Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Hossfly]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

Good that you feel that way. Now you can go to others forums covering the Middle East and tell the readers the names of the many things which were destroyed or you can park yourself on this thread and show the readers that the Jews are not involved with anything destroyed in the other Middle East countries so why should you bother..

 

[Eloy]

If "Temple Mount" takes capital letters then so does Palestinians.
However, I wrote earlier in this thread that desecration of historic importance is wrong and such sites ought to be respected and this goes for Jewish tombstones as well.

I speak Hebrew and the word 'palestine' came from a Hebrew verb which means- to invade. I don't think a verb deserves a capital letter.
On the other hand Temple Mount is the sacred place for the Jews, and an ancient historic site that deserves full respect and awe.

So how do you agree with the Romans' desecration, destruction and theft of ancient ritual tools like the Menorah? Should the Jews demand Vatican to return them?

That was too long ago to worry about.

Actually i think i get you- this issue has nothing to do with you personally, it's not your heritage, not your language or culture, therefore you can stand aside and play judge with other people's treasures just to be amused.

You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.

No advocating for Vatican doesn't make you anymore objective, quiet the opposite. It makes you an advocate for those who actually RAPED the Jewish culture, scripture, flesh, and still hold the artifacts they've stolen from the Temple.
A clear pattern in sight.

You do your cause no good by seeming to be anti-Catholic.

 

[Shusha]

You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.

Really? So, objectively, which people should have caretakership of precious cultural artifacts? That culture or another?

And, objectively, if a guardian fails to live up to standards of care, should they continue to act in that role?

 

[Eloy]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

Good that you feel that way. Now you can go to others forums covering the Middle East and tell the readers the names of the many things which were destroyed or you can park yourself on this thread and show the readers that the Jews are not involved with anything destroyed in the other Middle East countries so why should you bother..

You write like someone who has a lot of experience on internet forums.

 

[Eloy]

You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.

Really? So, objectively, which people should have caretakership of precious cultural artifacts? That culture or another?

And, objectively, if a guardian fails to live up to standards of care, should they continue to act in that role?

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

 

[Shusha]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

 

[rylah]

I speak Hebrew and the word 'palestine' came from a Hebrew verb which means- to invade. I don't think a verb deserves a capital letter.
On the other hand Temple Mount is the sacred place for the Jews, and an ancient historic site that deserves full respect and awe.

So how do you agree with the Romans' desecration, destruction and theft of ancient ritual tools like the Menorah? Should the Jews demand Vatican to return them?

That was too long ago to worry about.

Actually i think i get you- this issue has nothing to do with you personally, it's not your heritage, not your language or culture, therefore you can stand aside and play judge with other people's treasures just to be amused.

You are correct in the sense that I am neither a Jew nor a Muslim which means I can have a measure of objectivity.

No advocating for Vatican doesn't make you anymore objective, quiet the opposite. It makes you an advocate for those who actually RAPED the Jewish culture, scripture, flesh, and still hold the artifacts they've stolen from the Temple.
A clear pattern in sight.

You do your cause no good by seeming to be anti-Catholic.

Why because I remind uncomfortable history facts of Christianity in their relationship to Jews? Showing a clear pattern common to Muslims and Christians in relation to Jewish historic artifacts?

 

[Eloy]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.

 

[Shusha]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.

Why would it be insensitive? What is the reason? Remembering we are talking about intangible cultural heritage here with the Dead Sea Scrolls and not buildings.

 

[Eloy]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.

Why would it be insensitive? What is the reason? Remembering we are talking about intangible cultural heritage here with the Dead Sea Scrolls and not buildings.

Right to possess artifacts should not depend on their portability, surely.

 

[Shusha]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.

Why would it be insensitive? What is the reason? Remembering we are talking about intangible cultural heritage here with the Dead Sea Scrolls and not buildings.

Right to possess artifacts should not depend on their portability, surely.

Answer the questions.

 

[Phoenall]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people? A digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".

There's a difference between legaly buying artifacts and looting them in wartime.

So you are saying that Jordan was wrong in the first place for claiming something that was the worlds to protect. The scrolls are accessible to all while under the care of the Israeli's, they were not when under the care of the arab muslims. How many have been destroyed while the arab muslims had them in their care, seeing as this is a normal activity for muslims.

 

[Phoenall]

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes. It must be under the control of the culture which created it. Else it serves no purpose.

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

Then you have no problem in them taking over Mecca, Medina and America as the people that created those place are now extinct. Kick all the foriegn invaders out and hand the treasures back to the descendants of those that lived there before.

The descendants of the Jews who wrote the scrolls are very much alive and they are the only custodians that should be accepted

 

[Eloy]

As a rule of thumb, artifacts should stay where they were found.

Why?

Because of their associations with the area. For example, it is both ridiculous and insensitive to the current inhabitants if one were to transport the pyramids from Egypt to Nevada.

Why would it be insensitive? What is the reason? Remembering we are talking about intangible cultural heritage here with the Dead Sea Scrolls and not buildings.

Right to possess artifacts should not depend on their portability, surely.

Answer the questions.

If you ask one question at a time it would help.
You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.
To get back to the questions, I wonder if I am right that it is really one question and the second one is added for clarification. That is how I read your post. You asked why I consider it insensitive to pilfer artifacts. I am not an expert in the preservation of precious artifacts so, as a layman, I believe artifacts and such treasures resonate with the people who have come after the artifacts' creators. Knowing that they were born in the same place as the treasures, in this case, the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were found in what is today the Occupied Palestinian West Bank and but for the occupation they would still be there. Occupation does not confer a right on the occupier to loot archaeological artifacts and I believe Israel was wrong to take them away. The custodians of the Dead Sea Scrolls should be the Palestinians. I accept that I am no expert.

 

[Hossfly]

In the book "Jews, God and History", the author stated that the Essene sect, which produced the Scrolls, was a Jewish sect but very Messianic, like Christianity. But it was pre-Christian.

Sure. The idea that a Messiah WILL come or even MUST come is a Jewish idea. The defining idea of Christianity, which separates it from Judaism, is that the Messiah DID come.

An Evangelical poster once said that there was a joke going around about the Messiah. When the Messiah arrives in Israel, the taxi driver asks him if this is his first or second visit.

All this trying to prove that the scrolls didn't belong to the Jews is mind boggling. If this happened in the time of Jesus and his Essene Sect, he and they would be amazed how the anti-Semites can't bear to see the Jews have part of their heritage. I would be willing to bet that the anti-Semites didn't give two hoots when those Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban. No Jews were involved so why should they waste their time on something like that.

The desecration of ancient art and artifacts amounts to the destruction of humanity's heritage ... our history

Good that you feel that way. Now you can go to others forums covering the Middle East and tell the readers the names of the many things which were destroyed or you can park yourself on this thread and show the readers that the Jews are not involved with anything destroyed in the other Middle East countries so why should you bother..

You write like someone who has a lot of experience on internet forums.

I take advantage of some of the different forums available to us. I don't attempt to park myself on one thread.

 

[Shusha]

You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.

In point of fact, it was you who brought up the pyramids of Egypt.

To get back to the questions, I wonder if I am right that it is really one question and the second one is added for clarification.

Not clarification, exactly. But the two questions are related. In particular it was intended to point out who might be invested in preserving a cultural heritage and who might be hostile to preserving a cultural heritage.

You asked why I consider it insensitive to pilfer artifacts.

I most certainly did not. I asked why artifacts, specifically transportable artifacts (intangible cultural heritage), should be considered attached to a piece of dirt (or in this case a cave) when considering guardianship.

I am not an expert in the preservation of precious artifacts so, as a layman, I believe artifacts and such treasures resonate with the people who have come after the artifacts' creators.

We agree. The artifacts and treasure resonate very strongly with the people who came after. The question is WHICH people?

I do not know your background, but I am Scots/Irish. My families have been living in the US and Canada for about 300 years. All things Scots and Irish resonate with me. I feel attached to them. They are my history. And even though my family has been living in Canada for hundreds of years, I do not feel especially attached to First Nations cultures. Those cultures do not resonate deeply with me. Why? Because it is not my culture. It is not my history. There is nothing connecting us but a patch of land that we have both, at various times, live on. That is not enough. Nations come and go, political boundaries change.

And I don't for a second believe that Arab Muslim Palestinians resonate with ancient Jewish writings. Instead, their hostility towards all things Jewish is quite apparent.

Here are a few excerpts from the 2003 Convention for the Safe-Guarding of Intangible Cultural Heritage:

Recognizing that the processes of globalization and social transformation, alongside the conditions they create for renewed dialogue among communities, also give rise, as does the phenomenon of intolerance, to grave threats of deterioration, disappearance and destruction of the intangible cultural heritage, in particular owing to a lack of resources for safeguarding such heritage,

Recognizing that communities, in particular indigenous communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals, play an important role in the production, safeguarding, maintenance and re-creation of the intangible cultural heritage, thus helping to enrich cultural diversity and human creativity,

...


The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices, representations, expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the instruments, objects, artifacts and cultural spaces associated therewith – that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural heritage. This intangible cultural heritage, transmitted from generation to generation, is constantly recreated by communities and groups in response to their environment, their interaction with nature and their history, and provides them with a sense of identity and continuity, thus promoting respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. For the purposes of this Convention, consideration will be given solely to such intangible cultural heritage as is compatible with existing international human rights instruments, as well as with the requirements of mutual respect among communities, groups and individuals, and of sustainable development.


Notice the language used in this Convention: the intangible cultural heritage belongs to communities. It is transmitted from generation to generation within these communities. It does not belong to political bodies or to States. It belongs to the people who are interact with it, and pass it along and are continually re-creating it. It is part of the people's LIVING culture.

Tell me, in what way will the Arab Muslim Palestinians live this cultural legacy? How will they pass it from generation to generation? How will they interact with it? How does it help them develop a sense of continuity with the past?

Worse than that, given the Arab Muslim Palestinians open hostility towards Jewish history -- why would we believe that they are invested in preserving it, let alone cherishing it, living it, transferring it to future generations?

 

[Eloy]

You asked two questions before you went on to introduce a difference between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pyramids of Egypt.

In point of fact, it was you who brought up the pyramids of Egypt.

To get back to the questions, I wonder if I am right that it is really one question and the second one is added for clarification.

Not clarification, exactly. But the two questions are related. In particular it was intended to point out who might be invested in preserving a cultural heritage and who might be hostile to preserving a cultural heritage.

You asked why I consider it insensitive to pilfer artifacts.

I most certainly did not. I asked why artifacts, specifically transportable artifacts (intangible cultural heritage), should be considered attached to a piece of dirt (or in this case a cave) when considering guardianship.

I am not an expert in the preservation of precious artifacts so, as a layman, I believe artifacts and such treasures resonate with the people who have come after the artifacts' creators.

We agree. The artifacts and treasure resonate very strongly with the people who came after. The question is WHICH people?

I do not know your background, but I am Scots/Irish. My families have been living in the US and Canada for about 300 years. All things Scots and Irish resonate with me. I feel attached to them. They are my history. And even though my family has been living in Canada for hundreds of years, I do not feel especially attached to First Nations cultures. Those cultures do not resonate deeply with me. Why? Because it is not my culture. It is not my history. There is nothing connecting us but a patch of land that we have both, at various times, live on. That is not enough. Nations come and go, political boundaries change.

And I don't for a second believe that Arab Muslim Palestinians resonate with ancient Jewish writings. Instead, their hostility towards all things Jewish is quite apparent.

Here are a few excerpts from the 2003 Convention for the Safe-Guarding of Intangible Cultural Heritage:

Recognizing that the processes of globalization and social transformation, alongside the conditions they create for renewed dialogue among communities, also give rise, as does the phenomenon of intolerance, to grave threats of deterioration, disappearance and destruction of the intangible cultural heritage, in particular owing to a lack of resources for safeguarding such heritage,

Recognizing that communities, in particular indigenous communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals, play an important role in the production, safeguarding, maintenance and re-creation of the intangible cultural heritage, thus helping to enrich cultural diversity and human creativity,

...


The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices, representations, expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the instruments, objects, artifacts and cultural spaces associated therewith – that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural heritage. This intangible cultural heritage, transmitted from generation to generation, is constantly recreated by communities and groups in response to their environment, their interaction with nature and their history, and provides them with a sense of identity and continuity, thus promoting respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. For the purposes of this Convention, consideration will be given solely to such intangible cultural heritage as is compatible with existing international human rights instruments, as well as with the requirements of mutual respect among communities, groups and individuals, and of sustainable development.


Notice the language used in this Convention: the intangible cultural heritage belongs to communities. It is transmitted from generation to generation within these communities. It does not belong to political bodies or to States. It belongs to the people who are interact with it, and pass it along and are continually re-creating it. It is part of the people's LIVING culture.

Tell me, in what way will the Arab Muslim Palestinians live this cultural legacy? How will they pass it from generation to generation? How will they interact with it? How does it help them develop a sense of continuity with the past?

Worse than that, given the Arab Muslim Palestinians open hostility towards Jewish history -- why would we believe that they are invested in preserving it, let alone cherishing it, living it, transferring it to future generations?

Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinians, though they have converted to Christianity and Islam, are the offspring of the same people that were there when the scrolls were written. The European Zionists that invaded and colonized Palestine have more right to them than the native people?

 

[Shusha]

Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.

Ok. Wow.

#1. And I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling. Maybe I need to yell. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY. THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY. We clear, yet?

#2. The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures. Come on! Temple Mount Sifting Project! The hell?! They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history. And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance. They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage. And you support this? Why? Why would you support this?

#3. Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage. That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation! So that we could be protected. Wow. Are you that clueless? Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French? Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese?

But to ease your mind, let's ask. Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts? Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten): Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority? (I vote Israel, btw).

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians, though they have converted to Christianity and Islam, are the offspring of the same people that were there when the scrolls were written. The European Zionists that invaded and colonized Palestine have more right to them than the native people?

The Palestinians (and by that you mean the Arab Muslim and Christian Palestinians), having converted to Christianity and to Islam, no longer have any but the most distant relationship to the Jewish Holy Books. They rejected them then and they continue to reject them now. In rejecting them, they have removed themselves from any claim to them.

If you disagree with me, I demand you turn over all textual historical documents of the Christian and Muslim faiths to the Baha'i immediately. If you do not agree to this -- you are nothing but a hypocrite.