Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I do not have any such memory, However, my grandmother who lived a hundred years ago told us a very different story. She was a strong Catholic who did live both in fairly large cities and then in a very small town. In other words, she experienced Catholic teachings in both environments. Guess what, kids weren't thrown out of the home for being gay. Many became known as bachelors or maiden aunts. (Same grandmother who taught us evolution began with us being something like a fish.) Neither evolution nor homosexuality was regarded as that big of a deal, perhaps because no one made it a big deal. It was what it was. Even so, probably because of my grandmother, I was a big believer in government giving ALL couples the same rights while at the same time being vehemently against government involving itself in marriage.

Where Grandma and society seemed to disagree at that time, is that Grandma was not in favor of a couple having to get married because they had created a baby.

I just looked this up

The Catholic Church considers sexual activity between members of the same sex to be a sin.

 

[sealybobo]

Isn't that odd that most of the people you know don't hold the same religious beliefs that you do?

For the record, when I was a theist, I was very much like you. A very liberal theist.

A liberal is someone in favor of reform, not someone who encourages a traditional way. The way I follow goes back over two thousand years.

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I know that this post was to Meriweather, but I just wanted to say.... true Christianity has not changed. It has never changed.

Just in case this needs to be stated....as politically incorrect as this may be, homosexuality is just as much a sin today as it was 3000 years ago. That has not and will never change.

But since the time of Jesus, we are under the covenant of Grace, which means there is forgiveness for ANY sins, but that forgiveness isn't automatic. What I mean by that is that one must receive it and choose to follow Jesus and live life in a different way...God's way, not the ways of this corrupt, fallen world.

As for how one should take the bible, it's not a one size fits all. The bible is a collection of 66 books, and there are many different types (or genres) of writing. Meriweather and I might part ways on this, but some of it is to be taken literally, and other parts are poetry or parables or figures of speech, etc.

As for evolution, I used to agree with it but I've since realized that evolution is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated on mankind. So I strongly disagree with Meriweather on that. But I don't want to get sidetracked here, plus I am just popping in from time to time when I have a bit of time.

For one, there were never born agains before America so yes TRUE Christianity has changed a lot. Your ancestors used to be Catholics.

Has the church ever been against science before? Yes. Pope Urban VIII condemned The Father of science, Galileo. But by the time of the Internet in 2008, the church decided to erect a statue of the former heretic in the Vatican.

There are many variations of Christians today. They all have a common ancestry but are split off into distinct groups and sub-groups: Different continents and environments have forced different adjustments.
For example, the Inca in Peru had an ancestor ceremony in which at certain times of the year they paraded mummies of their dead relatives through the town square.

There are also mutations of Christianity who survived because of their fitness. Islam has its common descent of Christianity — a different branch of the same religious tree, with an acknowledgement of Jesus as a prophet in the Quran. Migration and isolation spurred other mutations. Mormonism and Christian Science are native to North America.

Even the Christian Bible, the basic text of Christianity, has evolved. Bart Ehrman’s 2005 book Misquoting Jesus masterfully documents modifications made over the millennia. In the Bible’s first 1300 years changes were made as it was copied by hand.

Many studies have found Americans are not more religious in practice than people in other nations. We just lie to pollsters as to what we’re doing on Sundays. Philip Brenner at the University of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research did a paper looking at “500 studies over four decades, involving nearly a million respondents.” The findings were summed up by Slate’s Shankar Vedantam, “Brenner found that the United States and Canada were outliers — not in religious attendance, but in over reporting religious attendance. Americans attended services about as often as Italians and Slovenians and slightly more than Brits and Germans.” So really we attend church as much as other countries — even European countries. Americans and apparently Canadians just lie about it ... in astonishingly un-Christ-like numbers.

Those same godless European countries are also outranking us in science proficiency. Depending on which damning study you read, the U.S. ranks 17th to 29th worldwide in science.

Last week on Bill Maher’s Real Time, Congressman Jack Kingston (GA-R) admitted he doesn’t think he came from a monkey.

They deny all missing links, yet they are straddled between medieval mysticism and medical science. Technology can grow a human ear on the back of a rat (whether members of Congress believe in it or not). Science deniers are starting to look like America’s transitional fossils.
American Christianity eventually evolved to oppose evolution, but it’s not getting more Americans to church or helping us in science literacy.

Christianity Has Evolved Too

Darwin's theory of evolution is 160 years old. Christianity has been thriving for more than 1700 years. So, evolution denial is a new modification for the religion.

www.huffpost.com

 

[Meriweather]

Any catholics back then. Catholics I thought it was very difficult to get a divorce 20 or 40 years ago. Is it still that way? And if you do are you kicked out of the church?

No, divorce has never been a problem. It is remarrying after a divorce.

 

[Meriweather]

I just looked this up

The Catholic Church considers sexual activity between members of the same sex to be a sin.

Yes. As is premarital sex or any sex outside of marriage.

 

[sealybobo]

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I do not have any such memory, However, my grandmother who lived a hundred years ago told us a very different story. She was a strong Catholic who did live both in fairly large cities and then in a very small town. In other words, she experienced Catholic teachings in both environments. Guess what, kids weren't thrown out of the home for being gay. Many became known as bachelors or maiden aunts. (Same grandmother who taught us evolution began with us being something like a fish.) Neither evolution nor homosexuality was regarded as that big of a deal, perhaps because no one made it a big deal. It was what it was. Even so, probably because of my grandmother, I was a big believer in government giving ALL couples the same rights while at the same time being vehemently against government involving itself in marriage.

Where Grandma and society seemed to disagree at that time, is that Grandma was not in favor of a couple having to get married because they had created a baby.

During the Scientific Enlightenment (basically, Western civilization since the triumph of Galileo and Newton), Christianity was gradually moving for centuries in a very “liberal” direction… as philosophers and ethicists looked at the New Testament and saw that the morals of Jesus and the ideals of Humanism were not so different — that they in fact could be read to be in great harmony.

At the same time, Enlightenment philosophers started distancing themselves from the “Faith Alone” interpretation of the New Testament, even while many (such as Spinoza and Kant) were still attracted to the idea of a transcendent God.

And possibly the discovery of so many non-Western civilizations (Tahiti, Hawaii, etc.) made God seem very unfair if you emphasized the Faith requirement strictly. Why would God create so many peoples around the world condemned to go to Hell for thousands of years?

In general, the “Christian” world was drifting more and more toward Deism and Unitarianism.

But a counter movement arose in the late 19th Century / early 20th Century calling itself “fundamentalism.” C. S. Lewis championed a more intellectually respectable version of the same thing, which he called “mere Christianity.” These movements vehemently rejected the Enlightenment spin on Christianity as even worse than out-and-out atheism.

Ironically, many Deists in the 20th century agreed, and said, “Okay, fine, I’ll just be an atheist.”

Christianity has also evolved in a very interesting way in its relation to science. Galileo was threatened with torture for teaching that the Earth moved around the Sun. He tried to protect Science from Religion by suggesting that the Bible was a spiritual book but not written by God as a science textbook.

Ironically, Galileo’s position is now the official teaching of the Catholic Church (!), which is trying to do the converse: save Religion from Science.

Still another way that Christianity has radically changed, in its relation to the world, is that almost all its great artifacts are in Europe and the Near East, where Christianity is on the decline. Most Europeans cling to it only as a source of tradition, marking the major transitions in life (birth, marriage, death) but otherwise increasingly viewing its theology as a Medieval relic. The morality of Europe, one might argue, is still a largely Christian one, with its preference for peace, universal healthcare, and adherence to things like the Geneva Convention.

How has Christianity changed over time?

Answer (1 of 19): During the Scientific Enlightenment (basically, Western civilization since the triumph of Galileo and Newton), Christianity was gradually moving for centuries in a very “liberal” direction… as philosophers and ethicists looked at the New Testament and saw that the morals of Jesu...

www.quora.com

 

[Meriweather]

Has the church ever been against science before? Yes. Pope Urban VIII condemned The Father of science, Galileo. But by the time of the Internet in 2008, the church decided to erect a statue of the former heretic in the Vatican.

Have you heard the complete story? May Catholics, especially Catholic priests were scientists. Galileo was no maverick. Where he got into trouble is when he was certain his theory about the earth revolving around the sun that the Bible needed to be changed to reflect that truth (theory at the time, but Galileo was certain). The Church told Galileo he could not change what was in the Bible. The whole bro u-ha-ha was over that. However, when about the only book available was the Bible, no one can really blame Galileo for wanting the book to be corrected. The Church did not care if Galileo taught his theory--but they weren't going to let him change the book.

Kind of ironic, is it not, that Galileo had no trouble picturing the earth circling the sun, but could not imagine the day where his theory would be written out in books more numerous than the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

American Christianity eventually evolved to oppose evolution,

Only a very small segment of American Christianity--but it was sure given a lot of attention...

 

[sealybobo]

I just looked this up

The Catholic Church considers sexual activity between members of the same sex to be a sin.

Yes. As is premarital sex or any sex outside of marriage.

Well why don't you guys focus on pre marital sex instead of homo sex? Fatherless children is more of a problem in our society than homosexual sex. In fact homos don't produce children.

Seriously, do you see how you Christians went on and on about how homo sex is a sin a sin a SIN and 95% of Catholic Americans have given oral and had pre marital sex.

So I guess if god is going to forgive you, he's going to forgive a homosexual loving marriage. In fact the loving marriage isn't a sin just like your marriage isn't a sin. It's just a sin when you or the gay gives a bj. Giving BJ's is a sin right? You may say no but my buddies baptist father says giving oral is a sin.

So for one, it pisses me off that you guys got such a hard on over gay marriage but actually you yourselves sin too.

And, no I don't think a guy taking it up the butt is a sin. This was another reason I realized Christianity was just man made up. Such hypocrisy. Especially with all the gay cardinals running around the vatican.

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

French journalist’s book is a ‘startling account of corruption and hypocrisy’, publisher says

www.theguardian.com

Crazy huh? Your Church is run by gays but preaches being gay is a sin. That's why these guys go into the priesthood.

 

[sealybobo]

American Christianity eventually evolved to oppose evolution,

Only a very small segment of American Christianity--but it was sure given a lot of attention...

Their numbers are larger than you think. Even my very moderately relious brother one day said, "I don't believe we evolved from another species" right in front of his kids and his wife. I said REALLY? He said yes and I said, "ok then".... and just changed the subject. I'm not getting in a religious debate with him he will get his feelings hurt and think I'm trying to turn his kids away from god.

Many christians believe in macro evolution not micro. In other words humans might be evolving but we did not come from a monkey like creature who came from a rodent like creature who ultimately came from an animal who crawled out of the water.

They believe in the POOF theory. God must have POOFED us here.

Oh yea, even my dad denies evolution.

It’s often reported that at least one-third of Americans reject evolution.

 

[Meriweather]

Christianity was gradually moving for centuries in a very “liberal” direction… as philosophers and ethicists looked at the New Testament and saw that the morals of Jesus and the ideals of Humanism were not so different —

Precisely, which was what I was referencing yesterday when I said I was not so much a liberal Christian but one who went back to the two thousand year old traditions. I took a great interest, not in the modern-day philosophers of the times--but that of the original times and authors.

What took me there? My own experiences of God, and how they did not seem to mesh with some Biblical accounts. I discovered what it did not mesh was with modern day translations, perspectives, and history. I had to go back to the beginnings. It is quite a lot to wade through, but I found it worthwhile and interesting while at the same time acknowledging such work is definitely not for all.

 

[Meriweather]

Well why don't you guys focus on pre marital sex instead of homo sex? Fatherless children is more of a problem in our society than homosexual sex. In fact homos don't produce children.

Actually we do--very much so. It is the news media and government/politics that changes the focus to homosexuality.

 

[sealybobo]

Isn't that odd that most of the people you know don't hold the same religious beliefs that you do?

For the record, when I was a theist, I was very much like you. A very liberal theist.

A liberal is someone in favor of reform, not someone who encourages a traditional way. The way I follow goes back over two thousand years.

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I know that this post was to Meriweather, but I just wanted to say.... true Christianity has not changed. It has never changed.

Just in case this needs to be stated....as politically incorrect as this may be, homosexuality is just as much a sin today as it was 3000 years ago. That has not and will never change.

But since the time of Jesus, we are under the covenant of Grace, which means there is forgiveness for ANY sins, but that forgiveness isn't automatic. What I mean by that is that one must receive it and choose to follow Jesus and live life in a different way...God's way, not the ways of this corrupt, fallen world.

As for how one should take the bible, it's not a one size fits all. The bible is a collection of 66 books, and there are many different types (or genres) of writing. Meriweather and I might part ways on this, but some of it is to be taken literally, and other parts are poetry or parables or figures of speech, etc.

As for evolution, I used to agree with it but I've since realized that evolution is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated on mankind. So I strongly disagree with Meriweather on that. But I don't want to get sidetracked here, plus I am just popping in from time to time when I have a bit of time.

Something you and Catholics agree on


Greetings Brothers, and Sisters, Friends and Enemies. As touching the subject of Women Preachers, this has been a lie told in the land for many years, that God has called and sent Women to Preach! There's hundreds on hundreds of so-called women preachers, and all of them have the same lying mouth, that God sent them to preach. God never called or sent Women to Preach!

You may wonder why I say that? Because there's no bible that says he did! Understand this, and get this well, there's no place in the bible where women did any preaching! Nowhere! The bible condemns women trying to preach and having authority over the man.

You find so-called women preachers going contrary to the bible, and having speaking appointments. Even though the bible says for them to be silent in the churches, and if they want to know anything ask their husbands at home, they willingly ignore The Bible and still insist on standing before the church and tell their husbands and everyone else what to do. You've got to be a hypocrite to ignore the Bible! I Timothy 2: 11 - 14, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. for Adam was first formed, then Eve. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." As you can plainly see, the scriptures are against women preachers. The bible only allows the aged women to teach the younger women according to Titus 2: 3 - 4 - 5

In my conclusion Brothers and Sisters, you don't have Women Apostles, or Women Bishops or Elders or Pastors or Evangelists or Deaconesses in the Bible! It's of the Devil and out of the Pit of Hell! All churches that have women preachers or believe in Women Preachers, you don't believe the bible and your worship is in VAIN. My advice to you reader is come out of every church that have women preachers, and walk in the truth.

Women Preachers – Truth Of God

www.truthofgod.com

 

[sealybobo]

Well why don't you guys focus on pre marital sex instead of homo sex? Fatherless children is more of a problem in our society than homosexual sex. In fact homos don't produce children.

Actually we do--very much so. It is the news media and government/politics that changes the focus to homosexuality.

This is another reason I realized that the bible was MAN made up.

Women Preachers – Truth Of God

www.truthofgod.com

 

[Meriweather]

So for one, it pisses me off that you guys got such a hard on over gay marriage but actually you yourselves sin too.

Interesting you think that this is what our focus is. How about this: People of the Catholic faith are much more dismayed over the government deciding divorce should be very easy to attain. What I find such a hoot is anyone who winks at premarital sex and adultery and sings that any consensual sex between adults is fantastic. No hiding heterosexual activities needed. And then, they are horrified that people engaging in other kinds of sex want to be equally as open.

I'm betting here is where you and I disagree: Sex should between a male and female within the bonds of marriage only. That is the ideal.

However, I am betting you could not care less if heterosexuals have sex outside marriage, or that marriages can be easily and almost instantly dissolved, or that people can marry as many times as they want to try. If, I am correct--and you do believe all that to be best--then you had better darn well be in favor of all kinds of sex involving all consenting adults. And take the consequences. Back in Genesis, mankind observed what those consequences were. Of course, people today cannot imagine we would bring such chaos and destruction upon ourselves. After all, we are so smart, so intelligent, and so, so sophisticated! Right?

 

[Meriweather]

Something you and Catholics agree on

Oh my word! I didn't know I couldn't preach! Why didn't someone stop me! And the last time was so recent! Woe is me! Shame! Shame! Shame! (Now I'll stop laughing.)

 

[BreezeWood]

I just looked this up

The Catholic Church considers sexual activity between members of the same sex to be a sin.

Yes. As is premarital sex or any sex outside of marriage.

Yes. As is premarital sex or any sex outside of marriage.

.
your certain those were the thoughts of the 1st century religious itinerant -

* the true reason they were crucified is no where found in 4th century christianity. or their message conveyed in any of the desert religions.

 

[Grumblenuts]

If, I am correct--and you do believe all that to be best--then you had better darn well be in favor of all kinds of sex involving all consenting adults. And take the consequences. Back in Genesis, mankind observed what those consequences were. Of course, people today cannot imagine we would bring such chaos and destruction upon ourselves.

Oh my word! I didn't know I couldn't preach! Why didn't someone stop me!

 

[Grumblenuts]

Any catholics back then. Catholics I thought it was very difficult to get a divorce 20 or 40 years ago. Is it still that way? And if you do are you kicked out of the church?

No, divorce has never been a problem. It is remarrying after a divorce.

Catholicism for DUMMIES:

The Church does not believe in divorce.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I'm betting here is where you and I disagree: Sex should between a male and female within the bonds of marriage only. That is the ideal.

Yep, you got that right. I disagree that:

• Sex should between a male and female (only)
• within the bonds of marriage only
• That that is "the ideal" (there's none)

Our younger citizens have no issue with any of this nonsense. They just think you're nuts and "can't wait" for us old farts to die off. Can't say as I blame them in the least.

I'd agree that married couples who vow to never cheat on one another should obviously not do so. If you break a contract there should be consequences. But different contracts for different folks. What's really a "sin" is shamelessly sticking one's nose in other's bedrooms. Judge not lest..

Oh, and like it or not, marriage is a state function in this country. No religion required. I've been married by a JP twice. No priest, reverend, pastor, nor minister sought or required.

 

[sealybobo]

So for one, it pisses me off that you guys got such a hard on over gay marriage but actually you yourselves sin too.

Interesting you think that this is what our focus is. How about this: People of the Catholic faith are much more dismayed over the government deciding divorce should be very easy to attain. What I find such a hoot is anyone who winks at premarital sex and adultery and sings that any consensual sex between adults is fantastic. No hiding heterosexual activities needed. And then, they are horrified that people engaging in other kinds of sex want to be equally as open.

I'm betting here is where you and I disagree: Sex should between a male and female within the bonds of marriage only. That is the ideal.

However, I am betting you could not care less if heterosexuals have sex outside marriage, or that marriages can be easily and almost instantly dissolved, or that people can marry as many times as they want to try. If, I am correct--and you do believe all that to be best--then you had better darn well be in favor of all kinds of sex involving all consenting adults. And take the consequences. Back in Genesis, mankind observed what those consequences were. Of course, people today cannot imagine we would bring such chaos and destruction upon ourselves. After all, we are so smart, so intelligent, and so, so sophisticated! Right?

No, actually you are wrong. My Greek family grew up among white supposedly Christian people. Not Catholics I’m talking about real white people. Baptist’s and Protestants. You know who I mean.

Anyways we watched as these white kids in the 80s went from one boyfriend to another boyfriend. This is why we wanted to find good greek girls. We didn’t want to marry the typical white girl in metro Detroit who had multiple partners before us