Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[hobelim]

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that if scripture is true then because you worship a human being as if he was a god, and teach others to do the same, you are under the condemnation of he who truly is God, consigned to destruction, and incapable of perceiving your error much less doing anything about it..

The truth is the more you seem to proceed towards God and his kingdom according to your unrestrained imagination because of your open defiance of the divine commands and dedication to idolatry the more you recede from God and his kingdom in actuality.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that if scripture is true then because you worship a human being as if he was a god, and teach others to do the same, you are under the condemnation of he who truly is God, consigned to destruction, and incapable of perceiving your error much less doing anything about it..

The truth is the more you seem to proceed towards God and his kingdom according to your unrestrained imagination because of your open defiance of the divine commands and dedication to idolatry the more you recede from God and his kingdom in actuality.

I haven't seen this many contractions since the last time I read the Nicene creed.

 

[hobelim]

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that if scripture is true then because you worship a human being as if he was a god, and teach others to do the same, you are under the condemnation of he who truly is God, consigned to destruction, and incapable of perceiving your error much less doing anything about it..

The truth is the more you seem to proceed towards God and his kingdom according to your unrestrained imagination because of your open defiance of the divine commands and dedication to idolatry the more you recede from God and his kingdom in actuality.

I haven't seen this many contractions since the last time I read the Nicene creed.

You do have my condolences.

And some people don't believe in the wisdom and warnings of bronze age goat herders about the dangers of being gullible and losing your rational mind in exchange for a pocket full of delusional fantasies and religious flotsam..

Imagine that!

 

[HaShev]

Before Abraham I am can be easily explained tyronweaver has been explained on other threads but since you may have missed it here goes once again.... Wink wink...The Hebrew Scriptures exsisted long before your group came along and breaking the commandments of Deutoronomy where you can neither add or delete to the scriptures your group wrote your logos or word Jesus and the New Testament and added it and placed it with the Hebrew Scriptures before Abraham was mentioned and then sneakily claimed Before Abraham I am the story of the stones was added in to give your Jesus a breathing persona since he only exsisted in your book and no where else...wink wink...

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.

It only adds credibility in that the warnings became accurate and fulfilled when it talked about the fallen imposter messiah the son of perdition as an image of a man that would be lifted higher then God.

 

[shimon]

More then credibility to the warnings...It took the members of the world multiple wars deaths and destructions not to mention the introduction of Satan's Sabbath ( Satan meaningadversary.... Rome and all her offsprings)... Yup just like Rome Tyrone tries to be a " weaver" of deceit and deception like they the ones who gave us their logos or word in the form of Jesus and the new testament have been all through these centuries of lies and deceits...

 

[kjw47]

So where was mankind who died the previous 4000 years before Jesus lived??? You are taught a spirit is in all mortals--where were their spirits if that is truth???Since none were raised from the dead prior to Jesus.

They eked out their existence through labor, the sweat of their brow, THINKING, only producing thorns and thistles for all of their days until they died physical deaths, then the judgment. People who are not judged worthy of the resurrection in this life are judged according to their words and deeds upon their physical death as it has always been. Some proceed to everlasting life, some do not.

By teaching people how to obtain the life promised for obedience to the law Jesus made it possible for all people who act on his teaching to escape judgement by passing from death to eternal life in this world. People who live righteous lives and die righteous deaths are immediately received into an eternal abode - a permanent existence.

Show me where Jesus said your first statement

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die." John 11:25-27

Then how come they all died?

According to revelation--the resurrection does not occur until after Har-mageddon.

How come they all died? LOL. Everyone dies. Human beings have been subject to the birth and death of the body like all forms of life have been ever since life first appeared on this planet. Everything must be this way. You should rather ask why Adam and Eve continued to live physical lives even though God assured them that they would die in the very day that they defied his command. The obvious answer is that The Death consequent to sin has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the body dying. It follows then that the resurrection has absolutely nothing whatever to do with a dead body coming back to life and eternal life has nothing whatever to do with physical immortality

According to revelation there are two resurrections. The dead in christ are supposed to be the first to rise.

What are you waiting for? Permission from your superiors? I hate to break the news to you but the dead rising from the unmarked graves and elaborately decorated tombs that they have spent their entire lives filling with well intentioned corpses like yourself would be the last thing that they would want to actually happen at this particular space in time in spite of all of their blubbering about Jesus is coming.

God didn't say on the very day( a day to a mortal) it was one of his days=1000 years as a day to God,. 2Peter 3:8)

Yes 2 ressurections--- First, the anointed=the little flock( Luke 12:32) the bride of Christ= 144,000 bought from the earth( rev 14:3)-- bought by the blood of Jesus--the 2nd resurrection does not occur until post Har-mageddon--where Jesus and the 144,000 will judge the rest of the ressurected ones who are on earth.

 

[kjw47]

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

God's word a lie???? when it clearly states Jehovah is Jesus Christ.
That Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Thee Jehovah of JW doctrine Clearly states in first two chapters of Rev. that Jehovah died.
1:8“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”f says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty
1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the Firsto and the Last,p
1:18 and the living one,q and I became dead,r but look! I am living forever and ever,s and I have the keys of death and of the G8“And to the angel of the
2:8 And congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’l who became dead and came to life a


A quickening spirit is a physical body that doesn't have blood running through the veins. It has something else. 1Cor. 15:35-36 says a person who is quickened has a body.
1Cor.15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed His own body.
Phillipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, That it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body....
Rev.22:4 And they shall see his face
Rev.21:3 And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He shall dwell with them....(2Cor.5:1-2,4
So Jesus administered with the apostles for 40 days. Was he a spirit then or did he have a body of flesh and bones? When the Angles testified that He would return in like manner as He ascended. What was he ascending with"


Now does the Bible contradict itself or is the JW religion false. Or....is it worse than false?

Your misinterpretation is what is false. 3 speak in Revelation--Jehovah, Jesus and John. Truth only gets revealed through Jesus' real teachers to share at the proper time.
Jesus said--Hallowed be thy( Father) name= YHWH(Jehovah)--- Jesus is not the Father. The Father is Jesus' God and Jesus' real teachers teach that fact--Paul, Peter and John did.

Before Abraham was I Am...
Do you think they just took up stones to have a rock throwing contest?

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham---Jesus answered that question that is all. Teachers of darkness twist it just like the Pharisees twisted it.
I am that I am is not even the correct translating of the Hebrew statement made in the ot. Making the term I am --null and void to begin with. Jesus answered a question that is all.

Ya, I've read the this passage in the green bible and you guys slaughtered it. Tell me, why is it you guys add to, or delete from; passages in the bible that specifically call into question Jesus's diety.
Now I could see it if it was some mundane passage. but it sure seams like it's the passages that relate to Jesus's Diety that you guys slaughter.

The slaughtering of the bible was accomplished by the great apostasy( 2Thess 2:3) centuries ago-- at the councils held because they didn't know truth, so they made it up--- They added pagan things into the two holidays they created( Christmas and Easter)-- they made sure all the originals were gone--they wouldn't allow anyone to read the bible Except clergy for nearly 1000 years after the councils--no one had a clue then--once they allowed translating, mortals could see how full of crap they were and ran and started more unknowing trinity based religions. They never got it right because translations were filled with error to fit false council teachings.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Actually the NT adds credibility to the OT, But you fail to accept as scripture what your mind cannot grasp.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that if scripture is true then because you worship a human being as if he was a god, and teach others to do the same, you are under the condemnation of he who truly is God, consigned to destruction, and incapable of perceiving your error much less doing anything about it..

The truth is the more you seem to proceed towards God and his kingdom according to your unrestrained imagination because of your open defiance of the divine commands and dedication to idolatry the more you recede from God and his kingdom in actuality.

I haven't seen this many contractions since the last time I read the Nicene creed.

You do have my condolences.

And some people don't believe in the wisdom and warnings of bronze age goat herders about the dangers of being gullible and losing your rational mind in exchange for a pocket full of delusional fantasies and religious flotsam..

Imagine that!

I assume that you are Jewish, but I have no way of knowing.
If that's the case; why aren't you still sacrificing animals

 

[hadit]

There's no scriptural evidence of that!!!!

1Peter 3:18--- put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
Rev 6--he receives his crown.

Read the next verse:

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same,

24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. If He was only spirit, it would have still been there. You do know, don't you, that Jesus' body was dead for a while? As I noted before, it was during that time that he preached to those who had died before. He was then resurrected and His body was transformed.

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

Except that He was seen by multiple people at multiple times after His resurrection in His resurrected body.

 

[hadit]

Actually, no. He presented His physically resurrected body to His disciples, eating with them, allowing them to touch His hands and His side to demonstrate it really was Him.

The first day outside the tomb--Mary didn't recognize Jesus because he was not in his original body. He appeared behind a locked door--physical bodies cannot do that. But he can appear at will in his original body like he did with Thomas.

So, IOW, He is in His resurrected body, and in the resurrection, we will be like Him. There is no need for separate bodies at all.

144,000 are [promised heaven--Rev 14:3--bought from the earth. These are the little flock( Luke 12:32) the bride of Christ. There isn't a single passage that teaches the great multitude go to heaven. But instead received this promise from Jesus--Matt 5:5--Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. I would advise to believe Jesus.

Of course. His saints will reign with Him, thus inheriting the earth. I do believe Jesus.

From 2 Timothy 2:

If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.

From Romans 6:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Only--144,000 are bought from the earth.

For that one specific purpose, to witness of Christ through the time after the Church is removed.

 

[hadit]

He was seen repeatedly by multiple people at the same time. Not a dream.

Exactly like in Ezekiel, the details and circumstances of each visitation makes it impossible that they were truthful eyewitness accounts of anything but a dream.

Dead people do not materialize and dematerialize in crowded locked rooms except in dreams.

Of course they don't. Jesus isn't dead any more, remember? He is in His resurrected body. No, you don't get 500 people to see the same person at the same time in a dream.

The subject of the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after physical death, it is about entry into a new existence after spiritual death while still living in a physical body.

Just like the story of the transfiguration is about what was seen during a dream the appearances of Jesus after his crucifixion were eyewitness accounts of what was seen and heard during dreams.

Nonsense. Jesus was seen simultaneously by multiple people at multiple times, on one occasion more than 500 at once. 500 people do not have the same dream at the same time in which they all see, hear, and touch the same person. In order to insist otherwise, you have to completely discount the Biblical record, in which case you're no longer discussing what the Bible says.

Lazarus was not physically dead when he came out of the tomb and neither were they physically dead those who came to life when they heard Jesus preach while they were still in the grave.

Lazarus was indeed physically dead, had been for 4 days and the people didn't want to open the tomb because of the stench given off by his decaying body.

Jesus who was living under an ISIS style compulsory observance of a literal interpretation and application of Mosaic law compared the Pharisees and their beliefs and practices to whitewashed tombs and unmarked graves.

One does not have to throw their rational mind in the garbage and deny truths about reality to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Basically, you are insisting that the God who created the universe and all of its physical laws is not greater than His own creation. That doesn't make any sense.

Good job in this thread on the theology and context of the verses cited. Apparently the influence of all that Gnostic gibberish promoted by the Bauer School and his fans like Paegels is more widespread than I thought.

Any thoughts on the premise that the authors of John and Revelations were converted Pharisees? A different topic than this one, so probably another thread.

It would not really surprise me, given that a Pharisee who converted to Christianity would be an extremely powerful witness for Christ. Paul was one.

 

[kjw47]

1Peter 3:18--- put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
Rev 6--he receives his crown.

Read the next verse:

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits

Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same,

24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. If He was only spirit, it would have still been there. You do know, don't you, that Jesus' body was dead for a while? As I noted before, it was during that time that he preached to those who had died before. He was then resurrected and His body was transformed.

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

Except that He was seen by multiple people at multiple times after His resurrection in His resurrected body.

There is only a single instance. The story of Thomas. How do you explain he was unrecognizable outside the tomb on the first day? How do you explain him appearing behind a locked door?

 

[kjw47]

The first day outside the tomb--Mary didn't recognize Jesus because he was not in his original body. He appeared behind a locked door--physical bodies cannot do that. But he can appear at will in his original body like he did with Thomas.

So, IOW, He is in His resurrected body, and in the resurrection, we will be like Him. There is no need for separate bodies at all.

144,000 are [promised heaven--Rev 14:3--bought from the earth. These are the little flock( Luke 12:32) the bride of Christ. There isn't a single passage that teaches the great multitude go to heaven. But instead received this promise from Jesus--Matt 5:5--Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. I would advise to believe Jesus.

Of course. His saints will reign with Him, thus inheriting the earth. I do believe Jesus.

From 2 Timothy 2:

If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.

From Romans 6:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Only--144,000 are bought from the earth.

For that one specific purpose, to witness of Christ through the time after the Church is removed.

No, these are to sit on thrones as kings and priests alongside Jesus during his millennial reign as Gods appointed king.
The word Church is a mistranslation in the bible--In Rev Jesus spoke to 7 congregations( body of members) not to a building( church)

 

[tyroneweaver]

Read the next verse: Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same, If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. If He was only spirit, it would have still been there. You do know, don't you, that Jesus' body was dead for a while? As I noted before, it was during that time that he preached to those who had died before. He was then resurrected and His body was transformed.

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

Except that He was seen by multiple people at multiple times after His resurrection in His resurrected body.

There is only a single instance. The story of Thomas. How do you explain he was unrecognizable outside the tomb on the first day? How do you explain him appearing behind a locked door?

Why would we need to explain it??? I just believe at it is written
Mary Magdalene certainly recognized Him. Called Him her Lord and God.
Luke 24:36-39 Seams to have taken place in the upper room. He had a body of Flesh and Bones here, yet he suddenly appeared behind closed doors.
Zech sez they will look upon him whom they have pierced, as well as beholding His wounds. This doesn't seam to coincide with what the Jehovah Witness's teach.

 

[hobelim]

God didn't say on the very day( a day to a mortal) it was one of his days=1000 years as a day to God,. 2Peter 3:8)

That is just plain silly. If God told me that I would physically die 1000 years from now I would say thank you very much.

God did say that they would die in the very day to a mortal. Adam and Eve were mortal like all humans are and have always been mortal. They were mortal before they ate of the fruit and they remained mortal after.

They continued to live physical lives in the very day they ate the fruit but they did not die physical deaths.

This cannot be resolved by claiming that one day equals 1000 years to God because they were mortal human beings living on earth where 24 hours is one day.

They only way to resolve this is to notice what did happen in the day that they ate of the fruit. Expulsion from Eden and their diminished awareness and mental capacity is the death that they did experience in that very day..

In the same way Moses Promised that his people would die in the very day they violated any of the laws they received from God. If the warning was about physical death then there wouldn't be any Jewish people around.

If the consequences for violating the law of God was physical death then there wouldn't be any Christians around including you.

 

[hobelim]

It only adds credibility in that the warnings became accurate and fulfilled when it talked about the fallen imposter messiah the son of perdition as an image of a man that would be lifted higher then God.

Not only that but the force of the law and the death consequent to setting aside the way that Moses taught to follow can also be seen fulfilled in the confusion of people who think that by eating or abstaining from certain food a person can become holy as God is holy.

 

[kjw47]

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. If He was only spirit, it would have still been there. You do know, don't you, that Jesus' body was dead for a while? As I noted before, it was during that time that he preached to those who had died before. He was then resurrected and His body was transformed.

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

Except that He was seen by multiple people at multiple times after His resurrection in His resurrected body.

There is only a single instance. The story of Thomas. How do you explain he was unrecognizable outside the tomb on the first day? How do you explain him appearing behind a locked door?

Why would we need to explain it??? I just believe at it is written
Mary Magdalene certainly recognized Him. Called Him her Lord and God.
Luke 24:36-39 Seams to have taken place in the upper room. He had a body of Flesh and Bones here, yet he suddenly appeared behind closed doors.
Zech sez they will look upon him whom they have pierced, as well as beholding His wounds. This doesn't seam to coincide with what the Jehovah Witness's teach.

John 20:14

 

[kjw47]

God didn't say on the very day( a day to a mortal) it was one of his days=1000 years as a day to God,. 2Peter 3:8)

That is just plain silly. If God told me that I would physically die 1000 years from now I would say thank you very much.

God did say that they would die in the very day to a mortal. Adam and Eve were mortal like all humans are and have always been mortal. They were mortal before they ate of the fruit and they remained mortal after.

They continued to live physical lives in the very day they ate the fruit but they did not die physical deaths.

This cannot be resolved by claiming that one day equals 1000 years to God because they were mortal human beings living on earth where 24 hours is one day.

They only way to resolve this is to notice what did happen in the day that they ate of the fruit. Expulsion from Eden and their diminished awareness and mental capacity is the death that they did experience in that very day..

In the same way Moses Promised that his people would die in the very day they violated any of the laws they received from God. If the warning was about physical death then there wouldn't be any Jewish people around.

If the consequences for violating the law of God was physical death then there wouldn't be any Christians around including you.

They died a spiritual death on that day.

 

[HaShev]

Dietary laws were advice and suggestions to keep them safe and healthy not for righteousness in the sense you project falsely, but to live right.
I Don't see you complaining about the FDA and food inspection rules, nor the Gov't dietary "suggestions", nor people who choose
gluten free diets, organic diets, raw food diets, vegans etc.
Dietary & cleanliness laws and morality rules to live by helped them survive the plague, outlast many fallen empires and kingdoms and you want to complain about their sucess in progressing towards Shalem(completeness & wholeness)?
Is there a reason you despise people who strive for Shalem? Could it be because you are adversary that nature to be what we could and should be? I mean you made fun of my staying in shape, so I'm guessing you are way way out of shape, eat unhealthy food (which dies of natural causes of course) and do not strive to attain intellectual, social, psychological growth and progress therefore you displace behavior for those opposite your lack of drive towards evolving. Jews are transhumanist, you are a
stasist who wants humanity to remain subverted and held back. We evolve, you want to grab us down like a crab does to another crab escaping a crab bucket.
Right crabby?

 

[hadit]

Read the next verse: Quite obviously, this was not done here on earth, but was done before His resurrection. Also, from Luke, but other Gospels record the same, If He is only a spirit, He would have no need for a body, and it would still be there. It is not, and it is not because Jesus was resurrected.

In the ot when angels appeared to mortals, they appeared as mortals. Peter knew first hand and he stated--Jesus was raised a spirit. If your teachers are calling Gods word a lie--you need a new teacher.

Jesus' body was gone from the tomb. If He was only spirit, it would have still been there. You do know, don't you, that Jesus' body was dead for a while? As I noted before, it was during that time that he preached to those who had died before. He was then resurrected and His body was transformed.

No part lives on once one is dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ot teaches--On the day of ones death--ALL thought stops. It was symbolism that Jesus witnessed to the dead in Hades.( grave)

Except that He was seen by multiple people at multiple times after His resurrection in His resurrected body.

There is only a single instance. The story of Thomas.

Do you really want to argue the Bible when you clearly don't know much about it? Jesus appeared to:

The two disciples walking the road to Emmaus and the people where they stayed. Luke 24: 13-35.
The eleven disciples and those with them. Luke 24:36-43.
Thomas and the other disciples. John 20:24-29.
The disciples while they were fishing. John 21:1-14.
All of His disciples in Jerusalem. Acts 1:1-11.
More than 500 at one time. 1 Corinthians 15:5-8.

You cannot credibly claim that those accounts are all dreams. In each of those accounts He appeared to multiple people at one time and groups of people do not all see the same person, hear the same person, and touch the same person while having the same dream at the same time. That's less believable than them seeing the Son of God in resurrected form.

How do you explain he was unrecognizable outside the tomb on the first day? How do you explain him appearing behind a locked door?

Why do I have to explain that? I have already stated that Jesus was in His resurrected body. Quite obviously, God in a perfected body has abilities we in our imperfect bodies do not. Frankly, I look forward to having my perfected, resurrected body.