[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[Contumacious]

Both are merely tools. One works well in markets where significant cost, quality and features competition can be maintained, but not otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would do business in a capitalist market without competition.

HUH?

In a capitalist system there are not GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES - so there is no one to interfere with your right to enter/exit the marketplace.

The Capitalist system , the free market, is the only pure democracy where people vote with their money.

.

 

[PMZ]

Both are merely tools. One works well in markets where significant cost, quality and features competition can be maintained, but not otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would do business in a capitalist market without competition.

HUH?

In a capitalist system there are not GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES - so there is no one to interfere with your right to enter/exit the marketplace.

The Capitalist system , the free market, is the only pure democracy where people vote with their money.

.

Voting with your vote is not voting?

" there are not GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES"

Who is the competition to our military as one simple example.

 

[PMZ]

because there is no such thing as half socialism and half capitalism.

.

Sure there is. What do you think the United States is?

A FASCIST REGIME.

When the governmnet regulates and taxes the economy fascism prevails.

Karl Mark defined fascism as an interim process towards socialism.

.

Fascism is extreme right wing government of a tiny minority imposing on a majority. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.

 

[RKMBrown]

" The question isn't should we work together or not the question is what should we work toward."

How about adequate but not excessive pay for everyone capable of producing wealth?

" Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy."

No evidence. It's another thing that would be convenient to what you wish to be true.

Capitalism is only made productive by competition.

Government services are always less expensive and better where competition can't be maintained.

Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything.

>> How about adequate but not excessive pay for everyone capable of producing wealth?

I like earning a decent wage... Who doesn't? Why would anyone argue people should not have the ability to earn an adequate wage? I don't know anyone who does not have adequate pay, other than off-shored jobs and some on-shored illegals. I know of plenty of examples of situations where I would agree someone is getting excessive pay at the cost of the consumer through a government protected and/or ignored monopoly. Break up the monopolies and oligopolies on said excessive situations, punish exporting of our jobs and importing of goods produced by slave like labor rates, and the issue of American wage rates will get fixed on it's own through capitalist markets.

I said " Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy." In response you said "No evidence, It's another thing that would be convenient to what you wish to be true."

In response I would say that you are just acting stupid. If I've learned one thing in my life it is that people are people no matter where you go. Some people assume their leaders are better than they are. Heh, I know your leaders, I can tell you with experience people are people at all levels of all types of caste systems. Good and bad people everywhere you go, in every group, at every level of income, in every job imaginable.

>> Capitalism is only made productive by competition.

On this statement of yours we are in 100% agreement. Kudos, for recognizing this as a basic fact. The reason capitalism works is due to the competition. Take away the competition through socialist programs, government mandates, government provided and ignored monopolies and capitalism regresses into cronyism and enslavement of the consumer by monopolies.

>> Government services are always less expensive and better where competition can't be maintained.

Government, is a monopoly, there is no competition for government. Just as competition makes capitalist markets work, giving an industry to government forever ensures that industry will be screwed up.

>> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything.

Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation.

Look at Obama's health care web site, for example. I could have done all of the web content and software portions of that web site by myself in 6-9m, and it would have worked well beyond expectations. The hard part would have been the hosting, but it was the software that failed not the hardware setup. Why did it fail? Cronyism. Instead of hiring the right team to do the job they hired a friend of Obama's wife.

Let's start with specific examples.

Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Just to name a few.

>>> Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Our national military is the way it should be. The military already contracts out, based in part, on capitalism. Though some reform is necessary to ensure our tax dollars for our military don't go to China.

Air traffic Control should be managed by the airports. Airports should all be privatized. We don't need the feds to make sure the planes don't fly into each other.

Law enforcement, is local, and fine. No need for federal involvement in my local and state law enforcement. Further we don't need ATF or DHS. Though the FBI in a much reduced footprint is still useful. The primary jobs of the federal police force is to prohibit us from using farm products, like poppies aka. the war on Drugs, and spying on Americans, aks the war on fear. We should declare victory on those wars and move on.

Most of the functions of the FDA are to provide drug companies monopolies. Who watches the FDA? While I don't have a problem with the idea of the CDC, I don't like the idea of the government buying caskets for half our citizens, burying them around the country, building detention centers for half the country, and pretty much planning to kill us all just in case of some "emergency."

On interstate highways... we already have those. No need for further federal involvement. Let the states manage their roads.

 

[RKMBrown]

" >> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything."

"Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation."

Why would you even attempt to deny your allegiance to one economic system fits all? Capitalism.

Because it's not true. I only suggest capitalism for our free markets. I don't see military, police, fire, and / or basic rescue as free markets. I do see elective health care as a free market. However, even for military, police, fire, and / or basic rescue I prefer local solutions over federal solutions. Clearly the US Armed Forces and FBI are national. However when you start talking about local police fire, and / or basic rescue the states seem like a better scope of control to ensure the job gets done right with some exceptions where one state might need help from neighboring states for exceptional events. But even then why do we need national guard for a hurricane?

 

[PMZ]

" >> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything."

"Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation."

Why would you even attempt to deny your allegiance to one economic system fits all? Capitalism.

Because it's not true. I only suggest capitalism for our free markets. I don't see military, police, fire, and / or basic rescue as free markets. I do see elective health care as a free market.

" I do see elective health care as a free market."

The problem being that the vast majority of health care delivery is not elective. So it's about as far from a free market as we can get.

It's largely a noncompetitive capitalist market and that's the problem.

 

[Contumacious]

Sure there is. What do you think the United States is?

A FASCIST REGIME.

When the governmnet regulates and taxes the economy fascism prevails.

Karl Mark defined fascism as an interim process towards socialism.

.

Fascism is extreme right wing government of a tiny minority imposing on a majority. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.

Bullshit.

The prototype fascist states - the 1940's Axis - - Mussolini and Hirohito were left wingers only Hitler was a right winger.

.

 

[PrometheusBound]

They lucked out by being born here. Luck isn't free.

Even if you work your way up the ladder based on your talent, you're lucky to find a company that lets you do that instead of requiring you to sacrifice your personal life and personality by becoming a workoholic bootlicker, which has nothing to do with talent. Only 5% of the people find jobs that reward without crushing the individual. Of course, the Capitaliban preach that the Magic Market rewards practically all jobs rationally under their Greedhead utopia and luck has little to do with it. How can it be rational when it means mindless submission to uncontrollable outside forces?

Another example of luck is that unknowable outside factors create opportunities, making choices into blind guesses. Successful people mostly made their "right" choices purely by accident. A typical example I found out about in 1980 was someone who got into geology when it was just for professors, like anthropology. The oil business suddenly boomed and he became a millionaire, totally unexpectedly. The earliest computer millionaires were just hobbyists who had no idea their playthings would have much practical value.

On the opposite side, someone right after World War II could have plausibly predicted that helicopters would replace trucks and buses. Didn't happen, for reasons too complicated for anyone to understand except by hindsight.

LETS you?? LETS you?? Since when is it the company's responsibility to have you do things to advance??? Sacrifice IS what it is all about.. you may indeed have to sacrifice 'personal time', family time, money, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and tons of frustration.. but if you ******* want more, it is what you have to do

Suck it up and drive on, *****

Boot licking Mamas' Boys who see the boss as some infallible father figure they must give strict obedience to are the real pussies. Grow up and stand up like a man, not some childish and gutless wage slave. The dumb jock bully bosses' slogan of "My Way or the Highway" means that their way is the low way. Only high and mighty lowlife rule in such a system.

 

[Synthaholic]

A FASCIST REGIME.

When the governmnet regulates and taxes the economy fascism prevails.

Karl Mark defined fascism as an interim process towards socialism.

.

Fascism is extreme right wing government of a tiny minority imposing on a majority. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.

Bullshit.

The prototype fascist states - the 1940's Axis - - Mussolini and Hirohito were left wingers only Hitler was a right winger.

.

You gotta get on the same page as the other wingnuts - they claim Hitler was a Liberal, and that's why it's called National Socialist German Workers' Party.

 

[PMZ]

>> How about adequate but not excessive pay for everyone capable of producing wealth?

I like earning a decent wage... Who doesn't? Why would anyone argue people should not have the ability to earn an adequate wage? I don't know anyone who does not have adequate pay, other than off-shored jobs and some on-shored illegals. I know of plenty of examples of situations where I would agree someone is getting excessive pay at the cost of the consumer through a government protected and/or ignored monopoly. Break up the monopolies and oligopolies on said excessive situations, punish exporting of our jobs and importing of goods produced by slave like labor rates, and the issue of American wage rates will get fixed on it's own through capitalist markets.

I said " Assuming government workers are better and more trustworthy than non-government workers is a gross fallacy." In response you said "No evidence, It's another thing that would be convenient to what you wish to be true."

In response I would say that you are just acting stupid. If I've learned one thing in my life it is that people are people no matter where you go. Some people assume their leaders are better than they are. Heh, I know your leaders, I can tell you with experience people are people at all levels of all types of caste systems. Good and bad people everywhere you go, in every group, at every level of income, in every job imaginable.

>> Capitalism is only made productive by competition.

On this statement of yours we are in 100% agreement. Kudos, for recognizing this as a basic fact. The reason capitalism works is due to the competition. Take away the competition through socialist programs, government mandates, government provided and ignored monopolies and capitalism regresses into cronyism and enslavement of the consumer by monopolies.

>> Government services are always less expensive and better where competition can't be maintained.

Government, is a monopoly, there is no competition for government. Just as competition makes capitalist markets work, giving an industry to government forever ensures that industry will be screwed up.

>> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything.

Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation.

Look at Obama's health care web site, for example. I could have done all of the web content and software portions of that web site by myself in 6-9m, and it would have worked well beyond expectations. The hard part would have been the hosting, but it was the software that failed not the hardware setup. Why did it fail? Cronyism. Instead of hiring the right team to do the job they hired a friend of Obama's wife.

Let's start with specific examples.

Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Just to name a few.

>>> Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Our national military is the way it should be. The military already contracts out, based in part, on capitalism. Though some reform is necessary to ensure our tax dollars for our military don't go to China.

Air traffic Control should be managed by the airports. Airports should all be privatized. We don't need the feds to make sure the planes don't fly into each other.

Law enforcement, is local, and fine. No need for federal involvement in my local and state law enforcement. Further we don't need ATF or DHS. Though the FBI in a much reduced footprint is still useful. The primary jobs of the federal police force is to prohibit us from using farm products, like poppies aka. the war on Drugs, and spying on Americans, aks the war on fear. We should declare victory on those wars and move on.

Most of the functions of the FDA are to provide drug companies monopolies. Who watches the FDA? While I don't have a problem with the idea of the CDC, I don't like the idea of the government buying caskets for half our citizens, burying them around the country, building detention centers for half the country, and pretty much planning to kill us all just in case of some "emergency."

On interstate highways... we already have those. No need for further federal involvement. Let the states manage their roads.

" Air traffic Control should be managed by the airports. Airports should all be privatized. We don't need the feds to make sure the planes don't fly into each other."

A really dumb idea. Air traffic control is one system with many nodes.

I can see it now. "United 662, we're having a sale today on traffic control to Cleveland. $10 per mile thus week only. Our competition is $14 per mile."

Give me a break.

Local law enforcement has no jurisdiction outside of whatever place pays them.

I can see the public reaction to eliminating DHS. Remember their reaction to lifting the prohibition of carrying pocket knives on board?
No, I think that we'll continue to follow the majority for making these decisions. You may not like the title of extremist but it's pretty accurate.

 

[PMZ]

Let's start with specific examples.

Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Just to name a few.

>>> Tell us how you would set up competitive militaries. Or Air Traffic Control. Or law enforcement. Or FDA. Or CDC. Or Interstate Highways.

Our national military is the way it should be. The military already contracts out, based in part, on capitalism. Though some reform is necessary to ensure our tax dollars for our military don't go to China.

Air traffic Control should be managed by the airports. Airports should all be privatized. We don't need the feds to make sure the planes don't fly into each other.

Law enforcement, is local, and fine. No need for federal involvement in my local and state law enforcement. Further we don't need ATF or DHS. Though the FBI in a much reduced footprint is still useful. The primary jobs of the federal police force is to prohibit us from using farm products, like poppies aka. the war on Drugs, and spying on Americans, aks the war on fear. We should declare victory on those wars and move on.

Most of the functions of the FDA are to provide drug companies monopolies. Who watches the FDA? While I don't have a problem with the idea of the CDC, I don't like the idea of the government buying caskets for half our citizens, burying them around the country, building detention centers for half the country, and pretty much planning to kill us all just in case of some "emergency."

On interstate highways... we already have those. No need for further federal involvement. Let the states manage their roads.

" Air traffic Control should be managed by the airports. Airports should all be privatized. We don't need the feds to make sure the planes don't fly into each other."

A really dumb idea. Air traffic control is one system with many nodes.

I can see it now. "United 662, we're having a sale today on traffic control to Cleveland. $10 per mile thus week only. Our competition is $14 per mile."

Give me a break.

Local law enforcement has no jurisdiction outside of whatever place pays them.

I can see the public reaction to eliminating DHS. Remember their reaction to lifting the prohibition of carrying pocket knives on board?

No, I think that we'll continue to follow the majority for making these decisions. You may not like the title of extremist but it's pretty accurate.

 

[PrometheusBound]

LETS you?? LETS you?? Since when is it the company's responsibility to have you do things to advance??? Sacrifice IS what it is all about.. you may indeed have to sacrifice 'personal time', family time, money, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and tons of frustration.. but if you ******* want more, it is what you have to do

Suck it up and drive on, *****

Certainly one thing the country has learned is that conservatives worship wealth. There is simply nothing they won't do for it.

It's pretty easy to see the consequences of giving people who value wealth over everything any responsibility for others. Any responsibility for anything.

It's easy to vote them out of government. Harder, but just as important, to not do business with them. They are toxic people.

You are the one that worships wealth.
The wealth earned by others that you want to steal from them.

Owners aren't earners. They are just parasites like all other guillotine fodder, from time immemorial.

 

[Contumacious]

Fascism is extreme right wing government of a tiny minority imposing on a majority. Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.

Bullshit.

The prototype fascist states - the 1940's Axis - - Mussolini and Hirohito were left wingers only Hitler was a right winger.

.

You gotta get on the same page as the other wingnuts - they claim Hitler was a Liberal, and that's why it's called National Socialist German Workers' Party.

It is true that the nazi's roots were socialist.

But once he became a Fuhrer Hitler, set aside socialism in favor of fascism. He formed very close alliances with industrialists like the Krupp family.

The Krupp Family was as corrupt as Warren Buffett.

.

 

[RKMBrown]

" >> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything."

"Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation."

Why would you even attempt to deny your allegiance to one economic system fits all? Capitalism.

Because it's not true. I only suggest capitalism for our free markets. I don't see military, police, fire, and / or basic rescue as free markets. I do see elective health care as a free market.

" I do see elective health care as a free market."

The problem being that the vast majority of health care delivery is not elective. So it's about as far from a free market as we can get.

It's largely a noncompetitive capitalist market and that's the problem.

I take that as you cede all the other issues I covered.

Thus we are down to non-elective life saving procedures. However, as discussed before OCA is not only for non-elective life saving procedures, nor is it for Hospital Emergencies only. Obama care covers the gamut of elective pregnancies, sex changes, and birth control to hip, elbow, knee replacements. While I'm happy some folks will get a chance to become the six million dollar man for "free" it's not sustainable.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Unabridged Socialist Dictionary:

fair
fe(&#601r/

share
SHe(&#601r/

adjectives

1. In accordance with the Communist Manifesto , the total amount of wealth that the Parasites can expropriate, steal and plunder.

.

According to this definition, the wealthy are fair.

You know why? Because Communism is Capitalism, Jr., just as Capitalism was Feudalism, Jr., which was Slavery, Jr. Heirheads may convince themselves that they are rebelling against their fathers, but that is biologically impossible.

The Stalinists instituted the same Gulag sweatshops that Capitalism started with. We will never get off the Road to Serfdom until we realize that anyone related to the previous regime must not be allowed to participate in a democracy, which can no more tolerate aristocracy than fire can mix with water.

 

[Contumacious]

Unabridged Socialist Dictionary:

fair
fe(&#601r/

share
SHe(&#601r/

adjectives

1. In accordance with the Communist Manifesto , the total amount of wealth that the Parasites can expropriate, steal and plunder.

.

According to this definition, the wealthy are fair.

You know why? Because Communism is Capitalism, Jr., just as Capitalism was Feudalism, Jr., which was Slavery, Jr. Heirheads may convince themselves that they are rebelling against their fathers, but that is biologically impossible.

The Stalinists instituted the same Gulag sweatshops that Capitalism started with. We will never get off the Road to Serfdom until we realize that anyone related to the previous regime must not be allowed to participate in a democracy, which can no more tolerate aristocracy than fire can mix with water.

HUH?

WTF?

I feel pretty,
Oh, so pretty,
I feel pretty, and witty and gay,
And I pity
Any girl who isn’t me today.....


That anger management course has come in handy.

.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Both are merely tools. One works well in markets where significant cost, quality and features competition can be maintained, but not otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would do business in a capitalist market without competition.

HUH?

In a capitalist system there are not GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES - so there is no one to interfere with your right to enter/exit the marketplace.

The Capitalist system , the free market, is the only pure democracy where people vote with their money.

.

And those with more loot get more votes. It's the best system money can buy. Those who claim to be rugged individuals get that way by making others ragged individuals.

 

[Contumacious]

Both are merely tools. One works well in markets where significant cost, quality and features competition can be maintained, but not otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would do business in a capitalist market without competition.

HUH?

In a capitalist system there are not GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES - so there is no one to interfere with your right to enter/exit the marketplace.

The Capitalist system , the free market, is the only pure democracy where people vote with their money.

.

And those with more loot get more votes. It's the best system money can buy. Those who claim to be rugged individuals get that way by making others ragged individuals.

Somehow the work ethic didn't make Americans prior to 1935 "ragged". But Tyranny and socialism certainly will.

.

 

[PrometheusBound]

" >> Your insistence that we eliminate screws because all you have is a hammer is not a solution to anything."

"Your ignorant statements won't lead to cooperation."

Why would you even attempt to deny your allegiance to one economic system fits all? Capitalism.

Because it's not true. I only suggest capitalism for our free markets. I don't see military, police, fire, and / or basic rescue as free markets. I do see elective health care as a free market.

" I do see elective health care as a free market."

The problem being that the vast majority of health care delivery is not elective. So it's about as far from a free market as we can get.

It's largely a noncompetitive capitalist market and that's the problem.

You're making it hard for the Bootlicking Boytoys of the Bosses to get away with their simple-minded cocksure chatter. All they are saying is, "We got ours, it doesn't matter how. We're not going to let you get yours because that would make it look like we weren't superior to you."

 

[PrometheusBound]

According to this definition, the wealthy are fair.

You know why? Because Communism is Capitalism, Jr., just as Capitalism was Feudalism, Jr., which was Slavery, Jr. Heirheads may convince themselves that they are rebelling against their fathers, but that is biologically impossible.

The Stalinists instituted the same Gulag sweatshops that Capitalism started with. We will never get off the Road to Serfdom until we realize that anyone related to the previous regime must not be allowed to participate in a democracy, which can no more tolerate aristocracy than fire can mix with water.

HUH?

WTF?

I feel pretty,
Oh, so pretty,
I feel pretty, and witty and gay,
And I pity
Any girl who isn’t me today.....


That anger management course has come in handy.

.

Anything the ruling class won't allow to be said about itself strikes slave-minds as absurd.