Real economics

Skull Pilot

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Nov 17, 2007
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We've all seen what happens when economic policies are run at the whims of politicians.

In my quest to bring you real information you can use, here is yet another essay on the economy.

Financial Crisis and Recession - Jesus Huerta de Soto - Mises Institute

Financial Crisis and Recession
Daily Article by Jesus Huerta de Soto | Posted on 10/6/2008

The severe financial crisis and resulting worldwide economic recession we have been forecasting for years are finally unleashing their fury. In fact, the reckless policy of artificial credit expansion that central banks (led by the American Federal Reserve) have permitted and orchestrated over the last fifteen years could not have ended in any other way.

That's right 15 years not just the last 8. Politicians have a very short memory. It usually ends at the time they were last voted out of office.

The expansionary cycle that has now come to a close was set in motion when the American economy emerged from its last recession in 1992 and the Federal Reserve embarked on a major artificial expansion of credit and investment, an expansion unbacked by a parallel increase in voluntary household saving. For many years, the money supply in the form of banknotes and deposits (M3) has grown at an average rate of over ten percent per year (which means that every six or seven years the total volume of money circulating in the world has doubled). The media of exchange originating from this severe fiduciary inflation have been placed on the market by the banking system as newly created loans granted at extremely low (and even negative in real terms) interest rates. The above fueled a speculative bubble in the shape of a substantial rise in the prices of capital goods, real-estate assets, and the securities that represent them and are exchanged on the stock market, where indexes soared.

The very same expansionary cycle that we will be extending through the bail out which will result in more inflation and an extended bubble that will now take much longer to correct.

Curiously, as in the "roaring" years prior to the Great Depression of 1929, the shock of monetary growth has not significantly influenced the prices of the subset of goods and services at the final-consumer level of the production structure (approximately only one third of all goods). The decade just past, like the 1920s, has seen a remarkable increase in productivity as a result of the introduction on a massive scale of new technologies and significant entrepreneurial innovations which, were it not for the "money and credit binge," would have given rise to a healthy and sustained reduction in the unit price of the goods and services all citizens consume. Moreover, the full incorporation of the economies of China and India into the globalized market has gradually raised the real productivity of consumer goods and services even further. The absence of a healthy "deflation" in the prices of consumer goods in a period of such considerable growth in productivity as that of recent years provides the main evidence that the monetary shock has seriously disturbed the economic process.

In short, we have not seen a reduction in consumer prices even though world productivity has risen through globalization of the markets which should have naturally caused prices to fall because of the free credit attitude in the markets and encouraged by the feds who in their wisdom deemed that more money must be made available for more credit which will inevitably keep consumer prices from pursuing a natural course of deflation.


Economic theory teaches us that, unfortunately, artificial credit expansion and the (fiduciary) inflation of media of exchange offer no shortcut to stable and sustained economic development, no way of avoiding the necessary sacrifice and discipline behind all voluntary saving. (In fact, particularly in the United States, voluntary saving has not only failed to increase, but in some years has even fallen to a negative rate.)

Indeed, the artificial expansion of credit and money is never more than a short-term solution, and often not even that. In fact, today there is no doubt about the recessionary consequence that the monetary shock always has in the long run: newly created loans (of money citizens have not first saved) immediately provide entrepreneurs with purchasing power they use in overly ambitious investment projects (in recent years, especially in the building sector and real-estate development). In other words, entrepreneurs act as if citizens had increased their saving, when they have not actually done so.


By making easy credit available to those who historically saved the least, we entered into a positive feedback loop where easy credit fueled rising prices which drove speculators to obtain more easy credit so they could drive prices up even higher. that same easy credit and artificially rising real estate prices allowed property owners to easily get credit in amounts greater than the actual value of their assets.

Widespread discoordination in the economic system results: the financial bubble ("irrational exuberance") exerts a harmful effect on the real economy, and sooner or later the process reverses in the form of an economic recession, which marks the beginning of the painful and necessary readjustment. This readjustment invariably requires the reconversion of the entire real productive structure, which inflation has distorted.

The specific triggers of the end of the euphoric monetary "binge" and the beginning of the recessionary "hangover" are many, and they can vary from one cycle to another. In the current circumstances, the most obvious triggers have been the rise in the price of raw materials, particularly oil, the subprime mortgage crisis in the United States, and finally, the failure of important banking institutions when it became clear in the market that the value of their debts exceeded that of their assets (mortgage loans granted).

At present, numerous self-interested voices are demanding further reductions in interest rates and new injections of money, which permit those who desire it to complete their investment projects without suffering losses.


ibid.

Nevertheless, this "flight into the future" would only temporarily postpone problems at the cost of making them far more serious later. The crisis has hit because the profits of capital-goods companies (especially in the building sector and in real-estate development) have disappeared due to the entrepreneurial errors provoked by cheap credit, and because the prices of consumer goods have begun to rise faster than those of capital goods.

At this point, an inevitable, painful readjustment begins, and in addition to a drop in production and an increase in unemployment, we are now seeing a very harmful rise in the prices of consumer goods (stagflation).

The most rigorous economic analysis and the coolest, most balanced interpretation of recent economic and financial events lead inexorably to the conclusion that central banks (which are in fact monetary central-planning agencies) cannot possibly succeed in finding the most advantageous monetary policy at every moment. This is exactly what became clear in the case of the failed attempts to plan the former Soviet economy from above.

To put it another way, the theorem of the economic impossibility of socialism, which the Austrian economists Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich A. Hayek discovered, is fully applicable to central banks in general, and to the Federal Reserve and (at one time) Alan Greenspan and (currently) Ben Bernanke in particular. According to this theorem, it is impossible to organize society, in terms of economics, based on coercive commands issued by a planning agency, since such a body can never obtain the information it needs to infuse its commands with a coordinating nature. Indeed, nothing is more dangerous than to indulge in the "fatal conceit" — to use Hayek's useful expression — of believing oneself omniscient or at least wise and powerful enough to be able to keep the most suitable monetary policy fine-tuned at all times. Hence, rather than soften the most violent ups and downs of the economic cycle, the Federal Reserve and, to a lesser extent, the European Central Bank, have most likely been their main architects and the culprits in their worsening.


In short: Government policies will make our economic situation worse not better.

Therefore, the dilemma facing Ben Bernanke and his Federal Reserve Board, as well as the other central banks (beginning with the European Central Bank), is not at all comfortable. For years they have shirked their fiduciary responsibility, and now they find themselves in a blind alley. They can either allow the recessionary process to begin now, and with it the healthy and painful readjustment, or they can procrastinate with a "hair of the dog" cure. With the latter, the chances of even more severe stagflation in the not-too-distant future increase exponentially. (This was precisely the error committed following the stock market crash of 1987, an error that led to the inflation at the end of the 1980s and concluded with the sharp recession of 1990-1992.)

Furthermore, the reintroduction of a cheap-credit policy at this stage could only hinder the necessary liquidation of unprofitable investments and company reconversion. It could even wind up prolonging the recession indefinitely, as occurred in the Japanese economy, which, after all possible interventions were tried, ceased to respond to any stimulus involving credit expansion or Keynesian methods.



Hair of the dog cures result in addiction. More credit given to a creditholic economy will only result in a deepening credit addiction that will be harder from which to recover if we can recover at all.

It is in this context of "financial schizophrenia" that we must interpret the latest "shots in the dark" fired by the monetary authorities (who have two totally contradictory responsibilities: both to control inflation and to inject all the liquidity necessary into the financial system to prevent its collapse). Thus, one day the Fed rescues AIG, Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, and the next it allows Lehman Brothers to fail, under the amply justified pretext of "teaching a lesson" and refusing to fuel moral hazard. Finally, in light of the way events were unfolding, the US government announced a $700 billion plan to purchase illiquid (i.e., worthless) assets from the banking system. If the plan is financed by taxes (and not more inflation), it will mean a heavy tax burden on households, precisely when they are least able to bear it.

And both presidential candidates still have you believing that they will lower your taxes.

Under these circumstances, the most appropriate policy would be to liberalize the economy at all levels (especially in the labor market) to permit the rapid reallocation of productive factors (particularly labor) to profitable sectors. Likewise, it is essential to reduce public spending and taxes, in order to increase the available income of heavily indebted economic agents who need to repay their loans as soon as possible.

Economic agents in general and companies in particular can only rehabilitate their finances by cutting costs (especially labor costs) and paying off loans. Essential to this aim are a very flexible labor market and a much more austere public sector. These factors are fundamental if the market is to reveal as quickly as possible the real value of the investment goods produced in error and thus lay the foundation for a healthy, sustained economic recovery in a future that, for the good of all, we hope is not too distant.


If government were to cut taxes and spending, easing the burden on business, we could see a lower rise in unemployment than we will under the current government plan that sets the burden of recovery squarely on the shoulders of the taxpayers and business.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/bu...PNvZ6J2jLCo+qw



S.E.C. Concedes Oversight Flaws Fueled Collapse
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By STEPHEN LABATON
Published: September 26, 2008
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, a longtime proponent of deregulation, acknowledged on Friday that failures in a voluntary supervision program for Wall Street’s largest investment banks had contributed to the global financial crisis, and he abruptly shut the program down.

The S.E.C.’s oversight responsibilities will largely shift to the Federal Reserve, though the commission will continue to oversee the brokerage units of investment banks.

Also Friday, the S.E.C.’s inspector general released a report strongly criticizing the agency’s performance in monitoring Bear Stearns before it collapsed in March. Christopher Cox, the commission chairman, said he agreed that the oversight program was “fundamentally flawed from the beginning.”

“The last six months have made it abundantly clear that voluntary regulation does not work,” he said in a statement. The program “was fundamentally flawed from the beginning, because investment banks could opt in or out of supervision voluntarily. The fact that investment bank holding companies could withdraw from this voluntary supervision at their discretion diminished the perceived mandate” of the program, and “weakened its effectiveness,” he added.
 
Skull, how long have you been studying Austrian Economics?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/bu...PNvZ6J2jLCo+qw



S.E.C. Concedes Oversight Flaws Fueled Collapse
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By STEPHEN LABATON
Published: September 26, 2008
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, a longtime proponent of deregulation, acknowledged on Friday that failures in a voluntary supervision program for Wall Street’s largest investment banks had contributed to the global financial crisis, and he abruptly shut the program down.

If banks that had participated in poor business practices were allowed to fail rather than being bailed out by the government, we would see a swift return to responsible lending practices.

The S.E.C.’s oversight responsibilities will largely shift to the Federal Reserve, though the commission will continue to oversee the brokerage units of investment banks.

The same agency that kept interest rates artificially low which fueled the current situation. where higher interest rates would have naturally contracted the real estate markets interest rates were held so low that it was actually costing people money NOT to borrow more thereby fueling the feeding frenzy that got us into this mess.

Also Friday, the S.E.C.’s inspector general released a report strongly criticizing the agency’s performance in monitoring Bear Stearns before it collapsed in March. Christopher Cox, the commission chairman, said he agreed that the oversight program was “fundamentally flawed from the beginning.

“The last six months have made it abundantly clear that voluntary regulation does not work,” he said in a statement. The program “was fundamentally flawed from the beginning, because investment banks could opt in or out of supervision voluntarily. The fact that investment bank holding companies could withdraw from this voluntary supervision at their discretion diminished the perceived mandate” of the program, and “weakened its effectiveness,” he added.

What exactly was the oversight meant to catch? the fact that banks were lending too much? Again the solution here is to let banks that act irresponsibly fail.

Citi was badly hurt by the mortgage problem but it did not make them fail. Which should tell you that not ALL banks would have failed. there would have been a painful but rather short restructuring of the system rather than the long drawn out slow and painful process we will have to endure because of government policies.
 
Skull, how long have you been studying Austrian Economics?

I have been working my way through the Mises reading lists for a few years now. I must admit that i am not as well read in other economic theory but I'm working on it.
 
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The security and exchange comission.

They are the entity which is designed to police this industry.

Fed chairman does the interest rate you clown.

The SEC desided to allow the industry to police its self.

Yeap you heard that right , police themselfs.

Now on second blush they think that may not have been such a great idea.

Guess who appoints the SEC chairman?
 
The security and exchange comission.

They are the entity which is designed to police this industry.

Fed chairman does the interest rate you clown.

The SEC desided to allow the industry to police its self.

Yeap you heard that right , police themselfs.

Now on second blush they think that may not have been such a great idea.

Guess who appoints the SEC chairman?

The chairman of the federal reserve sets the interest rate duh. If the federal reserve will take over the SEC's oversight duty, who do you think will be 'policing" the banks? the same idiot who kept interest rates artificially low which contributed to our current situation. Who do you think appoints the chairman of the fed? The same guy who appoints the SEC chair. In other words a politician who doesn't know shit about economics.

You are not disproving my argument. yes banks were allowed to engage in bad business practices then said banks were bailed out by the government.

What is your point? Mine is that those banks should have been allowed to fail. so what if they didn't police themselves? Bad business practices means you're out of business. Every small business owner knows this and every bank chairman should as well if they don't know it, they cease to exist right?

but what government does is to interfere with the natural order of things by "encouraging" sketchy lending practices and standards and then using tax payer money to bail out banks that screwed up.

Free credit has kept consumer prices artificially high and will continue to do so now that government has stuck us taxpayers with a bail out to buy basically worthless assets. this injection of money into the credit system will do nothing but continue a cycle that must be corrected thereby prolonging the correction and the pain that goes along with it.
 
Skull the only thing that bothers me is that I seem to remember you bad mouthing Ron Paul during the primaries. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you weren't exactly pushing him.

And we all know, of course, that he's the only candidate who advocates Austrian economics.
 
Did you miss the part where the SEC itsself admitted their lack of regulations on the industry helped cause this mess?
I will third the notion that you are wrong (after Skull Pilot and Kevin_Kennedy). The lack of certain regulations exacerbated the situation. But this was not the root cause. Not even close. The Federal Reserve and its policies are the root cause. Not allowing the free market determine the cost of credit is the root cause.

Brian
 
We've all seen what happens when economic policies are run at the whims of politicians.

In my quest to bring you real information you can use, here is yet another essay on the economy.

Financial Crisis and Recession - Jesus Huerta de Soto - Mises Institute

Financial Crisis and Recession
Daily Article by Jesus Huerta de Soto | Posted on 10/6/2008

The severe financial crisis and resulting worldwide economic recession we have been forecasting for years are finally unleashing their fury. In fact, the reckless policy of artificial credit expansion that central banks (led by the American Federal Reserve) have permitted and orchestrated over the last fifteen years could not have ended in any other way.

That's right 15 years not just the last 8. Politicians have a very short memory. It usually ends at the time they were last voted out of office.

The expansionary cycle that has now come to a close was set in motion when the American economy emerged from its last recession in 1992 and the Federal Reserve embarked on a major artificial expansion of credit and investment, an expansion unbacked by a parallel increase in voluntary household saving. For many years, the money supply in the form of banknotes and deposits (M3) has grown at an average rate of over ten percent per year (which means that every six or seven years the total volume of money circulating in the world has doubled). The media of exchange originating from this severe fiduciary inflation have been placed on the market by the banking system as newly created loans granted at extremely low (and even negative in real terms) interest rates. The above fueled a speculative bubble in the shape of a substantial rise in the prices of capital goods, real-estate assets, and the securities that represent them and are exchanged on the stock market, where indexes soared.

The very same expansionary cycle that we will be extending through the bail out which will result in more inflation and an extended bubble that will now take much longer to correct.

Curiously, as in the "roaring" years prior to the Great Depression of 1929, the shock of monetary growth has not significantly influenced the prices of the subset of goods and services at the final-consumer level of the production structure (approximately only one third of all goods). The decade just past, like the 1920s, has seen a remarkable increase in productivity as a result of the introduction on a massive scale of new technologies and significant entrepreneurial innovations which, were it not for the "money and credit binge," would have given rise to a healthy and sustained reduction in the unit price of the goods and services all citizens consume. Moreover, the full incorporation of the economies of China and India into the globalized market has gradually raised the real productivity of consumer goods and services even further. The absence of a healthy "deflation" in the prices of consumer goods in a period of such considerable growth in productivity as that of recent years provides the main evidence that the monetary shock has seriously disturbed the economic process.

In short, we have not seen a reduction in consumer prices even though world productivity has risen through globalization of the markets which should have naturally caused prices to fall because of the free credit attitude in the markets and encouraged by the feds who in their wisdom deemed that more money must be made available for more credit which will inevitably keep consumer prices from pursuing a natural course of deflation.


Economic theory teaches us that, unfortunately, artificial credit expansion and the (fiduciary) inflation of media of exchange offer no shortcut to stable and sustained economic development, no way of avoiding the necessary sacrifice and discipline behind all voluntary saving. (In fact, particularly in the United States, voluntary saving has not only failed to increase, but in some years has even fallen to a negative rate.)

Indeed, the artificial expansion of credit and money is never more than a short-term solution, and often not even that. In fact, today there is no doubt about the recessionary consequence that the monetary shock always has in the long run: newly created loans (of money citizens have not first saved) immediately provide entrepreneurs with purchasing power they use in overly ambitious investment projects (in recent years, especially in the building sector and real-estate development). In other words, entrepreneurs act as if citizens had increased their saving, when they have not actually done so.


By making easy credit available to those who historically saved the least, we entered into a positive feedback loop where easy credit fueled rising prices which drove speculators to obtain more easy credit so they could drive prices up even higher. that same easy credit and artificially rising real estate prices allowed property owners to easily get credit in amounts greater than the actual value of their assets.

Widespread discoordination in the economic system results: the financial bubble ("irrational exuberance") exerts a harmful effect on the real economy, and sooner or later the process reverses in the form of an economic recession, which marks the beginning of the painful and necessary readjustment. This readjustment invariably requires the reconversion of the entire real productive structure, which inflation has distorted.

The specific triggers of the end of the euphoric monetary "binge" and the beginning of the recessionary "hangover" are many, and they can vary from one cycle to another. In the current circumstances, the most obvious triggers have been the rise in the price of raw materials, particularly oil, the subprime mortgage crisis in the United States, and finally, the failure of important banking institutions when it became clear in the market that the value of their debts exceeded that of their assets (mortgage loans granted).

At present, numerous self-interested voices are demanding further reductions in interest rates and new injections of money, which permit those who desire it to complete their investment projects without suffering losses.


ibid.

Nevertheless, this "flight into the future" would only temporarily postpone problems at the cost of making them far more serious later. The crisis has hit because the profits of capital-goods companies (especially in the building sector and in real-estate development) have disappeared due to the entrepreneurial errors provoked by cheap credit, and because the prices of consumer goods have begun to rise faster than those of capital goods.

At this point, an inevitable, painful readjustment begins, and in addition to a drop in production and an increase in unemployment, we are now seeing a very harmful rise in the prices of consumer goods (stagflation).

The most rigorous economic analysis and the coolest, most balanced interpretation of recent economic and financial events lead inexorably to the conclusion that central banks (which are in fact monetary central-planning agencies) cannot possibly succeed in finding the most advantageous monetary policy at every moment. This is exactly what became clear in the case of the failed attempts to plan the former Soviet economy from above.

To put it another way, the theorem of the economic impossibility of socialism, which the Austrian economists Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich A. Hayek discovered, is fully applicable to central banks in general, and to the Federal Reserve and (at one time) Alan Greenspan and (currently) Ben Bernanke in particular. According to this theorem, it is impossible to organize society, in terms of economics, based on coercive commands issued by a planning agency, since such a body can never obtain the information it needs to infuse its commands with a coordinating nature. Indeed, nothing is more dangerous than to indulge in the "fatal conceit" — to use Hayek's useful expression — of believing oneself omniscient or at least wise and powerful enough to be able to keep the most suitable monetary policy fine-tuned at all times. Hence, rather than soften the most violent ups and downs of the economic cycle, the Federal Reserve and, to a lesser extent, the European Central Bank, have most likely been their main architects and the culprits in their worsening.


In short: Government policies will make our economic situation worse not better.

Therefore, the dilemma facing Ben Bernanke and his Federal Reserve Board, as well as the other central banks (beginning with the European Central Bank), is not at all comfortable. For years they have shirked their fiduciary responsibility, and now they find themselves in a blind alley. They can either allow the recessionary process to begin now, and with it the healthy and painful readjustment, or they can procrastinate with a "hair of the dog" cure. With the latter, the chances of even more severe stagflation in the not-too-distant future increase exponentially. (This was precisely the error committed following the stock market crash of 1987, an error that led to the inflation at the end of the 1980s and concluded with the sharp recession of 1990-1992.)

Furthermore, the reintroduction of a cheap-credit policy at this stage could only hinder the necessary liquidation of unprofitable investments and company reconversion. It could even wind up prolonging the recession indefinitely, as occurred in the Japanese economy, which, after all possible interventions were tried, ceased to respond to any stimulus involving credit expansion or Keynesian methods.



Hair of the dog cures result in addiction. More credit given to a creditholic economy will only result in a deepening credit addiction that will be harder from which to recover if we can recover at all.

It is in this context of "financial schizophrenia" that we must interpret the latest "shots in the dark" fired by the monetary authorities (who have two totally contradictory responsibilities: both to control inflation and to inject all the liquidity necessary into the financial system to prevent its collapse). Thus, one day the Fed rescues AIG, Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, and the next it allows Lehman Brothers to fail, under the amply justified pretext of "teaching a lesson" and refusing to fuel moral hazard. Finally, in light of the way events were unfolding, the US government announced a $700 billion plan to purchase illiquid (i.e., worthless) assets from the banking system. If the plan is financed by taxes (and not more inflation), it will mean a heavy tax burden on households, precisely when they are least able to bear it.

And both presidential candidates still have you believing that they will lower your taxes.

Under these circumstances, the most appropriate policy would be to liberalize the economy at all levels (especially in the labor market) to permit the rapid reallocation of productive factors (particularly labor) to profitable sectors. Likewise, it is essential to reduce public spending and taxes, in order to increase the available income of heavily indebted economic agents who need to repay their loans as soon as possible.

Economic agents in general and companies in particular can only rehabilitate their finances by cutting costs (especially labor costs) and paying off loans. Essential to this aim are a very flexible labor market and a much more austere public sector. These factors are fundamental if the market is to reveal as quickly as possible the real value of the investment goods produced in error and thus lay the foundation for a healthy, sustained economic recovery in a future that, for the good of all, we hope is not too distant.


If government were to cut taxes and spending, easing the burden on business, we could see a lower rise in unemployment than we will under the current government plan that sets the burden of recovery squarely on the shoulders of the taxpayers and business.

Problem here is this is somewhat dated. We are actually in a rather extreme DEFLATIONARY period since oil busted two months ago. Commodity prices are tanking along with stocks. Gasoline and diesel are down 25% now and corn and wheat are 20% off their highs. Result? Declining prices across the board. Milk in the midwest is now barely above $3.00/gal and gasoline is now $2.89-$2.99 across much of Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska..... Meat prices are even collapsing. Prime New York Strip steak in July was selling for $10.99/lb is now selling for $6.99 or lower in certain Midwest markets... 90% lean hamburger is down to $1.79 from $2.79 just three months ago.

Add to that the dollar is starting to surge again as the crisis hits Asia and Europe and we are finding there is much less faith, under stress, in Yen and Euro than the dollar.

Deflation....which has its own serious consequences.
 
Skull the only thing that bothers me is that I seem to remember you bad mouthing Ron Paul during the primaries. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you weren't exactly pushing him.

And we all know, of course, that he's the only candidate who advocates Austrian economics.

Paul's problems have never been over economic matters. He simply has no clue what America's place in the global community is. And since Presidents are FOREIGN POLICY creature, not domestic ones, that was his downfall. We are over 100 years past the ability or desire to roll up the sidewalks at our shores. We are deeply and irrevocably engaged on the world stage for the duration of our existence as a country. To deny that is borderline INSANITY. And that is Ron Paul.
 
I will third the notion that you are wrong (after Skull Pilot and Kevin_Kennedy). The lack of certain regulations exacerbated the situation. But this was not the root cause. Not even close. The Federal Reserve and its policies are the root cause. Not allowing the free market determine the cost of credit is the root cause.

Brian

Extending that a bit, artificially low interest rates fueled run away buying as just about everybody who wanted to buy a house did. A limited supply was well short of demand and when that happens you get an explosion in price. Add to that, banks were lending 125% of appraised value in many locales which simply threw gasoline on the runaway fire.

Now a lot of people not only were bidding up houses to ridiculous levels they were borrowing against the ridiculous valuations to buy other "stuff". Now that fueled the consumption economy.

That hit it's limit about the same time the gimmicks behind the more risky loans started to hit. Then you have what we have today. It all dries up, foreclosures and all. But builders kept building as well, so now you have an OVERSUPPLY and CRASHING home prices.

When will it stop? When lenders are convinced the value of these homes is REAL and not artificially inflated due to artificial suppression of rates. Unfortunately the reason it all started, continues to be the reason we cannot find the bottom. So long as we keep printing money and pushing ARTIFICIAL stimulus we will continue to not allow housing ( the root commodity in all this) to find it's REAL value. In the end, all these homes we now own, we may just have the bulldoze to get the inventory down so the remaining ones will finally start to sell.

What lenders fear the most is the unknown. They have no idea what the REAL value of anything is now, and until they have confidence of that value, they won't touch it.
 
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Skull the only thing that bothers me is that I seem to remember you bad mouthing Ron Paul during the primaries. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you weren't exactly pushing him.

And we all know, of course, that he's the only candidate who advocates Austrian economics.

I don't remember bad mouthing him. I remember saying he wouldn't win

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/52095-romney-wins-convincing-michigan-victory-2.html

it all depends what you want. I am an independent but i am also a conservative as such I cannot vote Dem and i cannot vote for Mccain because he is NOT a conservative. he has not voted for any tax cuts, he is in bed with the Dems on immigration and amnesty and he co authoed a bill with feinstein that is one of the most egregious attacks on the first amendment i've ever seen. But i am also a huge personal liberties / small government guy so I have to like Paul who is just not electable

that narrows down the most electable candidate that I can vote for to Romney .

Ah ambivalence; the essence of American politics
 
DEREGULATION cause this fella

Keep believing bigger government will help when the truth is things would never have gotten this bad if government kept its nose out of the marlet.

"fatal conceit"

That about sums it up.

I particularly liked that line as well.

Problem here is this is somewhat dated. We are actually in a rather extreme DEFLATIONARY period since oil busted two months ago. Commodity prices are tanking along with stocks. Gasoline and diesel are down 25% now and corn and wheat are 20% off their highs. Result? Declining prices across the board. Milk in the midwest is now barely above $3.00/gal and gasoline is now $2.89-$2.99 across much of Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska..... Meat prices are even collapsing. Prime New York Strip steak in July was selling for $10.99/lb is now selling for $6.99 or lower in certain Midwest markets... 90% lean hamburger is down to $1.79 from $2.79 just three months ago.

Add to that the dollar is starting to surge again as the crisis hits Asia and Europe and we are finding there is much less faith, under stress, in Yen and Euro than the dollar.

Deflation....which has its own serious consequences.

You're right. the deflation we are seeing in very recent and is not showing up on the charts yet. But anecdotally, on the east coast at least, I haven't seen any sharp declines in food prices yet. This certainly is a trend to watch and I'll see if I can dig up some more info on it.

Extending that a bit, artificially low interest rates fueled run away buying as just about everybody who wanted to buy a house did. A limited supply was well short of demand and when that happens you get an explosion in price. Add to that, banks were lending 125% of appraised value in many locales which simply threw gasoline on the runaway fire.

Now a lot of people not only were bidding up houses to ridiculous levels they were borrowing against the ridiculous valuations to buy other "stuff". Now that fueled the consumption economy.

That hit it's limit about the same time the gimmicks behind the more risky loans started to hit. Then you have what we have today. It all dries up, foreclosures and all. But builders kept building as well, so now you have an OVERSUPPLY and CRASHING home prices.

When will it stop? When lenders are convinced the value of these homes is REAL and not artificially inflated due to artificial suppression of rates. Unfortunately the reason it all started, continues to be the reason we cannot find the bottom. So long as we keep printing money and pushing ARTIFICIAL stimulus we will continue to not allow housing ( the root commodity in all this) to find it's REAL value. In the end, all these homes we now own, we may just have the bulldoze to get the inventory down so the remaining ones will finally start to sell.

What lenders fear the most is the unknown. They have no idea what the REAL value of anything is now, and until they have confidence of that value, they won't touch it.

Absolutely correct.
 
While I have read the above, I cannot help but notice this anti-governance attitude continues despite all the evidence to support the argument that this was NOT merely a government screwup.

As in this comment:

We've all seen what happens when economic policies are run at the whims of politicians.

We have ALSO seen what happened when badly regulated capitialism is run at the whim of bankers, have we not?

Can we really afford to ignore the fact that the government was doing the bidding of the banking community, and not the other way around?


The Misis institute is right as rain about describing this problem, and the probable outcomes of this disasterous SNAFU.

But it ALSO seems to entirely gloss over the fact that the BANKS were thrilled to lend money foolishly, too.

They seem not to notice that the FED isn't dominating those poor bankers, folks.

They seem not to notice that the bankers are dominating the FED. (hell, they own the damned thing, don't they?)

The bankers COULDN'T WAIT to create and them lend out NINA loans. They've been doing these foolish loans since at least 1989!

They were falling all over themselves to lend money foolishly and collect their outrageous salaries and bonuses.

I know this for a fact because I was one of those people originating those NINA mortgages..as far back as in 1989.

The FED is a PRIVATE CLUB, folks, one that is not dominated by the government, but quite the other way round.

Presidential appointees are drawn from the very BANKING AND ACADEMIC ECONOMICS COMMUNITY.

Banks weren't forced to lend money, they did so willingly and with reckless disregard for the aggregate effect of a real estate market going south.

Now, how do we know that?

Because those banks DID pressure the RATINGS COMAPNIES to bullshit everyone about the REAL RISKS associated with these dubious bonds created from dubious real estate mortgages that were ORIGINATED BY THE BANKS THEMSELVES.

Hence, seince mortgage-originating BANKS could get that risk OFF their books when they sold that paper to organizations which foisted off that RISK to the bond buyers.

So laying the blame ENTIRELY at the feet of government is sort of silly, don't you think?

It took an acquiesent government entity, (the FED) doing the bidding of the industry (the BANKS) it was supposed to regulate in order to get to this state of affairs to BEGIN WITH.

Banks aren't the victims of this mess, folks. Put that foolish notion out of your minds

The banking community is puppetmaster pulling the FED's strings, not the other way around.
 
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While I have read the above, I cannot help but notice this anti-governance attitude continues despite all the evidence to support the argument that this was NOT merely a government screwup.

As in this comment:



We have ALSO seen what happened when badly regulated capitialism is run at the whim of bankers, have we not?

I don't totally disagree but the government bailing out banks that screwed up is not the answer.

Can we really afford to ignore the fact that the government was doing the bidding of the banking community, and not the other way around?

Sorry this is a long bit. this essay is 29 pages and it talks about government pressure to increase home ownership and the banks short sightedness among other things

http://www.independent.org/pdf/policy_reports/2008-10-03-trainwreck.pdf

The reason is that mortgage underwriting
standards had been undermined by
virtually every branch of the government since the
early 1990s. The government had been attempting
to increase home ownership in the U.S., which had
been stagnant for several decades. In particular, the
government had tried to increase home ownership
among poor and minority Americans. Although a
seemingly noble goal, the tool chosen to achieve this
goal was one that endangered the entire mortgage
enterprise: intentional weakening of the traditional
mortgage-lending standards.

After the government succeeded in weakening
underwriting standards, mortgages seemed to require
virtually no down payment, which is the main
key to the problem, but few restrictions on the size
of monthly payments relative to income, little examination
of credit scores, little examination of
employment history, and so forth also contributed.
This was exactly the government’s goal.
The weakening of mortgage-lending standards
did succeed in increasing home ownership (discussed
in more detail later). As home ownership rates increased
there was self-congratulation all around.

The community of regulators, academic specialists,
and housing activists all reveled in the increase in
home ownership and the increase in wealth brought
about by home ownership. The decline in mortgageunderwriting
standards was universally praised as an
“innovation” in mortgage lending.

The increase in home ownership increased the
price of housing, helping to create a housing “bubble.”
The bubble brought in a large number of speculators
in the form of individuals owning one or two
houses who hoped to quickly resell them at a profit.
Estimates are that one quarter of all home sales were
speculative sales of this nature.

Speculators wanted mortgages with the smallest
down payment and the lowest interest rate. These
would be adjustable-rate mortgages (ARMs), option
ARMs, and so forth. Once housing prices stopped
rising, these speculators tried to get out from under
their investments made largely with other peoples’
money, which is why foreclosures increased mainly
for adjustable-rate mortgages and not for fixed-rate
mortgages, regardless of whether mortgages were
prime or subprime. The rest, as they say, is history.


The Misis institute is right as rain about describing this problem, and the probable outcomes of this disasterous SNAFU.

But it ALSO seems to entirely gloss over the fact that the BANKS were thrilled to lend money foolishly, too.

They seem not to notice that the FED isn't dominating those poor bankers, folks.

They seem not to notice that the bankers are dominating the FED. (hell, they own the damned thing, don't they?)

Yes Ed, I agree the banks are culpable as well. Artifically low interest rates (the Fed should have tightened up the money supply) and relaxed underwriting like the NINA loans are definitely a part of the problem. It's scary funny how bankers couldn't see that this real estate price up was artificial when almost every other Joe could tell you what was going to happen.

But those banks that should have failed were saved by government intervention

The bankers COULDN'T WAIT to create and them lend out NINA loans. They've been doing these foolish loans since at least 1989!

They were falling all over themselves to lend money foolishly and collect their outrageous salaries and bonuses.

I know this for a fact because I was one of those people originating those NINA mortgages..as far back as in 1989.

The FED is a PRIVATE CLUB, folks, one that is not dominated by the government, but quite the other way round.

Presidential appointees are drawn from the very BANKING AND ACADEMIC ECONOMICS COMMUNITY.

True but not many with the same libertarian leanings as the Austrians. I am not saying that banks are not culpable. Clearly they are due their share of the blame and should have reaped the consequences of their actions (failure)

Banks weren't forced to lend money, they did so willingly and with reckless disregard for the aggregate effect of a real estate market going south.

Now, how do we know that?

Because those banks DID pressure the RATINGS COMAPNIES to bullshit everyone about the REAL RISKS associated with these dubious bonds created from dubious real estate mortgages that were ORIGINATED BY THE BANKS THEMSELVES.

Hence, seince mortgage-originating BANKS could get that risk OFF their books when they sold that paper to organizations which foisted off that RISK to the bond buyers.

So laying the blame ENTIRELY at the feet of government is sort of silly, don't you think?

It took an acquiesent government entity, (the FED) doing the bidding of the industry (the BANKS) it was supposed to regulate in order to get to this state of affairs to BEGIN WITH.

Banks aren't the victims of this mess, folks. Put that foolish notion out of your minds

The banking community is puppetmaster pulling the FED's strings, not the other way around.

Again I don't completely disagree with you. I hope I haven't sounded like the banks were victims. many f!@#ed up royally and we, the taxpayers, are now paying for it. I am saying we should have let those banks fail outright and not bailed them out. I think then we would have seen a hasty return to sound lending practices.

I will acknowledge that my own libertarian small government bias does seem to color my remarks and I can see why you may have concluded that I gave the banks a pass here. But Believe me, i think the banks should pay the ultimate price for screwing up. but the government has decided that bank failure is a bad thing.. (sorry there I go again)

The whole mess is something out of pop psychology. The fed and banks were both enablers and co-dependent at the same time. it would have made a great Oprah show.
 
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