Palestinian Authority seeks ICC war crimes case against Israel

[toastman]

RoccoR is one of the most informative, civilized and gentle posters on this board.

Many of the pro-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian posters around here, at many times, were left dumbfounded when crossed with his well based, clean from incitements, sources.

You stating he's a nazi is rude and offending, and shows you have very little idea about who to pounce and who to listen to.

Don't make fun of yourself any longer and apologize to him while you're at it.

Oh shut-up!

He try's to put lipstick on a pig by defending Israeli aggression and crimes against humanity.

It's like saying, "Hitler was a victim of bad PR!"

Wow, you loonie lefties are posting more fucked up thngs by the day.
First off, you Hitler comparison is, as usual pathetic and weak (like you)

Second, not only are you wrong about Rocco, but just because you don't agree with him, doesn't mean you need to resort to insults. Very childish of you and Beezle

 

[Discombobulated]

Rocco, you polite Nazi you,

As the aggressor, Israel has no right to self defence.
As the defender and resister, Gaza DOES.

Hamas may not be the nicest club in the world, but it is an ARMED RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, which comes out of the population, so of course has support within it.

Hamas did try to go the democratic route, but with an Israeli / US embargo on any dealings with them since they won the election, coupled by the Israeli sponsored attempted coup there by Fatah, they were forced onto a war footing, then a siege footing.

Hamas, may still be guilty of war crimes.

THAT MAKES NO GODDAMN DIFFERENCE TO ISRAEL COMMITTING WAR CRIMES.
This is not a situation where you can say "Well the other boys were being bad tooo",

Suck it up and face your crimes.

Over 200 rockets and mortars fired by hams into Israel in the months preceding the invasion on July 4th is hardly a defensive move by hamas. You cant claim that they were retaliations to Israeli attacks as many were many days after Israeli retaliations to the rockets. Look at the list dildo provided and you will see that Israel responded to hamas rockets within 12 hours, then no fire from hamas for 2 or 3 days. Don't forget the evidence of hamas using human shields that is a war crime, and any deaths of civilians in this situation is another war crime by hamas. Try reading the Geneva conventions and see just what war crimes hamas has committed, and how many times it has committed perjury in respect to civilian deaths. Just one example is the UN school allegedly targeted by the IDF that the UN now know is a hamas LIE. An enquiry will show that hamas has LIED repeatedly about the deaths and the majority are terrorists, militia, hamas leaders and human shields

Nice of the UN to provide the Palestinians with the money and resources needed to build tunnels and launch sites.......our tax dollars at work.

 

[pbel]

RoccoR is one of the most informative, civilized and gentle posters on this board.

Many of the pro-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian posters around here, at many times, were left dumbfounded when crossed with his well based, clean from incitements, sources.

You stating he's a nazi is rude and offending, and shows you have very little idea about who to pounce and who to listen to.

Don't make fun of yourself any longer and apologize to him while you're at it.

Oh shut-up!

He try's to put lipstick on a pig by defending Israeli aggression and crimes against humanity.

It's like saying, "Hitler was a victim of bad PR!"

Wow, you loonie lefties are posting more fucked up thngs by the day.
First off, you Hitler comparison is, as usual pathetic and weak (like you)

Second, not only are you wrong about Rocco, but just because you don't agree with him, doesn't mean you need to resort to insults. Very childish of you and Beezle

America, controlled by AIPAC right wing ZioNuts are using their influence to re-arm the Israeli State which is intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians like the Nazis of Germany in Guernica is certainly a valid comparison...However, Obama has the vote at the UN...

Toast, you and Israel have nothing to be proud of! We lefties know the world is sick and tired of Israel and will soon vote full membership to Palestine at the UN and this time the US and her allies will not veto...

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

You and this "NAZI" kick you are on is merely an attempt to demonize Israel with no supporting context.

America, controlled by AIPAC right wing ZioNuts are using their influence to re-arm the Israeli State which is intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians like the Nazis of Germany in Guernica is certainly a valid comparison...However, Obama has the vote at the UN...

(COMMENT)

America is not controlled by AIPAC. Just because there is a strong support base for Israel in the US doesn't mean that AIPAC is the mechanism. There is an Italian-American Club, but that doesn't mean the IACV controls America.

There is no evidence that Israel has the "intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians." This is a totally unfounded allegation.

With each passing day, new evidence emerges that cast a shadow on Palestinian allegations.

Toast, you and Israel have nothing to be proud of! We lefties know the world is sick and tired of Israel and will soon vote full membership to Palestine at the UN and this time the US and her allies will not veto...

(COMMENT)

Maybe the UN will, and maybe it will not. I wish I had your crystal ball and was able to see into the future with such clarity.

I'm not sure that the Palestinians deserve any more recognition given the chaos of the State, the inability of it to stand on its own, and the incapability to forge a peace through friendly relations. Even its fellow Arab States, who are normally aligned against Israel, are beginning to question the wisdom of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

In any event, the Resistance Movement is the aggressor once its activities threaten beyond its borders.

Are you still pimping that propaganda?

You know there is no border around Gaza.

Why is it that to you , the truth is propaganda?

Gaza has an international border with Egypt. The rest is just an armistice line.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Maybe! Maybe I should have used the phrase "international lines of demarcation."

Are you still pimping that propaganda?

You know there is no border around Gaza.

Why is it that to you , the truth is propaganda?

Gaza has an international border with Egypt. The rest is just an armistice line.

(OBSERVATION)

Gaza is not a state. It has no Treaty with Egypt. The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

SOURCE: UNISPAL The Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Government of the State of Israel

Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.​

SOURCE: A/RES/25/2625 24 October 1970

And I'll use one of your favorites:

ARTICLE 1

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:

a ) a permanent population;
b ) a defined territory;
c ) government; and
d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.​

SOURCE: Department of International Law, OAS, WashDC

(COMMENT)

If, as you say, it is all "Armistice Lines," then neither Gaza or the West Bank can be a "State" because they have no "defined territory."

However, the "duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines," is still just as valid. If Gaza fires across the "Armistice Line" it is still a violation of international law.

You are attempting to inject the idea that there is no demarcation internationally recognized. This is patently false.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

pbel, et al,

You and this "NAZI" kick you are on is merely an attempt to demonize Israel with no supporting context.

America, controlled by AIPAC right wing ZioNuts are using their influence to re-arm the Israeli State which is intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians like the Nazis of Germany in Guernica is certainly a valid comparison...However, Obama has the vote at the UN...

(COMMENT)

America is not controlled by AIPAC. Just because there is a strong support base for Israel in the US doesn't mean that AIPAC is the mechanism. There is an Italian-American Club, but that doesn't mean the IACV controls America.

There is no evidence that Israel has the "intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians." This is a totally unfounded allegation.

With each passing day, new evidence emerges that cast a shadow on Palestinian allegations.

Toast, you and Israel have nothing to be proud of! We lefties know the world is sick and tired of Israel and will soon vote full membership to Palestine at the UN and this time the US and her allies will not veto...

(COMMENT)

Maybe the UN will, and maybe it will not. I wish I had your crystal ball and was able to see into the future with such clarity.

I'm not sure that the Palestinians deserve any more recognition given the chaos of the State, the inability of it to stand on its own, and the incapability to forge a peace through friendly relations. Even its fellow Arab States, who are normally aligned against Israel, are beginning to question the wisdom of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

You don't need a crystal ball, only common sense and elementary Political Science


Netanyahu asks US to help Israel avoid war crime charges | New York Post

Netanyahu asks US to help Israel avoid war crime charges

 

[Phoenall]

pbel, et al,

You and this "NAZI" kick you are on is merely an attempt to demonize Israel with no supporting context.

America, controlled by AIPAC right wing ZioNuts are using their influence to re-arm the Israeli State which is intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians like the Nazis of Germany in Guernica is certainly a valid comparison...However, Obama has the vote at the UN...

(COMMENT)

America is not controlled by AIPAC. Just because there is a strong support base for Israel in the US doesn't mean that AIPAC is the mechanism. There is an Italian-American Club, but that doesn't mean the IACV controls America.

There is no evidence that Israel has the "intent on expelling and terrifying killing and maiming civilians." This is a totally unfounded allegation.

With each passing day, new evidence emerges that cast a shadow on Palestinian allegations.

Toast, you and Israel have nothing to be proud of! We lefties know the world is sick and tired of Israel and will soon vote full membership to Palestine at the UN and this time the US and her allies will not veto...

(COMMENT)

Maybe the UN will, and maybe it will not. I wish I had your crystal ball and was able to see into the future with such clarity.

I'm not sure that the Palestinians deserve any more recognition given the chaos of the State, the inability of it to stand on its own, and the incapability to forge a peace through friendly relations. Even its fellow Arab States, who are normally aligned against Israel, are beginning to question the wisdom of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

You don't need a crystal ball, only common sense and elementary Political Science


Netanyahu asks US to help Israel avoid war crime charges | New York Post

Netanyahu asks US to help Israel avoid war crime charges

And the evidence kindly provided by hamas and the Palestinians themselves like the ones shown here.

Two Pallywood duds in one day! - Thomas Wictor

 

[Phoenall]

Are you still pimping that propaganda?

You know there is no border around Gaza.

Why is it that to you , the truth is propaganda?

Gaza has an international border with Egypt. The rest is just an armistice line.

So which Palestinian leader signed the treaty giving this border ? Can you provide a link to this monumental event that no one else has been able to determine.

Until you can show that Palestine had a leadership and government post 1919 when the land changed from Ottoman ownership to LoN ownership you are just spouting the LIEXS of an ISLAMONAZI charlatan. Even the arab league refused to allow them to have free determination and declare independence under UN res 181. This they finally achieved in 1988

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gaza is not a state. It has no Treaty with Egypt. The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

OK, let's take this apart.

"Gaza is not a state."

True, it is a part of Palestine.

"It has no Treaty with Egypt."

Also true, Palestine inherited its international border upon the demise of the Ottoman Empire and it was never at war with Egypt. It was not necessary to define an already existing, and undisputed, international border with a treaty. It remains the international border between Egypt and Palestine.

The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

I am not sure which piece of "border" you are talking about here. We should note, however, that there was no armistice line between Egypt and Israel. That line was between Egyptian forces and Israeli forces. If that line was between Egypt and Israel it would be a border not an armistice line.

 

[Phoenall]

Gaza is not a state. It has no Treaty with Egypt. The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

OK, let's take this apart.

"Gaza is not a state."

True, it is a part of Palestine.

"It has no Treaty with Egypt."

Also true, Palestine inherited its international border upon the demise of the Ottoman Empire and it was never at war with Egypt. It was not necessary to define an already existing, and undisputed, international border with a treaty. It remains the international border between Egypt and Palestine.

The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

I am not sure which piece of "border" you are talking about here. We should note, however, that there was no armistice line between Egypt and Israel. That line was between Egyptian forces and Israeli forces. If that line was between Egypt and Israel it would be a border not an armistice line.

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gaza is not a state. It has no Treaty with Egypt. The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

OK, let's take this apart.

"Gaza is not a state."

True, it is a part of Palestine.

"It has no Treaty with Egypt."

Also true, Palestine inherited its international border upon the demise of the Ottoman Empire and it was never at war with Egypt. It was not necessary to define an already existing, and undisputed, international border with a treaty. It remains the international border between Egypt and Palestine.

The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

I am not sure which piece of "border" you are talking about here. We should note, however, that there was no armistice line between Egypt and Israel. That line was between Egyptian forces and Israeli forces. If that line was between Egypt and Israel it would be a border not an armistice line.

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

You need to reread my post.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are good for a laugh.

Gaza is not a state. It has no Treaty with Egypt. The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

OK, let's take this apart.

"Gaza is not a state."

True, it is a part of Palestine.

"It has no Treaty with Egypt."

Also true, Palestine inherited its international border upon the demise of the Ottoman Empire and it was never at war with Egypt. It was not necessary to define an already existing, and undisputed, international border with a treaty. It remains the international border between Egypt and Palestine.

(COMMENT)

No, there was no State of Palestine to inherent anything. The boundaries that defined the territory under the Mandate were discretionary on the part of the Allied Powers.

The territory was passed to the Allied Powers under the treaty, as apportioned through a separate arrangement by France and the UK (Allied Powers).

The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

I am not sure which piece of "border" you are talking about here. We should note, however, that there was no armistice line between Egypt and Israel. That line was between Egyptian forces and Israeli forces. If that line was between Egypt and Israel it would be a border not an armistice line.

(COMMENT)

Don't try to be tricky! It doesn't work for you. I gave you a map and the Treaty language.

Military Forces are subordinate to the State to which they belong. A disengagement plan for the forces is a subset of the Armistice Agreement concluded between states.

While it is true that the Armistice Line was set for the "purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move," it was a demarcation set between states. The treaty on the other hand, set an "international boundary." The Treaty (1979) was established well before the Independence of Palestine (1988).

For the President of the Security Council:

“I have the honour to inform you that an armistice agreement between Egypt and Israel has been signed this morning, 24 February at Rhodes.

The text of the agreement is as follows:

EGYPTIAN-ISRAELI GENERAL ARMISTICE AGREEMENT
PREAMBLE​

The Parties to the present agreement, responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948 calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an Armistice; having decided to enter into negotiations under United Nations Chairmanship concerning the implementation of the Security Council resolutions of 4 and 16 November 1948; and having appointed representatives empowered to negotiate and conclude an Armistice Agreement;

SOURCE: S/1264/Corr.1 23 February 1949

Like I said, it will be interesting how the ICC, if it accepts jurisdiction at all, will assemble all this information.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Phoenall, et al,

You have to understand that our friend "P F Tinmore" is arguing from the position that ALL of the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine in 1948, is Palestine (including Israel). Palestine, in his view, is the greater claim that encompasses all. Israel is an intrusion on to Palestinian Sovereignty (All of the former Mandate Territory).

It is the position of HAMAS as replicated in the Covenant, and it is the position of the Palestinian Authority as replicated in the Charter.

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

You need to reread my post.

(COMMENT)

P F Tinmore's position is, that from the frontier of Egypt, to the frontier of Lebanon is all Palestine; with no borders in between. And in some respects, this is true. There are no documented borders. This is not to say that in reality, the international community doesn't recognized that Israel has "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

However, my argument is based on the fact that the "Tinmore Claim" is merely a claim unrealized. At no time has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated clear and unambiguous sovereignty, control, or leadership over any of the territory since before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That the claim itself if fallacious and un-demonstrable in any real and concrete sense. Even today, the chaotic government called the "State of Palestine" is a loosely connected (so called) "Unity Government" consisting of HAMAS, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Fatah; as demonstrated in Cairo this past week in the negotiation over a ceasefire. This is not a real demonstration of "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

Let me say this again, not since before the Ottoman Empire has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated any "jurisdiction" and "effective control" of any territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the frontier of Lebanon to the frontier of Egypt; not for a thousand years and not today.

It is illusionary.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

P F Tinmore, Phoenall, et al,

You have to understand that our friend "P F Tinmore" is arguing from the position that ALL of the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine in 1948, is Palestine (including Israel). Palestine, in his view, is the greater claim that encompasses all. Israel is an intrusion on to Palestinian Sovereignty (All of the former Mandate Territory).

It is the position of HAMAS as replicated in the Covenant, and it is the position of the Palestinian Authority as replicated in the Charter.

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

You need to reread my post.

(COMMENT)

P F Tinmore's position is, that from the frontier of Egypt, to the frontier of Lebanon is all Palestine; with no borders in between. And in some respects, this is true. There are no documented borders. This is not to say that in reality, the international community doesn't recognized that Israel has "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

However, my argument is based on the fact that the "Tinmore Claim" is merely a claim unrealized. At no time has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated clear and unambiguous sovereignty, control, or leadership over any of the territory since before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That the claim itself if fallacious and un-demonstrable in any real and concrete sense. Even today, the chaotic government called the "State of Palestine" is a loosely connected (so called) "Unity Government" consisting of HAMAS, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Fatah; as demonstrated in Cairo this past week in the negotiation over a ceasefire. This is not a real demonstration of "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

Let me say this again, not since before the Ottoman Empire has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated any "jurisdiction" and "effective control" of any territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the frontier of Lebanon to the frontier of Egypt; not for a thousand years and not today.

It is illusionary.

Most Respectfully,
R

So, the Palestinians lost their rights to the land when the West defeated the Ottomans?

Keep dancing for Zion Rocco, screw indigenous rights no matter who controls the land. A sure Recipe for War!

 

[fanger]

'Help Israel avoid war crimes charges,' Netanyahu urges US lawmakers

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu appealed to American legislators to help Israel stave off what is likely to be a concerted global push to haul the country’s military and political leaders to international courts for alleged war crimes committed in Gaza, The New York Post reported on Thursday.

According to the Post, during a meeting on Wednesday with members of Congress who are visiting Israel as guests of AIPAC, Netanyahu urged the American representatives to summon their powers in assisting Israeli officials who wish to avoid trial by the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

'Help Israel avoid war crimes charges,' Netanyahu urges US lawmakers | JPost | Israel News

 

[fanger]

If the Israelis are innocent then they should look forward to proving that what they did, and the tactics they employed, were within the limits of international law!

 

[Phoenall]

OK, let's take this apart.

"Gaza is not a state."

True, it is a part of Palestine.

"It has no Treaty with Egypt."

Also true, Palestine inherited its international border upon the demise of the Ottoman Empire and it was never at war with Egypt. It was not necessary to define an already existing, and undisputed, international border with a treaty. It remains the international border between Egypt and Palestine.

The "International Boundary" just happens to follow the same line as the discontinued "Armistice Line" between Egypt and Israel (without prejudice to the Palestinians).

I am not sure which piece of "border" you are talking about here. We should note, however, that there was no armistice line between Egypt and Israel. That line was between Egyptian forces and Israeli forces. If that line was between Egypt and Israel it would be a border not an armistice line.

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

You need to reread my post.

You need to stop reading ISLAMONAZI lies and try reading the truth. The land passed from Ottoman ownership into LoN ownership. In the process the LoN defined borders to facilitate the creation of trans Kordan and Syria, once these two areas came into existence under the LoN mandate Palestine ceased to exist. At no time did a nation of Palestine exist until the PLO declared so in 1988, and according to the UN and customary international law Palestine does not exist as a nation because it refuses to take responsibility for its own destiny and determination. It has failed to act in a manner of peaceful co-existence with its neighbours as laid down in the UN charter it has recently signed. Until the UN accepts Palestine as a full blown member it's nationhood will be is dispute.

So produce the evidence that the Palestinian leaders signed a treaty giving the nation of Palestine borders that include Israel, Syria and trans Jordan. As they are the borders you keep plugging on here.

 

[pbel]

In a nutshell you are saying that there is no actual border between Israel and gaza and Egypt and gaza. All that exists is the border between Israel and Egypt that was negotiated and is now customary international law.

You need to reread my post.

You need to stop reading ISLAMONAZI lies and try reading the truth. The land passed from Ottoman ownership into LoN ownership. In the process the LoN defined borders to facilitate the creation of trans Kordan and Syria, once these two areas came into existence under the LoN mandate Palestine ceased to exist. At no time did a nation of Palestine exist until the PLO declared so in 1988, and according to the UN and customary international law Palestine does not exist as a nation because it refuses to take responsibility for its own destiny and determination. It has failed to act in a manner of peaceful co-existence with its neighbours as laid down in the UN charter it has recently signed. Until the UN accepts Palestine as a full blown member it's nationhood will be is dispute.

So produce the evidence that the Palestinian leaders signed a treaty giving the nation of Palestine borders that include Israel, Syria and trans Jordan. As they are the borders you keep plugging on here.

Ownership did not denigrate when the Ottomans relinquished Political Control...You Phoenall write like a lawyer mudding the facts!

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Phoenall, et al,

You have to understand that our friend "P F Tinmore" is arguing from the position that ALL of the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine in 1948, is Palestine (including Israel). Palestine, in his view, is the greater claim that encompasses all. Israel is an intrusion on to Palestinian Sovereignty (All of the former Mandate Territory).

It is the position of HAMAS as replicated in the Covenant, and it is the position of the Palestinian Authority as replicated in the Charter.

You need to reread my post.

(COMMENT)

P F Tinmore's position is, that from the frontier of Egypt, to the frontier of Lebanon is all Palestine; with no borders in between. And in some respects, this is true. There are no documented borders. This is not to say that in reality, the international community doesn't recognized that Israel has "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

However, my argument is based on the fact that the "Tinmore Claim" is merely a claim unrealized. At no time has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated clear and unambiguous sovereignty, control, or leadership over any of the territory since before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That the claim itself if fallacious and un-demonstrable in any real and concrete sense. Even today, the chaotic government called the "State of Palestine" is a loosely connected (so called) "Unity Government" consisting of HAMAS, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Fatah; as demonstrated in Cairo this past week in the negotiation over a ceasefire. This is not a real demonstration of "jurisdiction" and "effective control."

Let me say this again, not since before the Ottoman Empire has the Arab Palestinian demonstrated any "jurisdiction" and "effective control" of any territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the frontier of Lebanon to the frontier of Egypt; not for a thousand years and not today.

It is illusionary.

Most Respectfully,
R

So, the Palestinians lost their rights to the land when the West defeated the Ottomans?

Keep dancing for Zion Rocco, screw indigenous rights no matter who controls the land. A sure Recipe for War!

NO the arab muslims lost their rights to the land when they were defeated in battle over 1,000 years ago. Since that time they have had no legal right to the land other than that given in UN res 181. At the time of the end of the mandate the Palestinian arab muslims owned less than 1% of the whole of Palestine. The Christians owned slightly more that 1% while the Jews owned 7%, the rest was in LoN ownership.

By the way the evidence points to the arab muslims being recent migrants to Palestine as under Ottoman ownership the arab muslims were loathe to migrate to a dead desolate land with no inhabitants but Jews and Christians.