Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[Shusha]

Let me be absolutely clear. Anything which prevents people from accessing or worshiping freely according to their religious faith is unethical. Anything which gives exclusive access of a shared (cough cough) Holy Place to only ONE religious faith is unethical.

The REASON why Israel and the world permits such an unethical status quo is because there are billions of Muslims in the world who will throw a hissy fit if they don't get their way.

And let me be REAL clear what I mean by "hissy fit" -- it would unleash a violent, murderous, killing-of-innocents jihad against Israel and the Jewish people. It would start a global war. It would raise a whole new generation or two or ten of ISIS followers.

 

[Hossfly]

You are mistaken; cultural artifacts are often so important that they are recognized as belonging to all people and are held in trust as a world heritage. To make the false claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong only to Israelis is breathtakingly ignorant.

The scrolls belong to the Jewish people, like any other sacred artifacts of Judaism belong to the Jewish people. What do Muslims have to do with Hebrew scrolls?

Are you history thieves or just pure insane, Pro-Palestinians?

Since the Scrolls were housed in an East Jerusalem museum and illegally seized by the Israelis in 1967, it can be argued that Palestine has the highest claim on their custodial care in their proposed capital of East Jerusalem.

Again I say, saying this, is like saying a baby is "seized" by his mother because it was naturally "hosted" in the maternity ward.

To use your analogy, the seizure of the Scrolls was more the the kidnapping of a newborn by a crazed maternity ward midwife. I hope this helps you understand.

Not only the comparison is wrong, it makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

Lipush, it really is an amazing phenomenon to behold how when some posters find the USMB, right away they rush to this forum and shed their crocodile tears about the "Palestinians." overlooking naturally the hundreds of thousands of people who have been killed in the rest of the Middle East in recent years. I guess it is par for the course for one of them to bring up "European shtetls"" when discussing the Dead Sea Scrolls. Arafat must be rolling over in his grave and laughing hysterically over how many people really believe there were Palestinian people who in actuality were just called Arabs or Syrians. The KGB taught Arafat well.

Defining Palestine and the Palestinians - Discover the Networks

 

[Hossfly]

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

I wonder if Eloy is quite OK with this going ooing on? Can you imagine people seeing something like this while visiting the Vatican?



Does anyone think Eloy can give us a good answer as to why Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran even once (a night journey in a dream on a magic horse to some far-off place not even named is not what someone would call a fact) and is mentioned hundreds of times in the Bible.

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem

 

[Hossfly]

Eloy, et al,

No, I did not say that at all.

Eloy, et al,

Yes, this is all true, but not all Palestinian.

...
When we speak of the Arab Palestinians, what do we find unique to them?

Immediately, Palestinians have a claim on Palestine. They have a right to self-determination.

(COMMENT)

Everyone (all Peoples) has the Right to Self-Determination. There is nothing in that which is unique to the Arab Palestinians. You can draw an ark centered on Jerusalem, with a radius of 320 miles (almost to the outskirts of Aleppo, Syria - around to the far outskirts of Cairo) and find a half dozen Arabs of varying cultures; --- but they all have the same right to determination. It is a common law and right applicable to all peoples of all culture.

What is it that is unique to the Arab Palestinians that needs absolute preservation?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is the most important mosque in Jerusalem and the third holiest site in Islam.

(COMMENT)

The original form of the al-Aqsa Mosque was constructed by the Umar of Mecca, the second of the first four Rashidun Caliphs. The Sunni Rashidun Caliphate assumed sovereign control (640 AD) of all Mesopotamia (Iraq), and Syria (to include what we call today --- Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and Jordan). But by the end of the first Millennium AD, the Fatimid Empire, centered in Egypt, took control of Jerusalem (970 AD), after defeating the Army of the Abbasid Caliphate.

I do not believe that anything in Jerusalem can be said --- unique to the Palestinians.

On entering Jerusalem in 1517 the ottoman sultan Selim was entrusted with keys to Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. A delegation of Christian clerics presented him with a scroll containing the original covenant of Umar, guaranteeing them rights over the Church of the Holy places. Selim pressed them to his face and kissed them, confirming his intention to honor Umar's word.
The Furthest Mosque : The History of Al ñ Aqsa Mosque
​

Most Respectfully,
R

You gave a whole list of places which you associate with particular peoples but you have a problem accepting that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in Palestine where Palestinians worship.

(COMMENT)

Who maintained the Mosque?
Who restored the mosque?
Who is working on the Mosque today?

International law regards the Kingdom of Jordan as the authority over the Al-Asqa Mosque.
Jordan’s King Vows to Defend Al Aqsa Mosque Against ‘Repeated Israeli Violations’

Moshe Dayan made the biggest mistake after the Jews captured Jerusalem in 1967.

Moshe Dayan’s colossal blunder - The Jerusalem Connection Report

 

[Eloy]

I have already told you that the status quo will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.

How is it ethical for only ONE religion to have access to the Temple Mount which is, at best, a shared sacred site and at worst, a stolen sacred site?

How it is the status quo in any way ethical?

I know now that you mean to trap me so all I can say is that it is ethical to do what pleases everyone which is rare enough in such a fractious area. There is enough which divides the Israelis and Palestinians without attempting to add to the list.

 

[Shusha]

I have already told you that the status quo will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.

How is it ethical for only ONE religion to have access to the Temple Mount which is, at best, a shared sacred site and at worst, a stolen sacred site?

How it is the status quo in any way ethical?

I know now that you mean to trap me so all I can say is that it is ethical to do what pleases everyone which is rare enough in such a fractious area. There is enough which divides the Israelis and Palestinians without attempting to add to the list.

Its not a trap if you are comfortable in your own belief system.

 

[Phoenall]

Perhaps when posting, instead of trying to trap other people, you were to write what you mean, you will not come across as someone who believes in the superiority of your religion over others' with unique rights.

I have never written anything which even remotely, even the tiniest bit, suggests the superiority of my religion over another's. Ever. I know this for certain because I do not believe that my religion is superior to other religious faiths. (Though obviously I find great value for myself, personally, in my faith).

So clearly, your idea that I believe my religion is superior to other's comes from elsewhere and not from my own statements of beliefs. I would suggest that it comes from a longstanding anti-semitic canard.

Should we talk about unique rights? Well, of course we should, but you will avoid it just as you have avoided all my other questions.

Why should the people practicing the faith of Islam have the unique right of access to their most Holy Place and to our most Holy Place? Shouldn't Holy Places be shared? Why or why not?

I have already told you that the status quo will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.

But not by the various islamonazi authorities, who see everything as theirs because their false prophet told them it was.

Explain again why you support and defend the islamonazi stance that Jerusalem belongs to islam ?

 

[Phoenall]

I have already told you that the status quo will be honored by the religious as well as the political Israeli authorities. In this instance I think ethics has prevailed.

How is it ethical for only ONE religion to have access to the Temple Mount which is, at best, a shared sacred site and at worst, a stolen sacred site?

How it is the status quo in any way ethical?

I know now that you mean to trap me so all I can say is that it is ethical to do what pleases everyone which is rare enough in such a fractious area. There is enough which divides the Israelis and Palestinians without attempting to add to the list.

So all you have is a non answer rather than tell the truth and admit that as far as you are concerned the Jews have no rights

 

[Shusha]

So all you have is a non answer rather than tell the truth and admit that as far as you are concerned the Jews have no rights

Its worse than that. He is saying not only that Jews have no rights -- but that Jews are happy being oppressed and that the oppression of Jews pleases everyone.

 

[Challenger]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

 

[Shusha]

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes. It must be under the control of the culture which created it. Else it serves no purpose.

 

[Hossfly]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people? A digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".

 

[Eloy]

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes. It must be under the control of the culture which created it. Else it serves no purpose.

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

 

[Shusha]

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.

 

[Eloy]

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.

It is believed by scholars that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls became extinct about the first century CE.

 

[Shusha]

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.

It is believed by scholars that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls became extinct about the first century CE.

It is believed by scholars (and reasonable people) that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls wa a Jewish sect, living in Judea.

 

[Eloy]

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

I assure you the Jewish people are not extinct.

It is believed by scholars that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls became extinct about the first century CE.

It is believed by scholars (and reasonable people) that the sect which created the Dead Sea Scrolls wa a Jewish sect, living in Judea.

Yes; it was once upon a time. It became extinct. The Christian sect which became a great religion had its origins in the same vicinity about then.

 

[Hollie]

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes. It must be under the control of the culture which created it. Else it serves no purpose.

Sometimes the people who created world heritage artifacts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are extinct. The United Nations can exercise control over such treasures.

Uh, obviously not. From the Taliban destroying Buddhist artifacts in Afghanistan to ISIS destroying the city of Palmyra in Syria to the Arabs-Moslems (posing as Pal'istanians) desecrating the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.... Are we seeing a common thread that links those who have a record of desecration of cultural history?

It's quite obvious that the UN is unable and unwilling to take the steps necessary to prevent a specific politico-religious ideology from destroying the cultural heritage of others.

 

[Challenger]

Yes, you read that right -- the Arab Palestinians are going to make a formal request to UNESCO to have "their" cultural heritage, the Dead Sea Scrolls, returned to them.

The audacity of it is shocking.

Next they'll be asking for their Talmud back.

Seems a reasonable request to me, the scrolls were found in what was then considered Jordan, and have since been stolen during the Zionist conquest of 1967, so they are technically loot or plunder, and Jordan has every right to ask for them back.

Oh, it's the Iraqis that could have a claim on the Talmud, seeing as it's a plagiarised rehash of Ancient Babylonian beliefs.

If you are going to take that attitude, can you show us where people in Great Britain are clamoring to return this to the proper people? A digital piece of it should not be sufficient.

Prince Charles warns of cultural destruction on UAE visit - BBC News

As is stated in the article:

"The original Koran fragment, at least 1,370 years old, remains in the University of Birmingham".

There's a difference between legaly buying artifacts and looting them in wartime.

 

[Challenger]

The preservation and caretakership of valuable cultural heritage can not be a function of changing political landscapes. It must be under the control of the culture which created it. Else it serves no purpose.

Zionism didn't create the Dead Sea Scrolls