Open Borders

[Againsheila]

Immigration policy continually changes and is historically racist.

I'm trying to remember the series of articles I read about how open borders would help us to vet out the criminal element.

The reasoning went something like this. If all are free to come and go across the border with appropriate ID through check points then there is no need for anyone to be hiding but the criminals.

Your OP never mentioned "check points or Id", however; that would only work if the IDs couldn't be forged, and if everyone that crossed the border was checked, but that wouldn't be open borders, now, would it?

 

[Againsheila]

Actually, that statement of yours that I highlighted is pretty close to the truth. I don't have strong opinions about immigration. I'm interested in the topic, and I am studying it from various points of view. That's why, to me, it is not a problem to discuss the topic of open borders. I'm not trying to win. I'm just interested in examining it from many different points of view.

I am a human rights activist. I always lean toward defending the underdog.

As I go about this process of reading and discussing I encounter people like yourself with strong and inflexible opinions about immigration. So here we are, you and I.

What seems to annoy people who are all worked up about immigration is when they talk about the topic with someone who doesn't have strongly averse feelings about immigration.

No, what annoys us is people who don't know anything about the subject reciting what they've read without actually having any understanding. Try reading some anti illegal information now and compare them.

I enjoy a good debate, but you can't debate properly if you're just reciting quotes from articles and you don't have any understanding of the whole picture.

You haven't once made a comment about our limited resources and how we are going to deal with all these extra people you want to let into our country. You haven't spoken about the effect it will have on our economy our job market, our wages. You haven't mentioned the number of hospitals that have closed down along the border due to too many illegal aliens that used the hosptials and never, ever paid their bills.

You don't want to debate the subject, you just want to spout your articles .

 

[sky dancer]

Your OP never mentioned "check points or Id", however; that would only work if the IDs couldn't be forged, and if everyone that crossed the border was checked, but that wouldn't be open borders, now, would it?

Actually the borders would still be open even with check points. They would be open for foreign nationals and citizens alike to travel freely. Some form of ID would be necessary. We would still have borders. We would still expect anyone in the US to abide by our laws.

If everyone is legal--free to come and go--live and work--only those who are criminal would be trying to sneak in.

 

[Againsheila]

Actually the borders would still be open even with check points. They would be open for foreign nationals and citizens alike to travel freely. Some form of ID would be necessary. We would still have borders. We would still expect anyone in the US to abide by our laws.

If everyone is legal--free to come and go--live and work--only those who are criminal would be trying to sneak in.

Now this is a discussion. I have 3 problems with this. 1) who is going to pay for all the people that will be needed to check these id's and make sure they aren't forged, and
2) are we going to get to travel to their country unfettered too? How are you going to make sure that happens?

3) what about our limited resources? How do we deal with that.

Besides look at what's happening now. Our economy is tanking and the illegals are leaving our country voluntarily. They are going home. We are stuck cleaning up the mess, they don't let us go to their country. Heck even their own citizens are complaining about them coming home. Now they are losing their jobs and their wages are going down. The same two things they swore that the illegals here didn't do, they are now claiming they are doing in their own country.

 

[sky dancer]

No, what annoys us is people who don't know anything about the subject reciting what they've read without actually having any understanding. Try reading some anti illegal information now and compare them.

I enjoy a good debate, but you can't debate properly if you're just reciting quotes from articles and you don't have any understanding of the whole picture.

You haven't once made a comment about our limited resources and how we are going to deal with all these extra people you want to let into our country. You haven't spoken about the effect it will have on our economy our job market, our wages. You haven't mentioned the number of hospitals that have closed down along the border due to too many illegal aliens that used the hosptials and never, ever paid their bills.

You don't want to debate the subject, you just want to spout your articles .

sheila--

If you don't want to talk with me about immigration, I am not holding a gun to your head and forcing you.

I post the articles--because I read them and because I think others may be interested in reading them too. I don't have unlimited time on my hands to be writing essays all day long on the topic of immigration. When I find a well written or provocative article that looks at the problem from another viewpoint I post it.

It is your choice whether to read my posts or the articles I provide with them or not.

I do agree with you about the problem of our hospitals closing. However, that is a larger conversation we ought to be having about insurance and health care in our country.

Be honest, the reason hospitals are closing has to do with the problem of the poor and uninsured overwhelming the ER and with a lack of acute care and preventative health care. The problem does not rest solely on the backs of immigrants. Hospitals and medicine in the US are big business. Hospitals close relative to business decisions that hospitals make as well.

Health insurance and health care in the US is a topic I feel strongly about. Something is wrong when American citizens have to get their drugs from Canada in order to afford them and go to Asia or Mexico for surgery and American hospitals are closing in large numbers.

 

[Ravi]

This thread is starting to make me laugh.

 

[catzmeow]

You haven't once made a comment about our limited resources and how we are going to deal with all these extra people you want to let into our country. You haven't spoken about the effect it will have on our economy our job market, our wages. You haven't mentioned the number of hospitals that have closed down along the border due to too many illegal aliens that used the hosptials and never, ever paid their bills.

You don't want to debate the subject, you just want to spout your articles .

Nor has she addressed the fact that our economic picture right now is considerably different from the scenario raised in the OP, that of the U.S. importing labor during a time when we were having a shortage of farm workers...

 

[Ravi]

There still are shortages of farm workers. Now we will see if out of work Americans want to do these jobs, hmmm?

Who will pick the crops? North Olympic Peninsula farmers lament lack of migrant workers

 

[Againsheila]

sheila--

If you don't want to talk with me about immigration, I am not holding a gun to your head and forcing you.

I post the articles--because I read them and because I think others may be interested in reading them too. I don't have unlimited time on my hands to be writing essays all day long on the topic of immigration. When I find a well written or provocative article that looks at the problem from another viewpoint I post it.

It is your choice whether to read my posts or the articles I provide with them or not.

I do agree with you about the problem of our hospitals closing. However, that is a larger conversation we ought to be having about insurance and health care in our country.

Be honest, the reason hospitals are closing has to do with the problem of the poor and uninsured overwhelming the ER and with a lack of acute care and preventative health care. The problem does not rest solely on the backs of immigrants. Hospitals and medicine in the US are big business. Hospitals close relative to business decisions that hospitals make as well.

Health insurance and health care in the US is a topic I feel strongly about. Something is wrong when American citizens have to get their drugs from Canada in order to afford them and go to Asia or Mexico for surgery and American hospitals are closing in large numbers.

And yet, it's the hospitals along the southern border that are closing.

 

[007]

That's not what I said. I said let the ones that want to become Americans become Americans. And not only will this ensure their loyalty, it will also allow them to work and pay taxes...and right now we sure could use a big infusion of money.

I have no idea just how you get the idea that throwing our laws to the wind and letting just any sick, uneducated, unskilled, gang banger, criminal, etc., that does NOT want to become an American, is somehow going to magically become LOYAL to America just because we make them legal. To them that just gives them the leverage they want and need to conduct their criminal, terrorist business without worrying about being arrested or deported. Bad idea Rav.

At the very least decriminalize being undocumented. The reason companies can get away with paying substandard wages is because the people they hire know they can be turned over to the INS. If they can't be turned over to the INS they are free to report companies for paying illegal wages. If Tyson chicken can't make a profit by paying a fair salary, let them go offshore and try to sell to us...and then don't buy from them. I'm sick of coddling corporate America. Toyota and Honda have both proven you can make a profit and pay decent salaries right here in the USA.

Undocumented is just an inaccurate term used for an illegal, and on top of that, the tidal wave of illegal aliens into this country in the last two decades has COST us more than it ever BENEFITED us. We don't NEED twenty million illegal aliens. We don't need MORE illegal aliens. We don't need MORE PEOPLE PERIOD! In all actuality, America would be better off getting RID of some it's sick, uneducated, unskilled, criminal people.

This whole thread, this whole debate, is led by two different camps. One camp realizes that America is being invaded by the largest land invasion from one country into another in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD, and it needs to STOP. The other opposing camp wants the invasion to continue. They even want to TAKE AMERICA BACK! And if you think we don't know that you're crazy. Sure there are those that don't, but the number of those that do number in the MILLIONS, and that's a big enough problem that we, the LEGAL citizens of America, should fight this invasion with every fabric of our soul and being, and I can guarantee you this, I WILL!

 

[Againsheila]

There still are shortages of farm workers. Now we will see if out of work Americans want to do these jobs, hmmm?

Who will pick the crops? North Olympic Peninsula farmers lament lack of migrant workers

Once upon a time, Americans picked those crops. Then they stopped allowing Americans to pick them because they could take advantage of the illegals. Now they want the Americans back, but they don't want to pay them or treat them well. What do you expect is gonna happen?

I remember taking my Thai sister in law to the busstop to get picked up to pick berries. Something I did as a kid to make money. Back then all the pickers were caucasion. I hadn't been in years but my sister in law wanted to make some money so I took her up to the busstop. The bus driver, who didn't know either of us, took her and all the asians. I was the only caucasion at the busstop and he refused to take me. Now explain to me why I should care now that they can't find people to pick their crops?

 

[Againsheila]

Okay, Sky Dancer, here's an article you should read and then comment on....go to the link, this is only the first paragraph of a fairly long article

Mexico’s Undiplomatic Diplomats by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Autumn 2005

Mexico’s Undiplomatic Diplomats
Heather Mac Donald EMAIL
RESPOND
PRINT



It’s a strain being a Mexican diplomat in the United States these days, as the plaintive expression on Mario Velázquez-Suárez’s dignified features suggests. Diplomacy may be the art of lying for one’s country, but Mexican diplomacy requires taking that art to virtuosic heights. Sitting in his expansive office in Mexico’s Los Angeles consulate, Deputy Consul General Velázquez-Suárez gamely insists that he and his peers observe the diplomatic duty not to interfere in America’s internal affairs, including immigration matters. “Immigration is an internal discussion,” he says. “We have to respect that regardless of whether it pleases us.”

 

[Ravi]

You know, maybe George Bush's intent was to destroy the economy so all the undocumented people would go home.



Less people spending money here doesn't seem like a good thing. And if no one steps in and does the jobs left vacant, the businesses are going to go under as well.

 

[sky dancer]

Okay, Sky Dancer, here's an article you should read and then comment on....go to the link, this is only the first paragraph of a fairly long article

Mexico’s Undiplomatic Diplomats by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Autumn 2005

Mexico’s Undiplomatic Diplomats
Heather Mac Donald EMAIL
RESPOND
PRINT



It’s a strain being a Mexican diplomat in the United States these days, as the plaintive expression on Mario Velázquez-Suárez’s dignified features suggests. Diplomacy may be the art of lying for one’s country, but Mexican diplomacy requires taking that art to virtuosic heights. Sitting in his expansive office in Mexico’s Los Angeles consulate, Deputy Consul General Velázquez-Suárez gamely insists that he and his peers observe the diplomatic duty not to interfere in America’s internal affairs, including immigration matters. “Immigration is an internal discussion,” he says. “We have to respect that regardless of whether it pleases us.”

When you're willing to read my long articles and comment on them I will read yours. Your article is an opinion piece which claims that the comic book the Mexican government publishes encourages illegal immigration.

That's the same kind of logic that people who oppose sex education in the schools use. That if you teach about condoms you are promoting sexual activity.

The comic book educates Mexicans on the dangers of crossing the border illegally and how to keep from dying in doing so.

I provided research papers today.

 

[Againsheila]

You know, maybe George Bush's intent was to destroy the economy so all the undocumented people would go home.



Less people spending money here doesn't seem like a good thing. And if no one steps in and does the jobs left vacant, the businesses are going to go under as well.

Actually, the illegals are part of the reason for the destroyed economy. They have lowered the wages for the working class. This means less money into our economy. Plus they are sending their money home which means even less money in our economy. Making them legal will not fix this problem in that every amnesty in the past has only led to an increase in illegal immigration.

 

[Ravi]

Actually, the illegals are part of the reason for the destroyed economy. They have lowered the wages for the working class. This means less money into our economy. Plus they are sending their money home which means even less money in our economy. Making them legal will not fix this problem in that every amnesty in the past has only led to an increase in illegal immigration.

I don't agree with you but it seems pretty easy to fix that if true. Decriminalize being undocumented. Then employers won't be able to pay lower wages because they will no longer be able to hold deportation over the heads of their employees.

It isn't the people that take the jobs that lower the wages. It is the people that hire them to avoid paying a living wage. They only send a fraction of what they earn home, btw. The rest is spent here. And now, it won't be.

 

[sky dancer]

I don't agree with you but it seems pretty easy to fix that if true. Decriminalize being undocumented. Then employers won't be able to pay lower wages because they will no longer be able to hold deportation over the heads of their employees.

It isn't the people that take the jobs that lower the wages. It is the people that hire them to avoid paying a living wage. They only send a fraction of what they earn home, btw. The rest is spent here. And now, it won't be.

Bingo.

 

[dilloduck]

Bingo.

Bullshit----deprive employers of illegal workers til they go belly up.

 

[catzmeow]

Less people spending money here doesn't seem like a good thing. And if no one steps in and does the jobs left vacant, the businesses are going to go under as well.

Is it your idea that illegal immigrants come here like tourists to support our local economies?

Do you even KNOW any illegal immigrants?

 

[catzmeow]

There still are shortages of farm workers. Now we will see if out of work Americans want to do these jobs, hmmm?

Did it ever occur to you that Americans USED to do these jobs until an influx of illegal employees lowered the wages to the point that most Americans can't afford to take these jobs?

More employees in the pool = lower wages for workers. durr.