Paul Fussell — “Thank God for the Atom Bomb”

[mikegriffith1]

You are a pure hack. The Japanese could of surrendered to the Soviets but they did not, they fought.

The Japanese could of dropped their rifles and said I give up but they did not. Show us all the war meetings and correspondence related to the continued fighting between the Soviets and Japanese. You won't because you have only read other peoes work, at best rewrapped into into an essay of your own as if you know something.

I have books you have used here, after finding a clip in a Google search, and books you reference showed your arguments to be wrong.

And what is your argument now, more Google links to books you have not read. You certainly did not read the other books you referenced otherwise you would realize how wrong and tired your argument is.

And you are a pure clown. Oh, the Japanese could have surrendered to the Soviets while the Soviets were actively attacking them, never mind that at that point the Soviets were refusing to honor the surrender!!! There were several cases where the Japanese raised the white flag, and the Soviets kept attacking. But you don't know this because you don't know what you're talking about.

You obviously have not read any of the books I've referenced, or else you would not make the erroneous claim that those books "showed your [my] arguments to be wrong." What on earth are you talking about? Every book I cited in my previous reply argues that nuking Japan was unnecessary, immoral, and did not save lives.

The fact that Truman and his military cronies felt compelled to lie about the nature of the nuked targets, the effects of radiation, and the numerous subsequent deaths caused by radiation poisoning shows that deep down they knew that nuking two cities was wrong. For a while, General Groves was even claiming that dying from radiation was actually a pleasant way to die--and most journalists dutifully repeated this obscene lie for months.

 

[elektra]

And you are a pure clown. Oh, the Japanese could have surrendered to the Soviets while the Soviets were actively attacking them, .

Uh, that is how surrendering and war works. You attack the enemy, they wave a white flag and surrender.

But as you said, the Japanese were beat in the spring. Yes here the are fighting in late summer.

Yes, I get it, red is blue, up is down, the Japanese were still fighting but we did not need to drop the bomb?

 

[elektra]

.You obviously have not read any of the books I've referenced, or else you would not make the erroneous claim that those books "showed your [my] arguments to be wrong." What on earth are you talking about? Every book I cited in my previous reply argues that nuking Japan was unnecessary, immoral, and did not save lives.

I have read books you referenced.. At the very least I have read 12 books you have referenced and appear in your links. I have quoted from those books and shown that they contradict your revisionist opinion.

Now you have more books or are are these the same tired old revisionist rags?

 

[Turtlesoup]

Seldom I heard such a summary of propagandistic nonsense about the pacific war side of world war 2. The USA forced Japan in 185x with canon boats to open their markets for business. Japan had been unbelieveabel fast in learning the racist rules of the colonialist powers. The racism of the Nazis and the racism of Japan had the same origin: industrialisation, darwinism (racism) and colonialisms.



So I guess so you agree with Klaus Fuchs to share this technology with the Russian Soviets.

darwinism is not racism.....

 

[elektra]

Japan was not able to win the war against the USA so the war crimes Hieroshima and Nagasaki had been a good excuse for the leaders of the Japanese nation to end this war. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were test 2+3 who had followed the first nuclear test in Los Alamos which had been called "trinity" - a clear blasphemy. And whoever "thanks god" for the death of so many innocent human beings should speak with a psychotherapist about the own unreal view to the world.

You preferred that the Japanese be left to continue killing Americans?

Sorry, I am a citizen of the USA. I can not take the side of those killing Americans, as well as women and children across Asia. I am just different than you.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Uh, that is how surrendering and war works. You attack the enemy, they wave a white flag and surrender.

But as you said, the Japanese were beat in the spring. Yes here the are fighting in late summer.

Yes, I get it, red is blue, up is down, the Japanese were still fighting but we did not need to drop the bomb?

Uhhhh, noooooo, that's not how surrendering in war works. What planet do you live on? Down here on Earth, when a force raises the white flag and offers to surrender, the other force, by the rules of war, is supposed to stop fighting and then either dictate or negotiate the surrender terms. If Force A raises the white flag and offers to surrender but Force B ignores the surrender offer and keeps firing and attacking, Force A is not going to just submit to wanton slaughter--and no rational person would expect them to do so.

Your refusal to acknowledge Japan's beaten, prostrate condition is typical of militaristic traditionalists. In two other threads, I massively documented Japan's decimated, prostate condition, a condition that was freely admitted by many senior military officers at the time. As just one example, General LeMay ordered that his bombers remove their machine guns--because he knew that Japan's air defenses were so weak that he was losing fewer than 4% of his bombers in bombing raids, and some of those losses were due to accidents. Similarly, Japan's naval defenses were virtually non-existent: U.S. Navy ships raided and shelled Japanese ports at will, and were almost never challenged by Japanese naval vessels (since the vast majority of the Japanese navy had been destroyed).

One day you might break down and at least read the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS). The USSBS spent months studying the effects of our conventional and atomic bombing of Japan and concluded that Japan would have surrendered by no later than December 1945, and probably before November, even if we had not used the atomic bomb and even if the Soviet Union had not entered the war against Japan:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (USSBS 26)​

 

[elektra]

Uhhhh, noooooo, that's not how surrendering in war works. What planet do you live on? Down here on Earth, when a force raises the white flag and offers to surrender, the other force, by the rules of war, is supposed to stop fighting and then either dictate or negotiate the surrender terms. If Force A raises the white flag and offers to surrender but Force B ignores the surrender offer and keeps firing and attacking, Force A is not going to just submit to wanton slaughter--and no rational person would expect them to do so.

Your refusal to acknowledge Japan's beaten, prostrate condition is typical of militaristic traditionalists. In two other threads, I massively documented Japan's decimated, prostate condition, a condition that was freely admitted by many senior military officers at the time. As just one example, General LeMay ordered that his bombers remove their machine guns--because he knew that Japan's air defenses were so weak that he was losing fewer than 4% of his bombers in bombing raids, and some of those losses were due to accidents. Similarly, Japan's naval defenses were virtually non-existent: U.S. Navy ships raided and shelled Japanese ports at will, and were almost never challenged by Japanese naval vessels (since the vast majority of the Japanese navy had been destroyed).

One day you might break down and at least read the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS). The USSBS spent months studying the effects of our conventional and atomic bombing of Japan and concluded that Japan would have surrendered by no later than December 1945, and probably before November, even if we had not used the atomic bomb and even if the Soviet Union had not entered the war against Japan:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (USSBS 26)​

No, you copied tertiary works by others. When you did quote I proved it to be out of context or misquoted or that person said so much their comment was invalid.

You never once proved a thing. And I will prove it again.

 

[elektra]

Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war,

Opinion? Is that fact? No!

Japan would of? Yet they did not, and we can quote the leaders saying they will not surrender

 

[zaangalewa]

darwinism is not racism.....

I make a difference between the real scientific theory of evolution and Darwins biology of racism. He justified just simple the British idiots who had been able to "rule" 25% of the world idiots for the best of the very rich British idiots.

Before you answer now: What do you think about what thought Charles Darwin before he overtook from Herbert Spencer the expression "survival of the fittest" when he spoke about "natural selection" before the 5th edition of "On the Origin of Species"?

 

[zaangalewa]

You preferred that the Japanese be left to continue killing Americans?

Counterquestion: The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki murdered US-American civilists or had been civilists who had been murdered from US-American soldiers?

Sorry, I am a citizen of the USA.

I'm a German - and a citizen of the world.

I can not take the side of those killing Americans, as well as women and children across Asia. I am just different than you.

That's why I am not a moralist who has to feel any duty to kill someone who murdered millions of Germans and had reduced Germany to rubble.

By the way: Happy New Year 2022!

 

[AZrailwhale]

Uhhhh, noooooo, that's not how surrendering in war works. What planet do you live on? Down here on Earth, when a force raises the white flag and offers to surrender, the other force, by the rules of war, is supposed to stop fighting and then either dictate or negotiate the surrender terms. If Force A raises the white flag and offers to surrender but Force B ignores the surrender offer and keeps firing and attacking, Force A is not going to just submit to wanton slaughter--and no rational person would expect them to do so.

Your refusal to acknowledge Japan's beaten, prostrate condition is typical of militaristic traditionalists. In two other threads, I massively documented Japan's decimated, prostate condition, a condition that was freely admitted by many senior military officers at the time. As just one example, General LeMay ordered that his bombers remove their machine guns--because he knew that Japan's air defenses were so weak that he was losing fewer than 4% of his bombers in bombing raids, and some of those losses were due to accidents. Similarly, Japan's naval defenses were virtually non-existent: U.S. Navy ships raided and shelled Japanese ports at will, and were almost never challenged by Japanese naval vessels (since the vast majority of the Japanese navy had been destroyed).

One day you might break down and at least read the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS). The USSBS spent months studying the effects of our conventional and atomic bombing of Japan and concluded that Japan would have surrendered by no later than December 1945, and probably before November, even if we had not used the atomic bomb and even if the Soviet Union had not entered the war against Japan:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (USSBS 26)​

LeMay had the B-29s remove their guns because he moved to bombing at night to reduce casualties and gain accuracy by bombing at low altitude, NOT because the Japanese interceptors were impotent. The “survivors” interviewed weren’t the militarists who were running Japan when the nukes were dropped. The Air Force always overestimated the results of bombing, it promised that daylight strategic bombing would knock Germany out of the war in short order. It didn’t. They also claimed that they could force the North Vietnamese to surrender and were wrong again as they were in Korea.
The Japanese has thousands of suicide boats hidden to attack the landing craft and ships of the invasion forces divers prepared to use suicide charges on landing craft, tens of thousands of Kamikazes aircraft hidden and waiting.
The Japanese had no intention of surrendering, they were prepared to fight to the last man woman and child for their “honor” rather than being disgraced by surrendering. Look at their attitude towards western military and civilians who surrendered to them for an example of what they thought of surrender to an enemy. To the Japanese a person who surrendered rather than dying was less than human.

 

[zaangalewa]

LeMay had the B-29s remove their guns because he moved to bombing at night to reduce casualties and gain accuracy by bombing at low altitude, NOT because the Japanese interceptors were impotent. The “survivors” interviewed weren’t the militarists who were running Japan when the nukes were dropped. The Air Force always overestimated the results of bombing, it promised that daylight strategic bombing would knock Germany out of the war in short order. It didn’t. They also claimed that they could force the North Vietnamese to surrender and were wrong again as they were in Korea.
The Japanese has thousands of suicide boats hidden to attack the landing craft and ships of the invasion forces divers prepared to use suicide charges on landing craft, tens of thousands of Kamikazes aircraft hidden and waiting.
The Japanese had no intention of surrendering, they were prepared to fight to the last man woman and child for their “honor”

Idiot

rather than being disgraced by surrendering. Look at their attitude towards western military and civilians who surrendered to them for an example of what they thought of surrender to an enemy. To the Japanese a person who surrendered rather than dying was less than human.

The first terrible solution of a war is to lose - what could for example mean in a worst case scenario to be totally wiped out. The second terrible solution of a war is to win, because who is used to solve the own problems with wars will continue to do wars until he will lose.

 

[elektra]

Counterquestion: The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki murdered US-American civilists or had been civilists who had been murdered from US-American soldiers?

Yes, some of the citizens of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were guards at the POW camps that were murdering US citizens

Yes, some of the citizens Hiroshima and Nagasaki were were soldiers that fought for the Japanese, killing Americans.

Yes, both Nagasaki and Hiroshima citizens worked making bombs, rifles, ammunition, compasses, etc..

Yes, Hiroshima, an industrial target, working for the war, care for exact details of the military industrial machine in Hiroshima. Japanese 5th Division and the 2nd Army Headquarters, that was Hiroshima, and of course, 100 years ago when most people did not own cars and mass transportation was not huge across the world, cities did get built around military headquarters.

Yes Hiroshima was a communications center.

Yes Hiroshima was a port, a port used to ship troops to war

Yes Hiroshima was a military supply center.

Nagasaki, did someone mention Mitsubishi Shipyard and Machine works? Can I say they repaired Navy ships in Nagasaki? Can I say they built battleships at Mitsubishi? Nagasaki was a major port city and a military industrial city.

The poor poor Japanese, that celebrated the Rape of Nanking, going as far as to print pictures of the horrors in local newspapers, alerting the world to the atrocities the Japanese were committing across Asia.

War, war is not played by an army on a far away football field measured in yards by those who are on the team. Wars are fought by nations with the entire nation engaged. That includes the civilians.

Even the innocent somehow play a part in the war. Sadly in Japan, the civilians enthusiastically participated. Even today, you are part of the war machine, playing your part, even if it is small. When we go to war, you are part of that machine.

Yes, all you folks would like to think you are immune, safe, innocent, because you oppose war. But no matter how you feel, if you worked a day, you worked for any war that happens during or after your employment. Sorry, you are citizen, and a target, in the nation in which you serve. Hell, your work paid the taxes that built the war machine. Thank you for your little bit of help maintaining our nuclear bombs.

 

[elektra]

I'm a German - and a citizen of the world.

Sure you are, a citizen of the world, let us see your tax returns for every country in the world, hell lets see you tax returns for two separate countries?

A citizen of the world, in your imagination.

 

[elektra]

That's why I am not a moralist who has to feel any duty to kill someone who murdered millions of Germans and had reduced Germany to rubble.

A moralist would not label those killed, in war, as murdered. Let us just call you a moron, happy new year.

 

[zaangalewa]

Yes, some of the citizens of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were guards at the POW camps that were murdering US citizens

Yes, some of the citizens Hiroshima and Nagasaki were were soldiers that fought for the Japanese, killing Americans.

Yes, both Nagasaki and Hiroshima citizens worked making bombs, rifles, ammunition, compasses, etc..

Yes, Hiroshima, an industrial target, working for the war, care for exact details of the military industrial machine in Hiroshima. Japanese 5th Division and the 2nd Army Headquarters, that was Hiroshima, and of course, 100 years ago when most people did not own cars and mass transportation was not huge across the world, cities did get built around military headquarters.

Yes Hiroshima was a communications center.

Yes Hiroshima was a port, a port used to ship troops to war

Yes Hiroshima was a military supply center.

Nagasaki, did someone mention Mitsubishi Shipyard and Machine works? Can I say they repaired Navy ships in Nagasaki? Can I say they built battleships at Mitsubishi? Nagasaki was a major port city and a military industrial city.

The poor poor Japanese, that celebrated the Rape of Nanking, going as far as to print pictures of the horrors in local newspapers, alerting the world to the atrocities the Japanese were committing across Asia.

War, war is not played by an army on a far away football field measured in yards by those who are on the team. Wars are fought by nations with the entire nation engaged. That includes the civilians.

Even the innocent somehow play a part in the war. Sadly in Japan, the civilians enthusiastically participated. Even today, you are part of the war machine, playing your part, even if it is small. When we go to war, you are part of that machine.

Yes, all you folks would like to think you are immune, safe, innocent, because you oppose war. But no matter how you feel, if you worked a day, you worked for any war that happens during or after your employment. Sorry, you are citizen, and a target, in the nation in which you serve. Hell, your work paid the taxes that built the war machine. Thank you for your little bit of help maintaining our nuclear bombs.

An interesting apology for the mass-murder of the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you apologize the reasons for 9/11 also in such an "excellent" way?

 

[elektra]

An interesting apology for the mass-murder of the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you apologize the reasons for 9/11 also in such an "excellent" way?

yep, you are not a moralist, not by a long shot
a shame, that you are a citizen of the tyrants, no matter if it is today, or yesterday

 

[elektra]

An interesting apology for the mass-murder of the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you apologize the reasons for 9/11 also in such an "excellent" way?

Yes, we see that you could care less if these men died as POWs, that they were tortured and starved by the Japanese.
You call the Japanese who perpetrated these crimes, innocent, have you not any morals?

 

[zaangalewa]

Sure you are, a citizen of the world,

That's what I say - without comma.

let us see your tax returns for every country in the world,

Mercantilism is really a very strange form of philosophy. Do you really think humanity and justice depend on the taxes Donald Trump never paid - although he had been an elected "first" (German: "Fürst") for some years - or is a man like him not just simple only a devilish traitor of the values of the western world?

hell lets see you tax returns for two separate countries?

A citizen of the world, in your imagination.

Dogs and philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards
Diogenes

 

[elektra]

An interesting apology for the mass-murder of the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you apologize the reasons for 9/11 also in such an "excellent" way?

and then, the guards walked home to hiroshima and nagasaki, where mom had dinner ready, would wash their uniform, and then in the morning, pack them a nice lunch and send them back, feeling proud, to the POW camp. The simple, innocent people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fuck those Americans in the POW camps, they deserve to die for what the USA would do in the future to stop the Japanese from killing them???