Partial Birth Abortion Ban

[Creek]

...You must mean you're gona teach college classes...

Night Train(NT) is a good guy here...I haven't a clue what you two would disaggree on..or for..I like the guy to much to target him..from your persistance...


I think we've all done drugs here,and some probly still do...(grin)...marijuana at the most.....so you're gona be a regular here?...(smile)......that's great to hear!!!

I hardly ever participate in debates..I don't even watch the news no more..Yes,that's crazy...I'm nuts..and be silly here....I'd create the facts before I'd argue them...so I'm a peon here..to some degree.....(smile)..so that shows who I am...

Everybody is pretty cool here.....I think you're gona like them,and I feel they are gona like you too!!!!...

Welcome to the board..and don't be a stranger!!!....you're a fighter,and that's more scary....

 

[Creek]

..We're all a little guilty here...It's easy to say all this...and Janeen & Keebs brought that up in different ways...I'm the most guilty comming in on this debate..with my heart being on the the side of my thoughts....I think all of us should be ashamed...

We've all learned a valuable lesson here today...lets know that,and walk away from this being better people...all of us...Amen

 

[SLClemens]

What a fascinating discussion. I was just reading Faye Ginsburg's _Contested Lives_ about the abortion debate in Fargo, N. Dakota, something that would have much relevance here.

The one thing that seems to missing from this debate is the will of the majority within a democracy, especially when concerning moral issues, and the relationship of this to our constitutional rights for individual freedom.

I could find poll after poll after poll to post, but I don't think I need to in order to state with much confidence a few very obvious trends:

The vast majority of Americans are in favor of the right to choose when a woman's life is endagered by pregnacy.

A clear majority of Americans are opposed to abortion on demand in the third trimester, including partial-birth abortions, when a woman's life is not endagered.

Americans are pretty evenly divided about abortion on demand in the first two trimesters; generally I think we are slightly in favor of a pro-choice position for the first three months but then become slightly anti-choice once we approach fetal viability.

Americans generally do not support public funding of abortion, as almost all other western societies do.


Now, American laws do not reflect these preferences perfectly in every case, and there are many rural areas where access to abortion is very difficult and made more difficult by anti-choice advocates. But on the whole I think American law does reflect the above. We should take pride that our democracy is working reasonably well here.

What I'd suggest to those of an anti-choice position: if you really hate abortion, support sex education wherever possible. Many western European nations that have excellent access to publically-funded abortion, low birth rates, and probably much more sex outside marriage, too, nevertheless have much lower abortion rates than we do. Why could this possibly be? It can only be that they're making better use of other forms of birth control. You think abortion is murder? Sex-ed seems a much better weapon than lobbying government or interfering with abortion clinics in lowering abortion rates.

(I realize this might be news to Jim who will no doubt cry out for documented evidence so please have a gander at http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html )

 

[Keebs]

Well, I went to my friends 25th birthday party. I had time to think about a lot of things. I want to say that, while I do not feel bad about pressing my views and asking heaps of questions about peoples belief, I do feel terrible that I didn't stop earlier. Janeen's post should have at least made me slow down slightly. For this, I need to apologize to her.

I really really don't want you to think that what you said had no impact on me. I understand that you reveiled what you did in your life, to help me better understand where you are comming from. I want you to know that you are what I thought about at my small adventure away from debate. I do hope that you can forgive yourself, because you made the choice that was right for you at the moment. I'm ashamed that I didn't stop and take time out for you and think of what my opinions did to you.

Sometimes we do things that we aren't very proud of, but I think everything in life is delt to us as a learning experiance. You know something about this subject that none of us here could possibly know. I asked for facts, you gave me the facts for why you feel the way you do, and I very much appreciate that. You are a very brave person, don't let anyone tell you different.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Keebs, you are quite the genius.

And you KNOW I agree.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by eric

Maybe we can sum it up like this:

Abortion is not a good thing. A women has a right to choose, a baby has a right to live, maybe if we work together and stop arguing we can find a way to educate people to reduce this situation from occuring in the first place, and should it occur, maybe we can come to a compassionate soultion in each case.

I'm sorry if this makes me a bad person in your eyes, and you are entitled to your opinions. The namecalling and personal attacks were not necessary and got out of hand, for this again I apologize. [/B]

I certainly think that's a fantastic step in the right direction. Well said eric, well said.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Keebs

Ha! You should try being one of the only Canadians! Kidding people, kidding

I love Canada!!! Come on! Sarah McLachlan? Mike Myers?? HOCKEY!! =)

You forgot to mention our rugged, handsome men!

 

[Keebs]

Abortion is not a good thing. A women has a right to choose, a baby has a right to live, maybe if we work together and stop arguing we can find a way to educate people to reduce this situation from occuring in the first place, and should it occur, maybe we can come to a compassionate soultion in each case.

I agree 100%, it isn't a good thing. A woman should have the right to choose, and a baby should have a right to live. I agree.

I think clearly, the answer to the problem is education. It isn't a big nasty secret to avoid, it isn't something that children should be shielded from. Sex happens, and if parents would teach their children about birth control, and responsiblity with adult decisions, like sex, a lot of the underage abortion would stop.

But, that is just one answer to the numerous avenues of this debate.

The same can also be said for the NRA. Education is very important. If people would stop being ingorant with guns, and sex... I don't think these things would be as much of a problem

--------

Can I please state that, I do not advocate abortion? I don't talk people into having one, and I would never EVER force anyone to have one.

Women are going to have abortions, even if you or I or the next door neighbor think it is wrong, immoral, unfair to the fetus.. etc.

Now, we have to ask ourselves this. If the women are going to do it anyway, should we protect them from death? IE: back ally - coat hanger abortions? Or, do those immoral women (for whatever reason) should die from the coat hanger abortions?

This is my line of thinking. I can't immagine anyone ever going to a back ally abortionist, because of something I inforced. I couldn't stand the thought of a daughter not being able to go to her parent, and feeling the need to find a back alley doctor.

I don't feel like I am a bad person. I think that I am compasionate, and I know that I have morals. Maybe not the same morals as every single person on this board, but, at night.. I only answer for myself.

I appreciate everyone welcoming me. I will be back, fiestier than ever, I'm sure. =)

Keebs, you are quite the genius.

And you KNOW I agree.

I know. LOL =)

 

[BleedingHeart]

I absolutely agree. Women are entitled to a safe abortion.

On January 22, 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court announced its decision in Roe v. Wade, a challenge to a Texas statute that made it a crime to perform an abortion unless a woman's life was at stake. The case had been filed by "Jane Roe," an unmarried woman who wanted to safely and legally end her pregnancy. Siding with Roe, the court struck down the Texas law. In its ruling, the court recognized for the first time that the constitutional right to privacy "is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy" (Roe v. Wade, 1973).

How does that not encompass late term abortions as well?
Source: Planned Parenthood: Roe v. Wade: Its history and impact.

 

[Keebs]

Well hon, thats why the PBA ban won't last long. It's an infringment on our safety.

I have to say that I was never a big fan of "partial birth abortions" its a hedious proceedure. But, If my life is at stake, I'm sorry.. I'm going to choose my right to live.

All Bush did was protect my right to death.

 

[BleedingHeart]

'Partial Birth' is not the most likeable procedure. However, the issue here is legal...And, as we see in Roe v. Wade- that overturned laws that are trying to be re-enacted by banning 'partial birth.'

Anyway, The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. No one is above it, and everyone must abide by it and it's provisions, Republicans included!

 

[Keebs]

I couldn't agree more! Which is why I support the NRA!!! LOL Do you see now? I think I have a viable point. Hell, I think I'm the smartest person in the world!

JEN FOR PRESIDENT

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Keebs
I have to say that I was never a big fan of "partial birth abortions" its a hedious proceedure. But, If my life is at stake, I'm sorry.. I'm going to choose my right to live.

All Bush did was protect my right to death.

Actually, in the case of partial birth abortions, the bill/law DOES look out for the life of the mother:

"This subsection does not apply to a partial -birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself."

Did you not read it in it's entirety?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:1:./temp/~c108cXbOle::

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Keebs
I couldn't agree more! Which is why I support the NRA!!! LOL Do you see now? I think I have a viable point. Hell, I think I'm the smartest person in the world!

I think your point was based on the right of the mother to have that option should her life be in danger. That option is clearly accounted for, which I think defuses your point. I would like to think the "smartest person in the world" would have at least read the entire bill before passing judgement.

 

[ajwps]

Very touchy subject, but I think most will agree with this decision. I'm pro choice for the most part, but you have to have some sort of limitations.

Where does the concept of the human soul come? Do humans believe that we have something special or does it come from some specific ideation of ancient man?

If there is such a thing, when does this soul enter the human. Is there anything or than a personal opinion as to when this event occurs?

If late term abortions are performed who thinks that the almost completely formed baby is actually endowed with anything other than all mammal have in utero?

It seems that this topic is very subjective for everyone depending on their own 'religious' beliefs.

 

[5stringJeff]

Wow... miss a weekend on the board and you have ten pages to catch up on...

First, Janeen, I can't imagine what you went through, but I have to say that my views on the issue are based on theoretical/legal/moral arguments, not a real-life experience, so please forgive me if they seem crass or impersonal.

Anyway, since the original thread was about PBA, not abortion in general, I still think the ban is a good thing, for the following reasons:
The ban covers only one specific procedure.
PBA is not used except for the 2nd/3rd trimesters, during which, according to Roe v. Wade, the state has an interest in regulating abortions.
In many PBAs, the baby is old enough to survive outside the womb on equipment, like many premature babies.
There is a specific exception in the ban to allow the procedure if the mother's life is endangered.

Now I'm sure that we could debate the morality of abortion, Roe v. Wade, adoption, etc. ad nauseum, but I really just wanted to talk about the PBA ban.

So shape up or I'll take my thread and go home!!!!

Just kidding.

 

[jon_forward]

Bravo Ladies, being pro-life your bio's just reinforce my strong dislike for abortion and abortionist. My twin bro and I were adopted at birth in the late 50's. we weighed a total of 5 lbs together, is a wonder either one of us made it but we both did. after the first year or so the health problems went away and we were your almost normal lil boys.[Identical twins can be firstclass MF's trust me] I believe that if abortion were readily available back then we would be sooooo not here today!!!! My real mom already had 2 kids and the family situation wasnt the best. actually met her in the late 70's. she always wondered bout us and regreted given us up but knew it was the right thing to do. sorry got off on my bio but I was tryin to make a point.DID I?????

 

[ajwps]

It may have been better if you and twin brother were soooo not here today.

1) Abortion on demand is the law of the land (USA).
2) The sanctity of a human soul is solely (no pun intended) derived from the Old Testament Bible.
3) There is nothing in the New Testament Bible of Jesus Christ about Abortion. Even though abortion was a common practice all around Jesus during his life on earth.
4) There are two places in the Old Testament Bible that authorizes the same Roe vs. Wade law in the United States.

KJV

Genesis 2:7

And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. i.e., Life of the human comes only after the baby takes it's first breath.

Exodus 21:22-23

22 If two men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet the woman live: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay a fine as the judges determine. (for the loss of a future worker)
23 And if the woman dies, then thou shalt give life for life, (ergo: the breathing woman is killed then capital punishment may be involved)

But then again what does the bible have to do with what each person feels about the issue of life, the taking of a non-soul cell formation or why just not kill the doctors who perform abortion?

I do not advocate abortion for just any whim, but who am I to question the above seeming instructions from the same book where we believe that humans have something different than monkeys, mice or slugs?

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jon_forward
Bravo Ladies, being pro-life your bio's just reinforce my strong dislike for abortion and abortionist. My twin bro and I were adopted at birth in the late 50's. we weighed a total of 5 lbs together, is a wonder either one of us made it but we both did. after the first year or so the health problems went away and we were your almost normal lil boys.[Identical twins can be firstclass MF's trust me] I believe that if abortion were readily available back then we would be sooooo not here today!!!! My real mom already had 2 kids and the family situation wasnt the best. actually met her in the late 70's. she always wondered bout us and regreted given us up but knew it was the right thing to do. sorry got off on my bio but I was tryin to make a point.DID I?????

Hi Jon,

Interesting points. I've had several friends who were adopted who felt exactly like you about abortion. But you can look at it another way - if you're father had not impregnated your mother you wouldn't be here either. Should we ban birth control on this ground? If your fertilized egg had been discharged from your mother's womb, as about 75% of fertilized eggs are during the first two weeks after conception, you wouldn't be here either. And if your mother had had an abortion, likewise.

We're all glad that decisions our parents made led to our existence, but I don't think such things make a case for or against abortion.

 

[janeeng]

jon, that was a really touching story! Glad you and your Brother are here today! Your real Mom made a choice, rather than to abort you, to give you life and allow someone who wanted kids raise you and let you live. Yes, if your Dad and Mom didn't have sex or whatever it is that ajws is trying to say, no, you guys never would have been conceived, yes, she could have lost your both anyway, but she chose to rather say "hey, we messed up, it's easier to just abort you both, she allowed you two to come into this world and do what she thought was RIGHT" and there are so many people wanting to adopt, however, the system does make it hard on some people, the expense, living conditions, etc...I knew someone that wanted a child so bad, she wasn't married, but she had PLENTY of money, a great career, beautiful home, but because she wasn't married, they wouldn't let you adopt - how wrong that is!!! Children deserve a home, rather than sit in a foster home, even if it is just for a Mom to raise. Think about a Mother who gives birth without the Husband, or divorce, they keep the child, so why should adoption be any different?

For abortion, yes, I think there are some circumstances that maybe there is a reason for it - RAPE! 100% without a doubt that the Mother could die giving birth - these are the 2 only reasons today that I find it a reason, and even then, there have been woman that still went ahead with it.

Today, too many young girls are getting pregnant because of not having the knowledge of safe sex, bringing up, the talk on sex, etc...I was in the hospital giving birth to my Daughter, I was 35 and the girl 2 rooms down was 14!!!! 14, my God you gotta be kidding me, although she did keep the baby, because of her Mom, I just find it horrible at that age to even think about it. Parents NEED to talk to their kids YOUNG because if not, this is what could happen! and it's either MORE abortions, or more kids being raised by kids or having their parents do it for them. You can't stop young girls from going out and having sex, but if you talk to your kids about it, it's possible that you can enlighten them and maybe change what COULD come out of it.