Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Hossfly]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

 

[Eloy]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

 

[rylah]

The Phillistines are extinct, no one today represents their culture.
However the modern Jews are the representatives of those Judean sects, observing culture and rituals which were practiced long before that sect.

You are mistaken; the Qumran sect is believed to have been outside Jewish orthodoxy and it perished. The Christian sect, on the other hand, flourished.

Orthodoxy or not the rituals modern Jews are practicing today practicing came long before any orthodoxy.
No christian sect flourished, they perished under the Roman prosecutions. All we have today is a Roman pagan sect of Paul- nothing in common with the christians you bring up.

Anyway it's not the christians who demand the scrolls, those are arab muslims calling themselves fillastines, who have decades long history of destroying anything not muslim.

Sorry to inform you but Christianity grew from a small Jewish sect in Jerusalem. Christians see in the Dead Sea Scrolls the writings of their forebears.

What point are you trying to make? That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican? Sorry, that makes no sense. Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct. As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.

Yes; the Vatican is a much safer place to keep the Dead Sea Scrolls than Jerusalem.

You're just trying to justify more theft by those who already STOLE and RAPED enough of the Jewish heritage.

Here's an idea- let's take ALL of world artifacts of all nations and place them in Antarctica- 'cause it's the "safest". Let's move the Vatican library, statues and the pope there, further away from Catholics, you know 'cause catholics seem to endanger their heritage by taking part in too many wars....

 

[rylah]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

 

[Eloy]

You are mistaken; the Qumran sect is believed to have been outside Jewish orthodoxy and it perished. The Christian sect, on the other hand, flourished.

Orthodoxy or not the rituals modern Jews are practicing today practicing came long before any orthodoxy.
No christian sect flourished, they perished under the Roman prosecutions. All we have today is a Roman pagan sect of Paul- nothing in common with the christians you bring up.

Anyway it's not the christians who demand the scrolls, those are arab muslims calling themselves fillastines, who have decades long history of destroying anything not muslim.

Sorry to inform you but Christianity grew from a small Jewish sect in Jerusalem. Christians see in the Dead Sea Scrolls the writings of their forebears.

What point are you trying to make? That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican? Sorry, that makes no sense. Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct. As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.

Yes; the Vatican is a much safer place to keep the Dead Sea Scrolls than Jerusalem.

You're just trying to justify more theft by those who already STOLE and RAPED enough of the Jewish heritage.

Here's an idea- let's take ALL of world artifacts of all nations and place them in Antarctica- 'cause it's the "safest". Let's move the Vatican library, statues and the pope there, further away from Catholics, you know 'cause catholics seem to endanger their heritage by taking part in too many wars....

The English have a similar idea as yours except they would like to have all the world's treasures in the British Museum.

 

[Eloy]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

Forgive me but your anti-Palestinian tone prevents me from answering.

 

[rylah]

Orthodoxy or not the rituals modern Jews are practicing today practicing came long before any orthodoxy.
No christian sect flourished, they perished under the Roman prosecutions. All we have today is a Roman pagan sect of Paul- nothing in common with the christians you bring up.

Anyway it's not the christians who demand the scrolls, those are arab muslims calling themselves fillastines, who have decades long history of destroying anything not muslim.

Sorry to inform you but Christianity grew from a small Jewish sect in Jerusalem. Christians see in the Dead Sea Scrolls the writings of their forebears.

What point are you trying to make? That the Dead Sea Scrolls should be housed in the Vatican? Sorry, that makes no sense. Although there were similarities between Christianity and the Essene sect of Judaism, which created the Scrolls, ultimately the Scrolls came from a JEWISH sect, albeit now defunct. As far as I know, the Scrolls are remnants of the Books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. None of the New Testament Books are included in that discovery.

Yes; the Vatican is a much safer place to keep the Dead Sea Scrolls than Jerusalem.

You're just trying to justify more theft by those who already STOLE and RAPED enough of the Jewish heritage.

Here's an idea- let's take ALL of world artifacts of all nations and place them in Antarctica- 'cause it's the "safest". Let's move the Vatican library, statues and the pope there, further away from Catholics, you know 'cause catholics seem to endanger their heritage by taking part in too many wars....

The English have a similar idea as yours except they would like to have all the world's treasures in the British Museum.

The idea of taking others' heritage is YOURS in this discussion, we weren't talking about the British.

 

[rylah]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

Forgive me but your anti-Palestinian tone prevents me from answering.

Another convenient running away from simple questions.
In other words you have nothing....Just don't let the Jews have their heritage.

Do you have ANYTHING related to to the OP?

 

[Shusha]

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

The Temple Mount Sifting Project was revealed some priceless treasures. Its makes one want to weep with knowing so much was torn apart and destroyed. All of the volunteers who dedicate their time to this project are a blessing. And under the careful guardianship of the Jewish people, priceless artifacts from all eras and of all faiths are being found, rescued, preserved and protected.

Obviously the Arab Muslims are not responsible caretakers. And no priceless Jewish artifacts should be given over to their keeping.

 

[Challenger]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people? A digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".

There's a difference between legaly buying artifacts and looting them in wartime.

The bottom line here is that none of the Muslims are clamoring for the ancient Koran fragment held in a British university, but since the Jews have something written by their ancestors way back in time, the Muslims can't stand for them to possess it. Apparently you also can't stand for the Jews to have something either.

The bottom line, as you put it, is that the scrolls were looted not bought. If the Zionists want them so much they can offer a fair price and negotiate a settlement, and if that's not possible they should return the scrolls to their rightful owners.

 

[Challenger]

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people? A digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".

There's a difference between legaly buying artifacts and looting them in wartime.

The bottom line here is that none of the Muslims are clamoring for the ancient Koran fragment held in a British university, but since the Jews have something written by their ancestors way back in time, the Muslims can't stand for them to possess it. Apparently you also can't stand for the Jews to have something either.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were purloined from a museum in Occupied Palestine.

They came from a cave in the Judean desert.

...which was part of Jordan at the time.

 

[Challenger]

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.

It is believed by scholars that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls became extinct about the first century CE.

It is believed by scholars (and reasonable people) that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls wa a Jewish sect, living in Judea.

A sect now extinct.

The Phillistines are extinct, no one today represents their culture.
However the modern Jews are the representatives of those Judean sects, observing culture and rituals which were practiced long before that sect.

No they don't. They practice Rabbinical Judaism, not Temple Judaism. How many animals do modern Jewish people sacrifice to their deity, for example? Do they still stone people to death?

 

[Challenger]

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

The Temple Mount Sifting Project was revealed some priceless treasures. Its makes one want to weep with knowing so much was torn apart and destroyed. All of the volunteers who dedicate their time to this project are a blessing. And under the careful guardianship of the Jewish people, priceless artifacts from all eras and of all faiths are being found, rescued, preserved and protected.

Obviously the Arab Muslims are not responsible caretakers. And no priceless Jewish artifacts should be given over to their keeping.

Why obviously? Palestinians looked after the scrolls for 20 years and made them available to scholars from all over the world.

 

[Challenger]

Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls

Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.

What past? What history? You mean the made up Zionist mythology that you push with such enthusiasm? Modern Jewish people are part of a religious group with little to no connection to Palestine other than the fact that for a while Jerusalem was the cult centre.

Most Judeans were never "exiled" by the Romans (who, incidentally, did a thorough job of exterminating the Jewish religious rebel fanatics they came across), they remained and eventually converted to Christianity, then Islam. The real Judeans are the native Palestinians ethnically cleansed by the European Zionist colonists, or living under their brutal occupation.

 

[Hollie]

Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls

Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.

What past? What history? You mean the made up Zionist mythology that you push with such enthusiasm? Modern Jewish people are part of a religious group with little to no connection to Palestine other than the fact that for a while Jerusalem was the cult centre.

Funny stuff and typically befuddled for the flaming Jew hater. You acknowledge the Jewish connection to Jerusalem and in the same confused attempt at constructing a coherent sentence, try to deny that connection.

Really, sweetie. Your Internet gee-had is a bust.

 

[RoccoR]

Challenger, Shusha, RYLAH, FOREVERYOUNG436, HOSSFLY, ELOY, et al,

There are a couple of things we glean here, in this discussion.

• There are those who would believe anything that would further the anti-Israeli cause.
• There are those who would believe that ancient artifacts written (predominately) in Hebrew and Aramaic (with a small percentage written in other languages) have no common source within the developing Jewish Culture. As if Hebrew was principle language of the Arab at between 200 BC and 200 AD when the bulk of the scrolls were created.
• There were found Books of Deuteronomy and Isaiah, as well as Psalms attributed to King David (Humm, just imagine - I'm hard pressed to associate King David with being an Arab or zionist myth) and Joshua. Are they not early Key Jewish Personalities?
  • What was the name of David's Kingdom? (I forget!)
• There are those who would ignore the discovery of ancient Hebrew text (like The Isaiah Scroll - making it a bit of a mystery, but not Arab) that are a millennium older than any other known copy.

Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls

Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.

What past? What history? You mean the made up Zionist mythology that you push with such enthusiasm? Modern Jewish people are part of a religious group with little to no connection to Palestine other than the fact that for a while Jerusalem was the cult centre.

Most Judeans were never "exiled" by the Romans (who, incidentally, did a thorough job of exterminating the Jewish religious rebel fanatics they came across), they remained and eventually converted to Christianity, then Islam. The real Judeans are the native Palestinians ethnically cleansed by the European Zionist colonists, or living under their brutal occupation.

(COMMENT)

I am still looking for actual evidence that would support the claim that the discovery of these artifacts, which demonstrate a connection to the present day Jewish Culture, are "Zionist Mythology." Zionism was established as a political platform in mid-19th Century; most closely associated with Theodor Herzl, and the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The mid-20th Century discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls would seem to rule-out any Mythology associated with the Independence of Israel.

Those that rewrite the history of the Middle East, are unlikely to be convinced by any facts or discoveries.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Eloy]

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

Forgive me but your anti-Palestinian tone prevents me from answering.

Another convenient running away from simple questions.
In other words you have nothing....Just don't let the Jews have their heritage.

Do you have ANYTHING related to to the OP?

There is no mention of "balestinians" in the OP. Do you have spellcheck, I wonder.

 

[Shusha]

Just another ridiculous attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from our past and history.

What past? What history? You mean the made up Zionist mythology that you push with such enthusiasm? Modern Jewish people are part of a religious group with little to no connection to Palestine other than the fact that for a while Jerusalem was the cult centre.

Jerusalem has been the Jewish people's "cult centre" for three thousand years. It remains the Jewish people's "cult centre" today and will be for the foreseeable future. G-d willing, it will be the Jewish "cult centre" for at least another three thousand years.

 

[mudwhistle]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

They can demand in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills first.

 

[Shusha]

So what's your stance on balestinians destroying the artifacts around the Temple Mount, using bulldozers to just pile what they dig around it into garbage sites?

The Temple Mount Sifting Project was revealed some priceless treasures. Its makes one want to weep with knowing so much was torn apart and destroyed. All of the volunteers who dedicate their time to this project are a blessing. And under the careful guardianship of the Jewish people, priceless artifacts from all eras and of all faiths are being found, rescued, preserved and protected.

Obviously the Arab Muslims are not responsible caretakers. And no priceless Jewish artifacts should be given over to their keeping.

Why obviously? Palestinians looked after the scrolls for 20 years and made them available to scholars from all over the world.

Oh my. You DO know what the Temple Mount Sifting Project IS, don't you?

It is nine tons of "debris" which was removed from an irreplaceable thousands-years-old archaeological site containing hundreds of thousands of objects, all of which are now out-of-context and many which may have been intact and have now been destroyed. The information lost is staggering.

Do you really believe that the destruction of a precious ancient archaeological site isn't OBVIOUSLY poor caretakership?

Speaking specifically of the scrolls, their mishandling was also significant -- from them being "restored" and held together with adhesive tape, to sealing them in manila envelopes, to mildew growth -- which resulted in the destruction or deterioration of many fragments. It wasn't until Israel became caretakers of the scrolls that their deterioration was arrested.