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Mr.Conley

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Alright, here's a question for you guys.

Since the 1970s, the energy cost of a refrigerator was about 2.4 kW/h a day. Since then that figure has fallen by a factor of about 4, to about .6kW/h a day and reducing our electricity generation needs by about 40 Gigawatts. As you know, what with rising oil prices and the blackouts this summer we are in a bit of an energy crunch. Would you be alright if the government went in and changed the regulations on residential refrigerators and required that all new refrigerators built and sold in the United States could not consume more than 400 watts a day? The technology already exists to go under that, and many refrigerators already on the market do, but by requiring the reduction we'd end up saving a lot of energy that would have otherwise probably have been imported from overseas or Canada as natural gas, increasing our foriegn energy dependency and CO2 emissions. Do you think this would be just?
 

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Alright, here's a question for you guys.

Since the 1970s, the energy cost of a refrigerator was about 2.4 kW/h a day. Since then that figure has fallen by a factor of about 4, to about .6kW/h a day and reducing our electricity generation needs by about 40 Gigawatts. As you know, what with rising oil prices and the blackouts this summer we are in a bit of an energy crunch. Would you be alright if the government went in and changed the regulations on residential refrigerators and required that all new refrigerators built and sold in the United States could not consume more than 400 watts a day? The technology already exists to go under that, and many refrigerators already on the market do, but by requiring the reduction we'd end up saving a lot of energy that would have otherwise probably have been imported from overseas or Canada as natural gas, increasing our foriegn energy dependency and CO2 emissions. Do you think this would be just?
I assume the regulations would be presented under the auspices of protecting Americas' national intersts?
vital interests?
 

dilloduck

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If you generalized. I just want to talk about this specific topic right now though. What do you think?
Limit refridgerators to only super efficient ones? Guess I would have to know all the consequences You own stock in them or what?
 
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Mr.Conley

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No, though I might look into it. The major consequences would probably be this.
1. No inefficient residential refrigerators for purchase.
2. Some factories would have to retool some of their assembly lines.
3. Some suppliers would have to shift their production as well.
4. We will in the longterm save several gigawatts of electricity, thereby reducing our natural gas, coal, and, too a lesser extent, oil dependency.
5. Possible unknown consequences
 

dilloduck

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No, though I might look into it. The major consequences would probably be this.
1. No inefficient residential refrigerators for purchase.
2. Some factories would have to retool some of their assembly lines.
3. Some suppliers would have to shift their production as well.
4. We will in the longterm save several gigawatts of electricity, thereby reducing our natural gas, coal, and, too a lesser extent, oil dependency.
5. Possible unknown consequences
Isn't the bottom line here that the government is telling corporations what kind of refrigerators they have to make and by default telling Individuals what kind they must buy?
 
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Mr.Conley

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Yes, that's what has always disturbed me about regulations, but I think that the benefits here outweigh the costs. We already have regulations on energy efficiency on numerous appliances dating back to Nixon, and I genuinely believe that they do "limit" freedom, they are responsible and for the betterment of the nation.
 

dilloduck

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Yes, that's what has always disturbed me about regulations, but I think that the benefits here outweigh the costs. We already have regulations on energy efficiency on numerous appliances dating back to Nixon, and I genuinely believe that they do "limit" freedom, they are responsible and for the betterment of the nation.
Double standards again. People will fight for thier right to burn a flag and at the same time tell you what kind of refigerator you have to purchase. The absurdity gives strong suspicion to other agendas driving the "protectors of civil rights".
 
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Mr.Conley

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I would argue that refrigerator efficiency standards are different since they can have a significant impact not just on yourself but everyone around you. Sure, a single refrigerator consuming 600 watts instead of 400 isn't going to do much, but when you multiply that number by 50 or 100 million, then it adds up.
 
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Mr.Conley

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In theory, you can argue that ANY government intervention is unjust (which in theory I agree with), but you do need some sort of standards. Life's a lot easier when everyone uses English measuring units. Sure, in theory, it is unjust that the government should have the right to impose the standard, but having everyone using differing systems gets extremely annoying. Some standardization IS good, and I think refrigeration standards would be a benign positive.
 

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No matter what the percieved 'benefits,' the erosion of individual rights in the name of some greater good is never a good thing. Who decides which good is greater? What happens when you're in the minority in claiming that the elimination of yet another right is not beneficial? The problem is that people who propose things like this think individual rights are derived from the government, when, according to the Declaration of Independance, the founding document of our country, they are derived from something higher. As such, the government has no right to take those rights away. Whether it's flag-burning, gun ownership, or owning inefficient appliances, the government has no business infringing on the rights of the individual.

On a side note, America has never been the same since the government required all toilets to be 'low flow.'
 

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On a final note, you shouldn't need a nanny state to get people to buy efficient refridgerators. They pay for themselves. Leave the state out of it.

Oh, and there's no rule that says everyone has to use English. Plenty of people use metric. English is so common, though, because it's what people grew up with and are more likely to recognize.
 
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Mr.Conley

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Actually the Congress has the right. It's in the Constitution.
Article 1: Section 8:
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures"

I remember reading about how they tried to change it to metric in the 70s and everyone hated it so they changed it back.
 
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Mr.Conley

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Hobbit said:
On a final note, you shouldn't need a nanny state to get people to buy efficient refridgerators. They pay for themselves. Leave the state out of it.
You know, in so many ways I totally agree with you, but I also think people are mostly idiots (or at least don't know too much about refrigerators), and that the government should "provide for the general welfare" in some manner.

I'm very conflicted on this subject.
 

dilloduck

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You know, in so many ways I totally agree with you, but I also think people are mostly idiots (or at least don't know too much about refrigerators), and that the government should "provide for the general welfare" in some manner.

I'm very conflicted on this subject.
I think it's more than just you who are conflcted. Maybe the biggest division is our country right now lies with whether people are more concerned about individual rights or the common good. Are we a mass of individuals all fighting for what we think we have coming to us or are we citizens of a country that's striving for everyone to have a piece of the pie? I'm willing to sacrifice some lower order freedoms for the benefits that come from my fellow citizens being albe to get by and be content.
It doesn't have to come in the form of pure socialism or totalitarianism. People go to extremes to make a point and are too proud to back off of them a bit to make things tolerable for all.
 

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