Palestine Today

[Coyote]

I think this illustrates the problem with IP. Mods are right. It's a cess. It's an echo chamber filled with two factions: those who support the Palestinians solely because they hate Jews on the one hand, and those who see antisemitism in anyone who criticizes Israel or supports the Palestinian rights to self determination on the other. In any dispute - each side firmly supports its own come hell or high water. Standards applied to one's own side are not applied to the other. Is there any value at all in discussion here? I don't think so. I think I understand why most have left it.

Shrug.

There is no one on Team Palestine (you excepted) who fundamentally starts with the position that the Jewish people have every right to self-determination, sovereignty and a state.

Does she accept Israel as a Jewish state?

My understanding is that she does not.

Really?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"I think it was smart that you're wary of using the word "terrorism," and if you talk about the cycle of violence, or "an eye for an eye," you could be perpetuating the idea that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a balanced conflict, instead of a largely unarmed people against the fourth most powerful military in the world." — Rachel Corrie
Rest in power. Never forgotten. — with Chadly Dridi.

 

[Coyote]

I think this illustrates the problem with IP. Mods are right. It's a cess. It's an echo chamber filled with two factions: those who support the Palestinians solely because they hate Jews on the one hand, and those who see antisemitism in anyone who criticizes Israel or supports the Palestinian rights to self determination on the other. In any dispute - each side firmly supports its own come hell or high water. Standards applied to one's own side are not applied to the other. Is there any value at all in discussion here? I don't think so. I think I understand why most have left it.

Shrug.

The mods would do well to have a better understanding of what antisemitism is and how it is different from “criticism of Israel”. I haven’t seen anyone on this board criticize Israel in any detailed legitimate way.

I disagree. It isn’t the mods lack of understanding, it is the crap being leveled by those such as Rylah whenever Israel is criticized. And there HAS been legitimate criticism and discussion (that he labels anti semitic) on such issues as: settlements, inequality, what the new national law means for non Jewish minorities, settler violence on Palestinians and the rights and wrongs of boycotts, Jerusalem. All topics that should be discussable from both sides without the side opposing Israel being labeled anti Semitic. That isn’t to say that too often antisemitism doesn’t enter into it it does, as does equally hateful anti-Muslim rhetoric, which largely goes unchallenged.

[quoteI was involved in another discussion forum before I came to this one, and I assure you it is possible to have deep, nuanced, intelligent conversations on this subject.

Jews and Israelis have spent nearly a hundred years supporting Arab Palestinian self-determination and as far as I have seen in this board no Jew or Israeli rejects that idea in principle. Though there is concern (correctly) that this is not achievable at the present time. (Other than Jordan).[/quote]

I think you are sometimes blind to it from some on your side. Those who call for enforceable expulsions (maybe they are just trolling), those who support a “guest status” citizenship (dhimmi) for non Jews.

Personally, I think most have left it because no one is discussing the conflict and it’s solutions. Every discussion here boils down to whether or not the Jewish people “deserve” what every other people on the planet deserve. We can’t get past that here. There is no one on Team Palestine (you excepted) who fundamentally starts with the position that the Jewish people have every right to self-determination, sovereignty and a state.

I agree that Team Palestine is lacking, but there are those here on Team Israel that do not support the position that Palestinians have those same rights. They may not openly say it but their comments and discussion ultimately reveal it. Much like there are those on Team Palestine who avoid coming right out and saying what they really feel about Jewish rights. Look at Holly or Indeependent for example. Palestinians already have a state, they should go to Jordan, etc etc.

I think that if we could get past that fundamental issue, then Rocco, Sixties, rylah, Hollie, Mindful, ForeverYoung, myself and others could have a real discussion about the actual issues of the conflict.

But who the hell are we supposed to have those discussions with?

You won’t have those discussions with Mindful and Holly. Holly’s main contribution is anti Islamic trolling. She and Mindful are as much a part of the discussion problem as those on the pro Pali side. Rylah? We will have to disagree on that. You, Rocco, FoeverYoung, Sixties are it on Team Israel.

 

[Coyote]

I think what you don’t understand is this. Using the word MF is rude and crude but this vulgarity is unfortunately a sign of a generation. I do not like it but I am seeing it too much. When Tlaib originally said I think it was a private conversation? Either way, marketing T-shirt’s with is not what I like to see and I would not buy it.

Just as bad, in my opinion, is an elected representative yelling at the President “you lie” as he was talking. That to is beyond the pale of acceptable behavior.

I am almost 60. I wasn’t raised to accept this kind of behavior. It shouldn’t be tolerated. But I think I am outnumbered.

Oh... so calling the President a MOTHER FUCKER is “ ok” because it was a “ private conversation?” How does everyone know about it then?

Making “ excuses” for her Vulgar language because of her “ generation?” If a young Jewish politician called her that name you wouldn’t be making excuses; you would crucify them
A elected Representative yelling “ You lie” is just as bad as a elected Representative calling the President MF, laughing about it and making shirts with her foul mouth words?
Please, go back to drinking your Palestinian Kool Aid

I don’t care what people say in private conversations. Do you?

I did say I think marketing a T-shirt was not appropriate (assuming she was the one who did so).

I don’t think it has anything to do whether one is Jewish or not so why bring that up?

Is it ok to yell you lie at tbe President?

A “ private conversation “ that everyone knows about?
You say you don’t condone what is written on her T shirts but don’t condemn it the way you condemn the Rep. that yelled “ You lie”

It has nothing to do with being Jewish; Just using it as an example of your double standard which starts by making excuses
If a Jewish Rep. did what she did to her you would crucify them for their racism and bigotry

Private conversations get broken into all the time don't they?

And yes. There is a difference. Yelling something to the presidents face is different then saying something to your child.

What double standard? If a Jewish person had done it, I would regard it no differently.

You have no understanding of American politics.

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

 

[Mindful]

There certainly won't be a discussion with me, given the character assassinations.

And the 'criterion' (?) set up for aforementioned "discussions".

 

[admonit]

I think this illustrates the problem with IP. Mods are right. It's a cess. It's an echo chamber filled with two factions: those who support the Palestinians solely because they hate Jews on the one hand, and those who see antisemitism in anyone who criticizes Israel or supports the Palestinian rights to self determination on the other. In any dispute - each side firmly supports its own come hell or high water. Standards applied to one's own side are not applied to the other. Is there any value at all in discussion here? I don't think so. I think I understand why most have left it.

Shrug.

There is no one on Team Palestine (you excepted) who fundamentally starts with the position that the Jewish people have every right to self-determination, sovereignty and a state.

Does she accept Israel as a Jewish state?

My understanding is that she does not.

Really?

Do you accept Israel as a Jewish state?

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is no one on Team Palestine (you excepted) who fundamentally starts with the position that the Jewish people have every right to self-determination, sovereignty and a state.

Does she accept Israel as a Jewish state?

My understanding is that she does not.

Really?

Do you accept Israel as a Jewish state?

Sure. But I don’t agree with the new National Law.

I accept it as majority Jewish in culture and ethnicity, and like any state it has the right to define itself.

When it comes to rights of self determination, I disagree that those rights are limited to only the Jewish people. I support strong protections of minority rights (which I do for any nation) and full equality for all citizens. I think Israel is by far the leader in the region for these aspects but the national law is problematic to me.

When it comes to rights there is one thing that is always missing. According to the rules of state succession, all of the residents of a former state will become citizens of the new state. IOW, all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel shall become Israeli citizens.

 

[USAF 2023]

Oh... so calling the President a MOTHER FUCKER is “ ok” because it was a “ private conversation?” How does everyone know about it then?

Making “ excuses” for her Vulgar language because of her “ generation?” If a young Jewish politician called her that name you wouldn’t be making excuses; you would crucify them
A elected Representative yelling “ You lie” is just as bad as a elected Representative calling the President MF, laughing about it and making shirts with her foul mouth words?
Please, go back to drinking your Palestinian Kool Aid

I don’t care what people say in private conversations. Do you?

I did say I think marketing a T-shirt was not appropriate (assuming she was the one who did so).

I don’t think it has anything to do whether one is Jewish or not so why bring that up?

Is it ok to yell you lie at tbe President?

A “ private conversation “ that everyone knows about?
You say you don’t condone what is written on her T shirts but don’t condemn it the way you condemn the Rep. that yelled “ You lie”

It has nothing to do with being Jewish; Just using it as an example of your double standard which starts by making excuses
If a Jewish Rep. did what she did to her you would crucify them for their racism and bigotry

Private conversations get broken into all the time don't they?

And yes. There is a difference. Yelling something to the presidents face is different then saying something to your child.

What double standard? If a Jewish person had done it, I would regard it no differently.

You have no understanding of American politics.

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

You’re the one. Excuse what she did by defending it as a “ cultural change” for an elected Rep. comparing it to calling the President a liar

 

[Shusha]

When it comes to rights there is one thing that is always missing. According to the rules of state succession, all of the residents of a former state will become citizens of the new state. IOW, all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel shall become Israeli citizens.

Sure. And the reason why they didn't is because of the Arab Palestinian desire for their own, separate, self-determination (and hostilities).

 

[P F Tinmore]

When it comes to rights there is one thing that is always missing. According to the rules of state succession, all of the residents of a former state will become citizens of the new state. IOW, all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel shall become Israeli citizens.

Sure. And the reason why they didn't is because of the Arab Palestinian desire for their own, separate, self-determination (and hostilities).

You cannot base your citizenship on speculation.

 

[Coyote]

I don’t care what people say in private conversations. Do you?

I did say I think marketing a T-shirt was not appropriate (assuming she was the one who did so).

I don’t think it has anything to do whether one is Jewish or not so why bring that up?

Is it ok to yell you lie at tbe President?

A “ private conversation “ that everyone knows about?
You say you don’t condone what is written on her T shirts but don’t condemn it the way you condemn the Rep. that yelled “ You lie”

It has nothing to do with being Jewish; Just using it as an example of your double standard which starts by making excuses
If a Jewish Rep. did what she did to her you would crucify them for their racism and bigotry

Private conversations get broken into all the time don't they?

And yes. There is a difference. Yelling something to the presidents face is different then saying something to your child.

What double standard? If a Jewish person had done it, I would regard it no differently.

You have no understanding of American politics.

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

You’re the one. Excuse what she did by defending it as a “ cultural change” for an elected Rep. comparing it to calling the President a liar

Yelling at the president “you lie” is an absolute breach. If you don’t see it that way then take off your partisan lenses. We have a president that engages in rude childish insult fests, elected representatives (more than just Tlaib) who openly use vulgarities and a public that is increasingly tolerant of it and even endorses it as some sort on non-pc “genuineness”. THAT is a cultural change. You don’t even notice because your focus is on our Muslim politicians.

 

[USAF 2023]

A “ private conversation “ that everyone knows about?
You say you don’t condone what is written on her T shirts but don’t condemn it the way you condemn the Rep. that yelled “ You lie”

It has nothing to do with being Jewish; Just using it as an example of your double standard which starts by making excuses
If a Jewish Rep. did what she did to her you would crucify them for their racism and bigotry

Private conversations get broken into all the time don't they?

And yes. There is a difference. Yelling something to the presidents face is different then saying something to your child.

What double standard? If a Jewish person had done it, I would regard it no differently.

You have no understanding of American politics.

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

You’re the one. Excuse what she did by defending it as a “ cultural change” for an elected Rep. comparing it to calling the President a liar

Yelling at the president “you lie” is an absolute breach. If you don’t see it that way then take off your partisan lenses. We have a president that engages in rude childish insult fests, elected representatives (more than just Tlaib) who openly use vulgarities and a public that is increasingly tolerant of it and even endorses it as some sort on non-pc “genuineness”. THAT is a cultural change. You don’t even notice because your focus is on our Muslim politicians.

This is a " private conversation?" This isn't an absolute breach? Keep telling yourself that

 

[USAF 2023]

Nebraska Democrat fired for saying he was 'glad' Rep. Scalise was shot - CNNPolitics

Talk about Trump's insults and big mouth? This isn't the only time Democrats wished Death on Republicans.
Take off your partisan sun glasses

 

[P F Tinmore]

Private conversations get broken into all the time don't they?

And yes. There is a difference. Yelling something to the presidents face is different then saying something to your child.

What double standard? If a Jewish person had done it, I would regard it no differently.

You have no understanding of American politics.

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

You’re the one. Excuse what she did by defending it as a “ cultural change” for an elected Rep. comparing it to calling the President a liar

Yelling at the president “you lie” is an absolute breach. If you don’t see it that way then take off your partisan lenses. We have a president that engages in rude childish insult fests, elected representatives (more than just Tlaib) who openly use vulgarities and a public that is increasingly tolerant of it and even endorses it as some sort on non-pc “genuineness”. THAT is a cultural change. You don’t even notice because your focus is on our Muslim politicians.

This is a " private conversation?" This isn't an absolute breach? Keep telling yourself that

Tlaib was raised in the ghettos of Detroit where that language is not at all unusual.

 

[P F Tinmore]

From Bethlehem to London: Palestinian children celebrate their identity through dance

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

'A Land for All': An Israeli professor's vision for a solution to the Palestine-Israel conflict

 

[P F Tinmore]

Jaffa activist: A Jewish and democratic state is an oxymoron

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[USAF 2023]

How do you know it was just a “ private conversation? If a Jewish person made up a shirt like that you would not view it any differently?

It was something she said to her child. That is usually a private conversation. If a Jewish person made up such a shirt it would make no difference. A person’s religion doesn’t alter the acceotability of the content. Why do you think it would?

Comparing what was said to the President to what she did putting it in the same category as saying something to your child ?

I am not sure what you mean here. There is or was a generally accepted code of conduct among our elected officials and judicial branch, one of mutual respect in addressing each other, talking and such. Yelling at the President of the United States as he is addressing a group of senators is not appropriate. And never has been. Selling T-shirt’s with MF is also cringeworthy and inappropriate imo. But unfortunately I think we will see more things like this because what used to be considered good manners and respecting the office have fallen into disrepute. And this is not a partisan problem Ir a religious problem, it is a cultural change.

You”re the one who doesn’t understand American Politics

You do not have a clue.

You’re the one. Excuse what she did by defending it as a “ cultural change” for an elected Rep. comparing it to calling the President a liar

Yelling at the president “you lie” is an absolute breach. If you don’t see it that way then take off your partisan lenses. We have a president that engages in rude childish insult fests, elected representatives (more than just Tlaib) who openly use vulgarities and a public that is increasingly tolerant of it and even endorses it as some sort on non-pc “genuineness”. THAT is a cultural change. You don’t even notice because your focus is on our Muslim politicians.

This is a " private conversation?" This isn't an absolute breach? Keep telling yourself that

Tlaib was raised in the ghettos of Detroit where that language is not at all unusual.

Excuses. If an Israeli politician said that because the President supported a “ One State Solution” which she does which means the Israelis would have virtually no say in any politics or policies you would take a different approach
She was raised in the ghetto? She sure took it with her