Question's for RW's on Arizona immigration bill

[Coyote]

How about we build that damned fence

Electrify that damned fence and keep illegals out of our country.

That way no one has to worry about racial profiling. Jeeze.

There are worse things to worry about than illegal aliens.

Yes. Terrorists and drug dealers and anyone else who wants to slip into the country.

The fence works pretty well for Isreal and has for decades. Isreal is smaller but it does work and from what I've read, works very well.

Very debatable.

Fences tend to ruin border economies on both sides, have environmental repercussions and are expensive.

Aside from that I think the fact that we're engaged in two wars, have record high deficits, and still have to get out of a major recession might be a bit more pressing.

I'll agree though about the drug cartel problems and the violence they spawn - the Feds and Mexico have to work together on that one.

 

[xsited1]

View attachment $ObamaAZ.bmp

 

[Lonestar_logic]

That's the problem with living in a free and open society. Personally, I'd rather risk illegals living in our country (most of whom tend to be law abiding otherwise) than have my rights and freedoms curtailed based upon my appearance. I shouldn't have to have documentation at hand at all times unless I am driving where the law requires a drivers license. I should not have to do anything any different than any other law abiding citizen.

In Texas anytime your asked to identify yourself by an officer you must oblige or face the consequences.

Let say it's 3 am your walking down the road minding your own business not knowing there has been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood, a cop stops you and asked for some identification, what do you do?

Never happened. But then again, it's unlikely they would have reasonable cause to arrest me simply for failing to produce ID without other suspicious behavior (like a sack of stuff and a furtive expression).

Arizona's law allows for a person to be arrested and held in jail for failing to provide proper papers and nothing more.

No one said you would be arrested, however you would be detained until it can be determined who the fuck you are. Have you read our federal immigration laws?

Let me assist you.

A United States Permanent Resident Card, known informally as a green card (due to the color of some earlier variants), is an identification card attesting to the permanent resident status of an alien in the United States of America

The card must be in the possession of the U.S. permanent resident at all times. This means that the permanent resident must have a currently valid card on the person at all times and be able to show it to a United States Citizenship and Immigration Services officer, if requested

 

[keee keee]

I would not be offended if a cop asked me if I was a legal citizen. I have nothing to hide I am an legal American and dam proud of it!!!!It is about time this is happening. If I go to another country and a cop askes me to see my passport or legal papers I wouldn't give a dam. It is their country and I HAVE NO RIGHTS IN OTHER PEOPLES COUNTRY!!!! So I do as I am told. I am a visitor in someone elses country so I abide by their laws, or would be expected to be told to leave. What really offends me is that I am not asked to see my papers and others when we are voting!!! People who vote illegally wipe out my legal vote and rip off every other legal voter of their vote and services which we all pay for in our taxes. My taxes should only be used to support LEGAL AMERICANS. I am sorry their countries are all screwed up but we have immigration laws to allow only so many and what kind of people in to our country. If you want to come here fill out the right paperwork and come here LEGALLY!!!!!! In the meanwhile fix your corrupt countries and politicians and wait your turn in line!!!! When you come here legally you will be treated like a friend with open arms and welcomed by all Americans and if you come here ILLEGALLY you will be treated like a criminal, which you are!!!!! Being an American means you follow our laws all laws not the ones you chose to obey!!!!

 

[keee keee]

I am waiting for a liberal to call me a racist or something. Truth hurts? the cops use to enforce vagrancy laws and you had to have some ID to show proof of your residency. The good old days!!!!! Ever see the old Rambo movie. he was asked to leave cause he had no papers!!!! Come here legally and follow our laws and you are welcome. If not hit the road back to were you came from. Don't let the gate door bang you on the head when leaving. By the way what ever happened to the promised border fence? Obama quit building it? to busy doing thing other than what the citizens want!!!!We want immigration laws followed not state run medical insurance. Think of how fucked up Obama care will be if they run it like they run our borders. now we will be insuring the mexicans left in Mexico!!! on top of the illegals already here steeling medical services and not paying a dime for it!!!!!

 

[The Rabbi]

There are worse things to worry about than illegal aliens.

Yes. Terrorists and drug dealers and anyone else who wants to slip into the country.

The fence works pretty well for Isreal and has for decades. Isreal is smaller but it does work and from what I've read, works very well.

Very debatable.

Fences tend to ruin border economies on both sides, have environmental repercussions and are expensive.

Never mind that Israel is the size of New Jersey and its borders are close to major population centers. The border with Mexico is many times that size and often in very remote areas.

 

[Murf76]

That's the problem with living in a free and open society. Personally, I'd rather risk illegals living in our country (most of whom tend to be law abiding otherwise) than have my rights and freedoms curtailed based upon my appearance. I shouldn't have to have documentation at hand at all times unless I am driving where the law requires a drivers license. I should not have to do anything any different than any other law abiding citizen.

In Texas anytime your asked to identify yourself by an officer you must oblige or face the consequences.

Let say it's 3 am your walking down the road minding your own business not knowing there has been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood, a cop stops you and asked for some identification, what do you do?

Tell him to pound sand.
A cop has no right to ask for ID from someone just walking along.

Actually.... it kind of depends. It depends on what state you're in, and whether or not an officer believes there's enough reasonable suspicion of wrong-doing to detain you.

Many states, including Arizona, do have "Stop and Identify" statutes, which require citizens to truthfully identify themselves. Not on casual contact, of course, but as a matter of detainment or arrest.
Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arizona is just taking it a step further and saying that immigration status can be a matter of "reasonable cause". The law specifically forbids racial profiling, and "stop and identify" has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

Like many Americans, I do have a certain revulsion when it comes to "show-me-your-papers" type legislation. But frankly, the border states have got a big problem down there and the federal government has FAILED to properly address the matter, chiefly for political reasons. The new Arizona law doesn't seem to be that big of a deal... that is, UNLESS you're an illegal alien, an employer who hires illegal aliens, or a sanctuary city.

I'm no lawyer, but I think it will stand.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Tom Tancredo says the bill goes too far.

Yes, that Tom Tancredo.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Want to know how to fix the border? Simple.........

First, understand that the unemployment rate for returning Iraq vets is around 16 percent.

Next, understand that Predator and the weaponized Reaper drones are capable of patrolling a 250 mile area EACH. That is 4 UAV's per 1,000 miles.

Next, set up border stations every 25 miles, staffed by a crew of 10 agents. The agents could be returning Iraq vets (who incidentally, because of the war, DO know police procedure to a certain degree), who could use the job, and already have the skills sets.

The border stations would be manned 24/7, with a crew on standby for a week at a time, and then 2 weeks off. 30 people/station for permanent crew.

When the Predator drones see something going on? The closest station is notified and they go take action. The Predator drone could also keep tabs on the people so they can't hide.

After sealing the borders, and verifying they are secure, tell everyone in this country that if they wish, all they have to do is go get a VALID SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER and that would be their citizenship registration.

One time only. After that? You've gotta go through normal channels. That way, everyone who wanted to stay here could, and since the borders are already secure, immigration reform could work.

But.......you've gotta secure the borders first.

 

[logical4u]

I am not sure of the statutes seeing I havn't read the bill for myself. But Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer said this bill gives local police the authority to pull anyone over on the suspicion of them being in the country illegal..That is racial profiling honey.
Here is what I was reffering to in respect to citizenship papers:
Arizona immigration law signed - Omaha.com

I'm just trying to figure out where these are written into federal law..

It's news to you that non-citizen legal residents are required by law to carry their green card with them everywhere?

Good point--but the issue is--someone that is born here--is not required to carry a certified birth certificate. Maybe--they're going to have to change that? It wasn't too long ago we were talking about national I.D. cards--much like passports.

Your 'new' national ID will be assigned to you via the health care bill. All your medical information will be available for those with access to that number.

 

[logical4u]

Yup.....ten to one it's going to end up being skin color and accent.....

It could be all kinds of things, including behavior.
But to charges of profiling, so what? What is wrong with profiling?

Read the history of Nazi Germany and WWII. You'll see what is wrong with profiling.

So when a murderer is running armed and dangerous, the police should get on the news and state: there is a living creature that is armed and dangerous, we would like to tell you what they look like, but that might be profiling, so we can't. Go to your homes and lock yourselves inside, after years of searching every person we see outside their homes (because we can't go according to the description, that would be profiling, and yes we are charging the person that gave the description with a 'hate crime' for paying such close attention, the only motivation would be 'hate'), we might catch this creature, and it will be safe to leave your homes at that time.

Grow up, it is perfectly acceptable to profile, we do it all the time:
we see a group of people that are obviously consciencely altered due to drugs and doing things they would not do if they were not in that condition (we profile and avoid them)
we see a bunch of zealous Christians preaching to anyone that comes close (we profile and avoid them)
we see a group of kids behaving in an obnoxious manner above the street (we profile and avoid them)
we see people in an alley and are not sure how many there are (we profile and avoid them)

If people are in this country illegally and breaking the law, the law enforcement officials cannot get a legal ID, they should be able to send them back to the country of their origin. If you want to call it profiling and pretend it is bad, okay. For those of us that PAY a lot of taxes, we feel better knowing that now (because the feds chose not to enforce the federal law), state officials can and will enforce the law on a state level.

 

[logical4u]

There are worse things to worry about than illegal aliens.

Yes. Terrorists and drug dealers and anyone else who wants to slip into the country.

The fence works pretty well for Isreal and has for decades. Isreal is smaller but it does work and from what I've read, works very well.

You know how much money it would take to build a fence 1,969 miles long? ANd they just go over or under it.

A lot less than the health care plan? Chances are the ones that made it over would be healthy and not carrying communicable diseases.

 

[logical4u]

I've seen alot of conservatives (here and in real life,) say the new bill passed in Arizona that will allow racial profiling, is just "enforcing the law."

1. Where the hell is it written in our law to allow police to pull someone over on suspicion of them being illegal aliens? (AKA, racial profiling.)
2. Where the hell is written into our law that it is a crime not to carry your citizenship papers with you at all times.

Please answer me this..as I'm a bit confused.

Answer me this: How do you tell the crimminals, the diseased, the parasite carrying, and those that would do citizens in this country harm, from those that 'just want to support their families' when it comes to ILLEGAL aliens?
Each time the 'gov' has wanted to reform immigration in the last fifty years, the problems have been made worse, no improvement, more problems. Keeping our borders secure is a DUTY the Constitution names as belonging to the Federal government. Maybe if the federal politicians concentrated on what the Constitution assigned them to do, instead of inventing power-grabbing games, this would not be a problem.

 

[The Rabbi]

Want to know how to fix the border? Simple.........

First, understand that the unemployment rate for returning Iraq vets is around 16 percent.

Next, understand that Predator and the weaponized Reaper drones are capable of patrolling a 250 mile area EACH. That is 4 UAV's per 1,000 miles.

Next, set up border stations every 25 miles, staffed by a crew of 10 agents. The agents could be returning Iraq vets (who incidentally, because of the war, DO know police procedure to a certain degree), who could use the job, and already have the skills sets.

The border stations would be manned 24/7, with a crew on standby for a week at a time, and then 2 weeks off. 30 people/station for permanent crew.

When the Predator drones see something going on? The closest station is notified and they go take action. The Predator drone could also keep tabs on the people so they can't hide.

After sealing the borders, and verifying they are secure, tell everyone in this country that if they wish, all they have to do is go get a VALID SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER and that would be their citizenship registration.

One time only. After that? You've gotta go through normal channels. That way, everyone who wanted to stay here could, and since the borders are already secure, immigration reform could work.

But.......you've gotta secure the borders first.

And we know that'll work because the border between Iran and Iraq is so secure, or between Iraq and Syria, right?
No, for all the lack of civil liberties concerns in Iraq those borders are very porous and that has been a real problem.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Predator drones combined with border patrol and Iraq vets will do the trick dude.

Why won't a wall work? Because we don't have enough money to build one all the way across.

Why will an electronic wall with Predators work? Because they can cover a 250 mile radius area.

By the way, for all you idiots that think this fucked up law in nAZi country is good, lemmie ask you one question, one that was asked of the AZ governor...........

What exactly does an illegal immigrant look or act like?

Take your time.......she didn't know either, but did admit she didn't know.

 

[The Rabbi]

Predator drones combined with border patrol and Iraq vets will do the trick dude.

Why won't a wall work? Because we don't have enough money to build one all the way across.

Why will an electronic wall with Predators work? Because they can cover a 250 mile radius area.

By the way, for all you idiots that think this fucked up law in nAZi country is good, lemmie ask you one question, one that was asked of the AZ governor...........

What exactly does an illegal immigrant look or act like?

Take your time.......she didn't know either, but did admit she didn't know.

Because predator drones and Iraqi veterans did such a good job sealing the borders of Iraq,right?

 

[Murf76]

Predator drones combined with border patrol and Iraq vets will do the trick dude.

Why won't a wall work? Because we don't have enough money to build one all the way across.

Why will an electronic wall with Predators work? Because they can cover a 250 mile radius area.

By the way, for all you idiots that think this fucked up law in nAZi country is good, lemmie ask you one question, one that was asked of the AZ governor...........

What exactly does an illegal immigrant look or act like?

Take your time.......she didn't know either, but did admit she didn't know.

Unless you make being an illegal alien actionable, in and of itself... there's no "reasonable suspicion" to make a stop. It's clearer if you open the link I posted earlier. It's only Wiki, but it's succinct enough. The contact with police can't be casual, there has to be cause to "detain". So, if Home Depot calls and says, "we've got a bunch of illegals out in the parking lot", there's reasonable cause to detain. Or if a neighbor calls in and says that the house two doors down has a suspicious number of "revolving-door" type occupants and they think it's got to do with coyotes, it's actionable.

In order for local police to investigate, illegal status has to be actionable on its own.

Sure, the border needs to be sealed, particularly given the terrorist threat, and modern technology can play a role in that. In population dense areas though, fences ARE decreasing illegal immigration activity. But... it's not enough to simply police the border. We can cut down on the numbers of incursions by sending a stronger message, decreasing the work load for border agents.

Don't forget that people die crossing that border. There are many ways we can give them less incentive to do it, and stiffer state laws are one of them.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

In the AZ law, as I stated yesterday, it clearly says that the police MUST have already stopped you for an infraction or suspicion of committing an infraction BEFORE they can challenge you on your citizenship.

This law will stand until Obama gets off his skinny duff and seals the borders like he promised in the election!!!!

 

[Zander]

I find it odd that anyone would protest against enforcing the law of the land. The Arizona law complies with all federal regulations and prohibits racial profiling. This is a good start, now we need to make it a felony to hire illegal aliens. If the jobs dry up, they'll stay home or come here the way my grandparents came - LEGALLY.

PS - for those who argue this is a "federal issue" - Did anyone complain when California adopted tougher standards for automobiles? Isn't that Federal jurisdiction?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I find it odd that anyone would protest against enforcing the law of the land. The Arizona law complies with all federal regulations and prohibits racial profiling. This is a good start, now we need to make it a felony to hire illegal aliens. If the jobs dry up, they'll stay home or come here the way my grandparents came - LEGALLY.

PS - for those who argue this is a "federal issue" - Did anyone complain when California adopted tougher standards for automobiles? Isn't that Federal jurisdiction?

People also forget to mention that Governor Brewer accompanied her signature with an executive order requiring special training for law enforcement officers to enforce this new law WITHOUT profiling or violation of civil rights. We are not simply turning cops loose to apply this law however they see fit.