Questions.....RE: The Greenhouse Effect

[Toddsterpatriot]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

Do you have proof that back radiation exists? Nope!

Do you have any proof that matter above 0K doesn't radiate in all directions, constantly?

The fact that spontaneous two way energy flow between warm objects and cold objects can not be measured is pretty convincing. You got any actual measurements of energy spontaneously moving from cool objects to warm objects that would contradict every observation and measurement ever made?

The fact that spontaneous two way energy flow between warm objects and cold objects can not be measured is pretty convincing.

So convincing that you're alone in your claims.
So convincing that your position disagrees with Einstein, Bohr, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Will the two hot pieces lose heat faster with the cold piece there?

The two hot pieces always radiate according to their temperatures. The rate of cooling is affected by how much radiation is coming back from their surroundings.

No ian...they radiate according to the difference between their temperatures and the temperatures of their surroundings...unless of course, they are in a theoretical perfect vacuum devoid of other matter.

No ian...they radiate according to the difference between their temperatures and the temperatures of their surroundings..

Matter with a dimmer switch and ESP!
Cool.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Two white hot lengths of steel are taken out of the blast furnace and are left to cool. The sides that face each other cool less quickly.

SSDD says it is because they are not allowed to radiate towards each other. Everyone else says it is because they ARE radiating at each other.

If you put a third piece of cool steel between them, then apparently the hot steel is now allowed to radiate. Bizarre, the third piece controls the radiation from the hot ones.

If you put a third piece of cool steel between them, then apparently the hot steel is now allowed to radiate. Bizarre, the third piece controls the radiation from the hot ones.

Even stranger is that the hot steel throttles the amount of radiation it emits, based on the temperature of the cooler steel, without ever knowing the temperature of the cooler steel, because the cooler steel is not allowed to radiate. If it can't radiate, how does the information about its temperature get transmitted?

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

Weird.

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

It's a mystery. Not as big a mystery as why SSDD thinks matter has a dimmer switch.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona...science thinks that they provide enough energy to account for the temperature of the corona...what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...only you seem to think that..and it appears that you think that because you are unable to apply the term spontaneous to energy movement in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona..

Alfven waves cause the surface to emit photons?
Photons that somehow travel from cooler matter to warmer matter?
Sounds like your waves violate the 2nd Law.

what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...

Interesting. How does science explain the photons from the surface?
Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.
If photons were prevented from leaving the surface, the Sun would appear dark, with the only photons
we could see produced by the corona. Is that the case?

 

[IanC]

Will the two hot pieces lose heat faster with the cold piece there?

The two hot pieces always radiate according to their temperatures. The rate of cooling is affected by how much radiation is coming back from their surroundings.

No ian...they radiate according to the difference between their temperatures and the temperatures of their surroundings...unless of course, they are in a theoretical perfect vacuum devoid of other matter.

Sure, let's go with your hypothetical perfect vacuum.

Now put a Sun in it. The surface must exactly radiate the amount of energy being produced in the core. The first and most basic S-B equation.

Then put another identical Sun in the vacuum, one light year away.

I say they both radiate fully in all directions, all the time. You say the atoms are prohibited from radiating in the ultra small angle that leads to the other Sun. An uncomprehensibly vast number of atoms being controlled somehow to remove a tiny sliver of their possible direction of radiation.

Next, put a drifting cloud of dust between the two Suns. Any potential radiation that would be intercepted by the dust along the line-of-sight between the two Suns is no longer prohibited. The dust is controlling the amount of radiation produced, up to a maximum of the originally prohibited radiation.

Wow! What an extreme amount of complexity involved for what could be simply handled by full radiation all the time without the mysterious prohibitions that only SSDD understands. Hahahaha.

We could also just follow the ultimate end point of the energy being produced by the two Suns. Both methods give the same results. But the increase in entropy is different. And that is the reason why SSDD's version is wrong. It violates the current version of the the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

[IanC]

Let's explore one of the ways entropy is decreased by SSDD's version of the radiation process.

A particle emitting a photon imparts a small amount of momentum with the photon, and the same amount of momentum in the opposite direction for the particle. Similar to a gun recoil.

If two particles exchange a photon back and forth, then both particles end up with two units of momentum away from each other. The radiation pressure is pushing them apart and increasing entropy.

A larger spherical object made up of many particles has equal momentum pressure in all directions. Place a similar object next to it and the two objects will be pushed apart.

SSDD says radiation is prohibited between the objects, which stops the momentum exchange. But the opposite sides are still radiating which causes the objects to be pushed together. An decrease of entropy, which is frowned upon by the SLoT.

 

[jc456]

Two white hot lengths of steel are taken out of the blast furnace and are left to cool. The sides that face each other cool less quickly.

SSDD says it is because they are not allowed to radiate towards each other. Everyone else says it is because they ARE radiating at each other.

If you put a third piece of cool steel between them, then apparently the hot steel is now allowed to radiate. Bizarre, the third piece controls the radiation from the hot ones.

If you put a third piece of cool steel between them, then apparently the hot steel is now allowed to radiate. Bizarre, the third piece controls the radiation from the hot ones.

Even stranger is that the hot steel throttles the amount of radiation it emits, based on the temperature of the cooler steel, without ever knowing the temperature of the cooler steel, because the cooler steel is not allowed to radiate. If it can't radiate, how does the information about its temperature get transmitted?

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

Weird.

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

It's a mystery. Not as big a mystery as why SSDD thinks matter has a dimmer switch.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona...science thinks that they provide enough energy to account for the temperature of the corona...what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...only you seem to think that..and it appears that you think that because you are unable to apply the term spontaneous to energy movement in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona..

Alfven waves cause the surface to emit photons?
Photons that somehow travel from cooler matter to warmer matter?
Sounds like your waves violate the 2nd Law.

what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...

Interesting. How does science explain the photons from the surface?
Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.
If photons were prevented from leaving the surface, the Sun would appear dark, with the only photons
we could see produced by the corona. Is that the case?

Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.

I believe he stated without work. I'm just saying.

 

[jc456]

exactly

DERP!

again, can't read your own quote eh? lazy?

I used the word twice in my quote. Can't differentiate? Stupid?

Well I asked you the original question and you said it was a mystery I give a shit about your deflection. And the smart guy you are can’t follow a straight line! Wow and your shit should matter why?

Well I asked you the original question and you said it was a mystery

It's a mystery why the corona is hotter than the surface.

Any other stupid, nonsensical questions you'd like to ask?
I'll be happy to explain basic physics so you can demonstrate your ignorance again.

It's a mystery why the corona is hotter than the surface.
I asked you why is it a mystery? and you didn't answer.

 

[jc456]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

Do you have proof that back radiation exists? Nope!

Do you have any proof that matter above 0K doesn't radiate in all directions, constantly?

It radiates per the temperature of its surrounding.

 

[jc456]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

The fact that spontaneously two way energy flow between cool objects and warm objects (despite our ability to measure very small amounts of energy) has never been observed or measured is pretty convincing evidence that it doesn't happen...got any actual observed measured evidence that contradicts every observation and measurement ever made? Didn't think so.

Heat causes the charges in materials to move. Moving charges near the surface must radiate independently of any outside conditions. This has been observed, tested and measured time and time again for over 100 years. Your one way energy flow with smart photons totally violates those experiments. You have no explanation for your smart photons.

provide a link to that observed document that shows that.

 

[IanC]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

Do you have proof that back radiation exists? Nope!

Do you have any proof that matter above 0K doesn't radiate in all directions, constantly?

It radiates per the temperature of its surrounding.

No. It always radiates in a relationship to its own temperature. The temperature then changes according to the net energy exchange with it's surroundings.

The only way to decrease radiation is to decrease the temperature. Two identical objects do not stop radiating towards each other, but the radiation is balanced on both sides so it doesn't cause a temperature change.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you put a third piece of cool steel between them, then apparently the hot steel is now allowed to radiate. Bizarre, the third piece controls the radiation from the hot ones.

Even stranger is that the hot steel throttles the amount of radiation it emits, based on the temperature of the cooler steel, without ever knowing the temperature of the cooler steel, because the cooler steel is not allowed to radiate. If it can't radiate, how does the information about its temperature get transmitted?

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

Weird.

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

It's a mystery. Not as big a mystery as why SSDD thinks matter has a dimmer switch.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona...science thinks that they provide enough energy to account for the temperature of the corona...what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...only you seem to think that..and it appears that you think that because you are unable to apply the term spontaneous to energy movement in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona..

Alfven waves cause the surface to emit photons?
Photons that somehow travel from cooler matter to warmer matter?
Sounds like your waves violate the 2nd Law.

what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...

Interesting. How does science explain the photons from the surface?
Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.
If photons were prevented from leaving the surface, the Sun would appear dark, with the only photons
we could see produced by the corona. Is that the case?

Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.

I believe he stated without work. I'm just saying.

And I stated, "He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona"

Maybe you can help him out? LOL!

 

[IanC]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

The fact that spontaneously two way energy flow between cool objects and warm objects (despite our ability to measure very small amounts of energy) has never been observed or measured is pretty convincing evidence that it doesn't happen...got any actual observed measured evidence that contradicts every observation and measurement ever made? Didn't think so.

Heat causes the charges in materials to move. Moving charges near the surface must radiate independently of any outside conditions. This has been observed, tested and measured time and time again for over 100 years. Your one way energy flow with smart photons totally violates those experiments. You have no explanation for your smart photons.

provide a link to that observed document that shows that.

A stark example that involves work rather than heat is an electric turbine. The electricity moves the rotor, or moving the rotor produces electricity. While this uses virtual photons with an added property of force, the mechanism for creating photons is similar.

 

[IanC]

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

It's a mystery. Not as big a mystery as why SSDD thinks matter has a dimmer switch.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona...science thinks that they provide enough energy to account for the temperature of the corona...what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...only you seem to think that..and it appears that you think that because you are unable to apply the term spontaneous to energy movement in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona..

Alfven waves cause the surface to emit photons?
Photons that somehow travel from cooler matter to warmer matter?
Sounds like your waves violate the 2nd Law.

what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...

Interesting. How does science explain the photons from the surface?
Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.
If photons were prevented from leaving the surface, the Sun would appear dark, with the only photons
we could see produced by the corona. Is that the case?

Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.

I believe he stated without work. I'm just saying.

And I stated, "He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona"

Maybe you can help him out? LOL!

We all know that's not going to happen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

DERP!

again, can't read your own quote eh? lazy?

I used the word twice in my quote. Can't differentiate? Stupid?

Well I asked you the original question and you said it was a mystery I give a shit about your deflection. And the smart guy you are can’t follow a straight line! Wow and your shit should matter why?

Well I asked you the original question and you said it was a mystery

It's a mystery why the corona is hotter than the surface.

Any other stupid, nonsensical questions you'd like to ask?
I'll be happy to explain basic physics so you can demonstrate your ignorance again.

It's a mystery why the corona is hotter than the surface.
I asked you why is it a mystery? and you didn't answer.

Why is a mystery a mystery? Hmmmmm....that's a mystery too.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

Do you have proof that back radiation exists? Nope!

Do you have any proof that matter above 0K doesn't radiate in all directions, constantly?

It radiates per the temperature of its surrounding.

It radiates per the temperature of its surrounding.

Because.....dimmer switch!

 

[jc456]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

Do you have proof that back radiation exists? Nope!

Do you have any proof that matter above 0K doesn't radiate in all directions, constantly?

It radiates per the temperature of its surrounding.

No. It always radiates in a relationship to its own temperature. The temperature then changes according to the net energy exchange with it's surroundings.

The only way to decrease radiation is to decrease the temperature. Two identical objects do not stop radiating towards each other, but the radiation is balanced on both sides so it doesn't cause a temperature change.

they radiate based on the surrounding temperature. If the surrounding temperature equals the objects, there is no net change. so no radiation.

 

[SSDD]

No. It always radiates in a relationship to its own temperature. The temperature then changes according to the net energy exchange with it's surroundings.

So you keep saying...except the physical evidence doesn't back you up...we can measure very small amounts of energy but don't seem to be able to measure energy moving spontaneously from cool to warm...Occam says that must mean that it just isn't happening.

 

[SSDD]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

The fact that spontaneously two way energy flow between cool objects and warm objects (despite our ability to measure very small amounts of energy) has never been observed or measured is pretty convincing evidence that it doesn't happen...got any actual observed measured evidence that contradicts every observation and measurement ever made? Didn't think so.

Heat causes the charges in materials to move. Moving charges near the surface must radiate independently of any outside conditions. This has been observed, tested and measured time and time again for over 100 years. Your one way energy flow with smart photons totally violates those experiments. You have no explanation for your smart photons.

provide a link to that observed document that shows that.

A stark example that involves work rather than heat is an electric turbine. The electricity moves the rotor, or moving the rotor produces electricity. While this uses virtual photons with an added property of force, the mechanism for creating photons is similar.

Virtual theoretical particles...you are a constant source of chuckles ian.....I will hand you that.

 

[jc456]

He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes
place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona.

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

why is the surface cooler than the corona?

It's a mystery. Not as big a mystery as why SSDD thinks matter has a dimmer switch.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona...science thinks that they provide enough energy to account for the temperature of the corona...what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...only you seem to think that..and it appears that you think that because you are unable to apply the term spontaneous to energy movement in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The latest hypothesis is Alfven waves...they propagate within the sun at speeds of around 200 kilometers per second and TRANSPORT large amounts of energy from the surface to the corona..

Alfven waves cause the surface to emit photons?
Photons that somehow travel from cooler matter to warmer matter?
Sounds like your waves violate the 2nd Law.

what science doesn't, and never has thought is that energy was moving spontaneously from the surface to the hotter corona...

Interesting. How does science explain the photons from the surface?
Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.
If photons were prevented from leaving the surface, the Sun would appear dark, with the only photons
we could see produced by the corona. Is that the case?

Because, according to you, photons can't move toward matter warmer than the emitter.

I believe he stated without work. I'm just saying.

And I stated, "He's previously said that absorption and emission isn't work, but still refuses to say what work takes place on the Sun's surface which would allow "non-spontaneous" emission of radiation from the
cooler surface toward the hotter corona"

Maybe you can help him out? LOL!

And I believe I stated that if there is work, there is heat. and there is no heat in the atmosphere accept for any convection or conduction. the CO2 molecules do not get warm. if they did, you could show us.

 

[jc456]

Still waiting for that observed measured evidence of spontaneous two way energy flow?

We are all waiting for you to cite research or an appeal to authority or anything to show that vibrating atoms near the surface of a material would stop black body radiation because of an external warmer temperature.

The fact that spontaneously two way energy flow between cool objects and warm objects (despite our ability to measure very small amounts of energy) has never been observed or measured is pretty convincing evidence that it doesn't happen...got any actual observed measured evidence that contradicts every observation and measurement ever made? Didn't think so.

Heat causes the charges in materials to move. Moving charges near the surface must radiate independently of any outside conditions. This has been observed, tested and measured time and time again for over 100 years. Your one way energy flow with smart photons totally violates those experiments. You have no explanation for your smart photons.

provide a link to that observed document that shows that.

A stark example that involves work rather than heat is an electric turbine. The electricity moves the rotor, or moving the rotor produces electricity. While this uses virtual photons with an added property of force, the mechanism for creating photons is similar.

I'm sorry, but i don't see how this correlates to work and heat with regard to CO2 absorbing and emitting?