Our National Debt, spending addiction and deficit spending is problem 1

[ClaireH]

Here is the problem, and it has happened time and time again. I mean you can take it back to the 1950's, but lets keep it more contemporary. Clinton and Obama both kicked ass when it comes to stimulating the economy. Clinton actually ran a surplus for a while, and he retired all the 30 year Treasuries and replaced them with shorter term, and lower interest rate, bonds. I mean I don't know if you remember the Gore v. Bush election, but one of the critical issues was what the government was going to do with its budget surplus. Gore was going to do like Clinton, pay down that deficit. But Bush, well he was going to "give it back" to the American people. Those magic taxcuts, you know, the ones that don't cost anything because the taxcut fairy will show up and government income will increase. A damn fairy tale from hell when marginal tax rates are already low. I mean if they are north of 70%, like under Kennedy, then yeah, maybe so. But at rates less than 40%, no way in hell. And I would be happy to show how Reagan found that out within the first two years of his first term. Mostly because I worked for the OMB and was screaming it wasn't going to work from the getgo.

But that is the thing. If some miracle prevailed, Biden got all his legislation passed, we borrowed more money and INVESTED, I mean most Republicans are all about "investing", except when it comes to the government. But if we invested all that money, borrowed on the cheap, and expanded the frontier curve---basic Macroeconomics 101, it will result in increased revenue. But then some slick talking, bought and bossed Republican, Joe Manchin comes to mind, will stroll in and promise those magic fairy tale taxcuts and BAM, we will be right back where we started, IF WE ARE LUCKY. What history as shown is that we will seeing increasing deficits.

I mean it is so obvious for anyone with any real Economics training. But that is a lost art, destroyed by organizations like the Koch brothers, But then, that is another story. Everyone often bitches about Hitler, and yes, his social policies were an abomination. But his economic policies, they provided real dividends for the German people. To this very day, some of his public works projects still provide dividends to the German people. That is what we could do, if Republicans were not so bought and bossed by the corporations and the elite and would put this country first, above their own desire for continued power. But you don't have to turn to Hitler. You can look no further than Franklin Roosevelt and the CCC, to find public works projects that, even today, almost a century later, still provide increased economic efficiencies that have expanded that frontier curve. Like the Outer Banks of North Carolina.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. You appear well-versed in economic policy. I took ECON 101/102 with better understanding of macro than micro.

Long term matters more than short term waste. Multiple short term thinking products (outdated within next 5 to 8 years) do not take into account the continuing boom of technology. These short-term ideas need to be canned where they belong. The huge investment in charging stations will not pay off. In theory, legislation should fit our reality, our current reality, not five years back. At the same time the charging station is considered a “great improvement” soon out will be better improvements, nothing like what they have now (any public awe will be quickly redirected) and will be far superior. It is a valid claim to say that numerous (too many too count) green products that are not in the design process now, will be out in 5 years or less. Competition will not be suppressed, even though the mega monopolies owning these electric charging stations will throw fits (and big money into lobbying) to suppress the release of better products other countries will be using.

Big picture: Are these durable products where the cost will eventually be justified? No. Are these products going to be in long-term use beyond a 8-10 year lifespan? No, except for a few holdouts here and there. This investment will fail. It’s of little matter how low interest rates are currently, as we’d still lose long-term. No long-term payoff but additional expense for “aisle 3 removals and cleanups” station to station to station.

BBB is destined to fail (thankfully so) due to this short-term thinking! Gas stations will have outdated charging stations that would soon look like eyesores, similar to the old dilapidated phone booths. What are they thinking, that technological progress will suddenly stop so this short-term product pays off? That will be the only way that these charging stations will pay for their worth. No chance of stifling global competition overall. Monetary bribes of course still occur to legally seal/protect patented products which prevents sharing knowledge.

As it stands they will not pass BBB. Until a majority of those who enact our laws understand that matching reality, in today’s world, means looking into the future not the past, congress will continue to overspend and make short-term decisions.

 

[Mac1958]

None of this changes that you keep voting for the people doing the thing you say is our biggest problem. Does that not make you party to the problem?

Funny how this comes up AFTER the orange guy spent like a drunken sailor, applauded it, bragged out it, and took credit for the economic stimulus it created.

I guess they haven't been told about that.

 

[Oddball]

Nobody opposed to more taxation is suggesting that they shouldn’t be left with a pot to piss in.

I am....**** the looting layabout bureaucrat bastards....Let them go get real jobs.

 

[BackAgain]

Again, I try and talk about the topic at hand and you throw a hissy fit.

Very odd. Are you feeling a bit defensive for your inaction?

I haven’t thrown a hissy fit. You have a funny imagination. You are just transparent. That’s all. And even when exposed, you just continue. You really are inept. It’s funny because it allows us all to point at you and chortle.

 

[bripat9643]

No, they do not. That is a total lie.

And no, I am not effectively voting for anyone but whom I vote for.

The Dems tell me I am effectively voting for the Repubs.

You sheep even use the same tactics you are so alike.

It's the truth. Just consider BBB. $5 trillion in spending, and it's all Democrat. The same goes for the so-called "infrastructure bill." That was all Dim spending, and it was another $5 trillion. Dims approved all the spending in the last two years of the Trump administration. In fact, they demanded it.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It's the truth. Just consider BBB. $5 trillion in spending, and it's all Democrat. The same goes for the so-called "infrastructure bill." That was all Dim spending, and it was another $5 trillion. Dims approved all the spending in the last two years of the Trump administration. In fact, they demanded it.

The BBB is just talk, and it is 5 trillion over 10 years, the Repubs and Dems just approved almost 800 million for one year for the DOD. Yes, the Dems approved of all of Trump's spending, and so did Trump and the Repubs. It was a group effort. And the first two Trump years it was 100% Repubs that added 40% to the deficit in 2 just years.

I do not disagree the Dems spend too much, but they are no worse than the Repubs.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I haven’t thrown a hissy fit. You have a funny imagination. You are just transparent. That’s all. And even when exposed, you just continue. You really are inept. It’s funny because it allows us all to point at you and chortle.

Yet you still refuse to talk about how to address the problem of the debt and out of control spending.

Pointing out a problem without a solution is just being part of the problem.

 

[ClaireH]

Funny how this comes up AFTER the orange guy spent like a drunken sailor, applauded it, bragged out it, and took credit for the economic stimulus it created.

I guess they haven't been told about that.

Oh noooooo! Not the ole “let’s see which president created the most debt” comparison! Well, let’s level the playing field, adjust $ for inflation for a fair comparison, and start with Bush Sr. through Trump.

Is it your opinion that Trump’s administration was the worst offender?

 

[Mac1958]

Oh noooooo! Not the ole “let’s see which president created the most debt” comparison! Well, let’s level the playing field, adjust $ for inflation for a fair comparison, and start with Bush Sr. through Trump.

Is it your opinion that Trump’s administration was the worst offender?

Depends on how it's calculated and the situation. If you go by percentage increase, below, Trump is up there with others. Obama spent a ton, but most of that was digging us out of the Meltdown (although no doubt there was more than enough pork in those packages).

But more to the point, the GOP likes to call itself the "party of fiscal responsibility" and it really is not. Demonstrably. And it's certainly amusing to see them so worried about the debt AFTER Trump went to town on spending. Pretty transparent.

U.S. National Debt by President

Check out how the national debt has increased by year and president. Depending on how you measure it, the answers may differ.

www.thebalance.com

Another interesting chart here:

Federal Debt: Total Public Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

View the ratio of federal debt to the economic output of the U.S., which can indicate economic health and the sustainability of government borrowing.

fred.stlouisfed.org

 

[SavannahMann]

What part of "no military is ever 100% ready" didn't you understand?

I understand that. I am trying to quantify how prepared you think they are. Do you think they are ready enough? Or should we double military spending for a year or so for intensive training? And make no mistake. It would be at least doubled.

 

[ClaireH]

Yet you still refuse to talk about how to address the problem of the debt and out of control spending.

Pointing out a problem without a solution is just being part of the problem.

I’m having a problem with you wasting screen space. I just told another poster that he reminded me of 5 other posters. I’ve ranked you as 5th so take heed, there are 4 others worse than you in this regard but if you double up you could soon rank 1st!

It is hard enough to discuss opposing viewpoints from a fair minded perspective without these tiresome tactics. I’m all about poking fun at other posters, in good fun, but this isn’t that. The need to feel superior in knowledge is an emotional weakness. I get it, but will still call you out for it.

This closely resembles a political candidate who only tells us how bad the other guy is, instead of an honest, to the point, rebuttal. That’s why we have low level candidates because it’s all about revealing dark, shocking secrets about the opposition and forgetting to mention their own stance, other than coming up with some idiotic slogan.

Anyway, carry-on as you will, I just had to spout my opinion.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I’m having a problem with you wasting screen space. I just told another poster that he reminded me of 5 other posters. I’ve ranked you as 5th so take heed, there are 4 others worse than you in this regard but if you double up you could soon rank 1st!

I do not give a flying ****. Why on earth would you think I care where you ******* rank me you dumb ******* *****.

 

[BackAgain]

Yet you still refuse to talk about how to address the problem of the debt and out of control spending.

Pointing out a problem without a solution is just being part of the problem.

Zzz. I created your own 3p thread. Toddle over there where you can be on topic. You’ll find it in “Politics.”

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Zzz. I created your own 3p thread. Toddle over there where you can be on topic. You’ll find it in “Politics.”

I am talking about the debt, why will you not talk about the debt in your own debt thread?

 

[ClaireH]

I do not give a flying ****. Why on earth would you think I care where you ******* rank me you dumb ******* *****.

Wow. You cared more than I thought you would…I thought you were thicker skinned GG, my error.

 

[BWK]

There is a current claim, repeated by the media, that our national debt is $28.08 TRILLION.
View attachment 569687
At this point and noting the accelerating rate of deficit spending, the proportion of payment of just interest on the debt to “revenues” is unquestionably going to become much much larger. Like a person who can’t handle their own household budget, the government will “borrow” ever more just to pay interest. Of course, the government will probably in just “print” money but this makes each dollar increasingly less valuable. (And some will tell us that inflation isn’t a big deal.

Now consider, the $28 TRILLION DEBT figure is phony. It doesn’t include unfunded mandates like pensions. Anyone care to take a stab at THAT one?

You Think The Deficit Is Bad? Federal Unfunded Liabilities Exceed $127 Trillion

The federal unfunded liabilities are catastrophic for future taxpayers and economic growth.

www.forbes.com

I know that most liberals and progressives and economic authorities like AOC will dismiss this as pure right wing hysteria, but for reasonable people, I suggest that our addiction to spending and debt and deficit spending is the most urgent problem we face as a nation.

The debt will have no meaning without doing something about climate change. Once it's too late, the debt cancels itself out.

By the way, now you care about the debt, after Trump exploded it $8 trillion more dollars? Where have you been? What You Need to Know About President Trump's Impact on the National Debt

 

[BWK]

When Republicans are in office, nobody mentions the deficit.

When they're out of office, the deficit is suddenly a huge issue.

Go figure.

It's always the same with them. No mention of a $8 trillion explosion by Trump, but now they are worried about it. No they aren't. It's only a talking point when it's convenient.

 

[BWK]

I wasn’t posting here at all during any of President Trump’s days in office.

I am a fan of tax cuts. Your side seems to think that this is tantamount to cutting “revenue.” I don’t see taxation as true revenue, first of all. But more fundamentally, even if we label taxation as revenue, we still have a spending addiction that far outstrips it.

Our addiction to spending has significant consequences too. I posted a chart at the outset showing the us budget in round numbers. That’s the stuff we acknowledge. We spend almost twice as much as we have the money to actually pay for. Thus, more deficit spending.

it’s tough on the budget planner for a home or a business too. “We need to spend less!” But many people do seem to manage to avoid buying more than they can afford in order to insure that they pay their bills.

Not all borrowing and debt is bad. Only a silly person would make that claim. But there are limits. There ought to be limits.

Introducing Ed's 'vulture chart' This is the result of your tax cuts. We are now the working poor thanks to your worthless tax cuts.

 

[BackAgain]

I am talking about the debt, why will you not talk about the debt in your own debt thread?

It is the debt problem thread.

It is not the “how a 3p can help us do some shit in theory” thread. I gifted that one to you. Down the hall and to the right.

 

[ClaireH]

Depends on how it's calculated and the situation. If you go by percentage increase, below, Trump is up there with others. Obama spent a ton, but most of that was digging us out of the Meltdown (although no doubt there was more than enough pork in those packages).

But more to the point, the GOP likes to call itself the "party of fiscal responsibility" and it really is not. Demonstrably. And it's certainly amusing to see them so worried about the debt AFTER Trump went to town on spending. Pretty transparent.

U.S. National Debt by President

Check out how the national debt has increased by year and president. Depending on how you measure it, the answers may differ.

www.thebalance.com

Another interesting chart here:

Federal Debt: Total Public Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

View the ratio of federal debt to the economic output of the U.S., which can indicate economic health and the sustainability of government borrowing.

fred.stlouisfed.org

So you’ll just have to take my word for it but I had two sources in my response as well as a few statistics thrown in. I found several charts comparing the percentage changes per administration, one not accounting for inflation while another adjusted for it. I’ll read your sources later, thanks. On my phone I can’t find where it is if it wasn’t erased.I did save this:

“Of the 45 Presidents, only 14 of them have overseen a decrease in debt. Calvin Coolidge was the last President to do so, leaving office in 1929, 15 Presidencies ago.”

Almost 100 years! I knew it’s been a long time but no surprise it’s so ridiculous knowing that fact!

US Debt by President | Chart & Per President Deficit | Self.

Here’s how much each President has contributed to National Debt, including decisions, events and statistics.

www.self.inc