the rest of us.

I apologize for getting that all wrong. That's why long form discussion can head off so much tension from being misunderstood.. Once I get wound - up, the safety latch is off...

It's all good.

 

[Disir]

That's kind of a vapid stereotype aint it? Religious folks are not "movers and shakers"? Name me ONE struggle for civil rights in the Modern era that where religious leaders were NOT at the tip of the spear. There are no religious scientists or community leaders? Bahhh-loney..

"They are just people" -- is my favorite line from secular humanists who believe that MORTAL men and women should be the final authority on your freedom or prosperity or health. This can end quite frequently like I said before with your secular humanist carcass in deep prison crevasse or concentration camp SUDDENLY REALIZING that man is NOT the final arbiter of things to do with freedom and personal autonomy or law....

I pulled this out because I'm afraid that I won't have time to respond to everything before I have to leave. No this isn't a "stereotype" at all. I don't think that you understand what I mean. I'm going to clarify that for you right now.

One of the things that drives me insane is when an atheist or someone with a political bent wants Christians to be held accountable for something that is clearly beyond their control in the present or past. This includes laws, the number of Christians in prison, lone wolf folks that are shooters with lengthy manifestos on anti abortion stances because of God, serial killers that firmly believe that they are doing God's work, the vague "religious right", burning witches, and leadership decisions of both the past and present.

Stop trying to force them to accept some guilt for things that are beyond their control. They aren't movers and shakers. They are just normal, everyday people that try to do the right thing. They are no different than the rest of us.

Does this apply to trying to hold people to reparations for past genocides based on the presumption of "who got benefits at the expense of others"?

What about Parties?

If Parties solicit donations and support based on lobbying govt for policies that turn out to be unconstitutional, do the Parties owe taxpayers for the cost of corrections, debts or damages their Party cost the rest of the nation?

Could claims for reparations apply to Parties? Would this help to deter fraud and abuses and compel more direct accountability?

That sounds like a great topic for another thread.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

I agree. That was what I pretty much said earlier in the thread. It's a bunch of nonsense.

Nice. You two should seriously consider getting a room. Perhaps even invite Buttercup?

 

[Disir]

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

I agree. That was what I pretty much said earlier in the thread. It's a bunch of nonsense.

Nice. You two should seriously consider getting a room. Perhaps even invite Buttercup?

Do you have a specific problem?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Not here to pick any fight -- but the root of the problem in the Religion forum is that TOLERANCE is apparently NOT in the atheist manuscript. And this pressing need to POUND on the principles of people of faith is not a good look.. MOST of the offenders are no-nothing wannabee comics and just troll the threads with posts about "worshipping the Spaghetti Monster", but some of them are there because I FEAR they hate competition for ideologies...

I agree. That was what I pretty much said earlier in the thread. It's a bunch of nonsense.

Nice. You two should seriously consider getting a room. Perhaps even invite Buttercup?

Do you have a specific problem?

Lol. You mean other than being personally attacked here with the same lame nonsense like five or six times now? The least you could do is actually quote people supposedly doing what you're whining on about for comparison.

 

[Disir]

Lol. You mean other than being personally attacked here with the same lame nonsense like five or six times now? The least you could do is actually quote people supposedly doing what you're whining on about for comparison.

I stated what I was irritated about in my first post on the thread. Several other people knew what I was discussing. The point was the actions and not the members themselves.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Lol. You mean other than being personally attacked here with the same lame nonsense like five or six times now? The least you could do is actually quote people supposedly doing what you're whining on about for comparison.

I stated what I was irritated about in my first post on the thread. Several other people knew what i was discussing. The point was the actions and not the members themselves.

Don't play dumb. You just reposted flacall's unapologetic personal attack upon me specifically to voice your unfettered agreement with it.

Never mind. Play dumb. I've really never expected more from either of you.

 

[Disir]

Lol. You mean other than being personally attacked here with the same lame nonsense like five or six times now? The least you could do is actually quote people supposedly doing what you're whining on about for comparison.

I stated what I was irritated about in my first post on the thread. Several other people knew what i was discussing. The point was the actions and not the members themselves.

Don't play dumb. You just reposted flacall's unapologetic personal attack upon me specifically to voice your unfettered agreement with it.

Never mind. Play dumb. I've really never expected more from either of you.

Religion and Ethics

Is there a possibility of moving Religious and Ethics to Zone one? I'm tired of chasing down trolls that only want to bash religion. A Forum I created over a year ago, that was one of the forum blocks I set up in the protected area, did that in a forum I created about 8 years ago too, again...

www.usmessageboard.com

No. He posted that to me.