One simple question for MAGA. Do you support Trump's support for Putin in the Ukraine Situation?

[Correll]

You are the one that is skirting the issue. Bottom line is that Trump is being strong with Zelenski and weak with Putin. No ifs or buts about it

Now you are stepping BACK from the more concrete discussion we were having about "cards" in the negotiating table.

I agreed with you on a card that Putin has. You tried to make a point based on it, but it was a flawed point. But I agreed that he does have that card.


Trump has cards too. Anyone with a brain who thinks about the situation for a second, can come up with some of them.


Yet, you can't bring yourself to admit it. You CAN'T admit that Trump has leverage....


All you can do is spout negs and talking points.


Because, you know that the only way you can defend the lefty position on the war in ukraine, is by avoiding all the truth and reality of the issue.

 

[Luckyone]

Now you are stepping BACK from the more concrete discussion we were having about "cards" in the negotiating table.

I agreed with you on a card that Putin has. You tried to make a point based on it, but it was a flawed point. But I agreed that he does have that card.


Trump has cards too. Anyone with a brain who thinks about the situation for a second, can come up with some of them.


Yet, you can't bring yourself to admit it. You CAN'T admit that Trump has leverage....


All you can do is spout negs and talking points.


Because, you know that the only way you can defend the lefty position on the war in ukraine, is by avoiding all the truth and reality of the issue.

Wait a minute.............Putin started this "senseless" unprovoked war. When you say, "stop this senseless war", you do understand that Putin could start another unprovoked war and another one after that and another one after that, don't you? In fact, if he is not made to pay for starting this unprovoked and senseless war, why would he stop doing it?

Why is Trump being revengeful against the Democrats, the prosecutors, the judges and everyone that did him wrong, but he is not doing the same with Putin? I mean, he is now in control so going against all of those is "senseless", isn't it?

If punishing people for what he is considers wrong-doing, why isn't he doing the same thing here? After all, here in this war, it is 100% clear that Putin did something wrong. With the Democrats, prosecutors, judges and those that he considers to have done something against him, it is NOT CLEAR that they actually did anything wrong!!!

Why is Trump different with Putin than with everyone else? Peace? Where in the world do you see peace by giving Putin what he wants. Putin wins. Why not try to win again, and again, and again. Winning is good, no?

 

[konradv]

Wait. Are you pretending to not be aware of the concept of losing territory and not fighting to the last man to get it back?


That's not a serious thing you are doing there. To be that ignorant of history, you would have to have failed to graduate grade school.


How about you be honest about what you want? You want endless war to bleed russia dry, and you don't care how many ukrainians have to die in the process.

Why are you pushing Russian talking points instead of those made by our democratic allies?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What do you charge for democracy?

Tell Germany they need to spend more to save their democracy.

Maybe ship some "asylum seekers" home and stop wasting money on wind and solar.

They need to save democracy now, not cool the planet by 0.1 degrees in 100 years.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You are the one that is skirting the issue. Bottom line is that Trump is being strong with Zelenski and weak with Putin. No ifs or buts about it

You guys tried the opposite. Did you win yet?

 

[JustAGuy1]

This is not about the past. Obama no longer has any power. Trump is in power and as such, what he does is important. You mentioning Obama means you are biased because there is no reason to mention him now.

Me mentioning Obama shows you as a hack, nothing more.

 

[Luckyone]

Me mentioning Obama shows you as a hack, nothing more.

and you as a biased asshole keying on things that are old news and can't be changed.

Let's just say for the sake of conversation that you are 100% right (which you aren't), how does that change anything?

 

[konradv]

You have absolutely no idea about the causes, you could find out but you're too lazy. You didn't say a word when Obama allowed Pootie to take Crimea.

Obama didn’t say, “Here, Pootie, take it all.” Trump is selling out Ukraine.

 

[Correll]

Why are you pushing Russian talking points instead of those made by our democratic allies?

I'm not attempting to push any "talking points", I'm trying to have a serious discussion about a policy that effects millions of lives.

As I pointed out, the "Talking point" you were just pushing, is based on you being ignorant of the concept of losing some territorty without fighting to the last man to get it back.

That's not a reasonable thing to do. It's deeply dishonest of you.


The concept of "fighting to the last man" or "total war" or "heroic last stands", are real. But they are not the only options.


Negotiated peace is a real option. It is dishonest of you to pretend it is not.


You are being dishonest is support of a policy that is getting people killed in the hundreds of thousands.


That's not good.

 

[konradv]

I'm not attempting to push any "talking points", I'm trying to have a serious discussion about a policy that effects millions of lives.

As I pointed out, the "Talking point" you were just pushing, is based on you being ignorant of the concept of losing some territorty without fighting to the last man to get it back.

That's not a reasonable thing to do. It's deeply dishonest of you.


The concept of "fighting to the last man" or "total war" or "heroic last stands", are real. But they are not the only options.


Negotiated peace is a real option. It is dishonest of you to pretend it is not.


You are being dishonest is support of a policy that is getting people killed in the hundreds of thousands.


That's not good.

You seem to be ignorant of the maxim that you don’t give into a dictator. Hitler said he only wanted a piece of Czechoslovakia. There’s no need to give in. Russia is on its last legs or Putin wouldn’t be talking.

 

[Correll]

You seem to be ignorant of the maxim that you don’t give into a dictator.

A negotiated peace is not "giving in".

At every turn, in every post, all you can do to support your position, is be dishonest.

Doesn't that raise any red flags with you?

Hitler said he only wanted a piece of Czechoslovakia.

History is not limited to WWII. you are playing at being utterly ignorant of reality, to support your extreme demands that are clearly crafted to just sabotage any chance of a negotiated peace.

There’s no need to give in. Russia is on its last legs or Putin wouldn’t be talking.

That's possible.

Or it could be that Putin realizes that he can't win, not what he wanted, and while he can keep going for years, he is just "throwing good money after bad".


And on the other hand, we need to consider the real possiblity that UKRAINE might be on it's last legs. Maybe THEY are the ones on the verge of collapsing and a month from now, the situation will be far worse for us.


At every turn, your argument is based on you pretending to be utterly ignorant of options or nuance.


And refusing to be honest about what you want and why you want it.

 

[konradv]

A negotiated peace is not "giving in".

At every turn, in every post, all you can do to support your position, is be dishonest.

Doesn't that raise any red flags with you?




History is not limited to WWII. you are playing at being utterly ignorant of reality, to support your extreme demands that are clearly crafted to just sabotage any chance of a negotiated peace.




That's possible.

Or it could be that Putin realizes that he can't win, not what he wanted, and while he can keep going for years, he is just "throwing good money after bad".


And on the other hand, we need to consider the real possiblity that UKRAINE might be on it's last legs. Maybe THEY are the ones on the verge of collapsing and a month from now, the situation will be far worse for us.


At every turn, your argument is based on you pretending to be utterly ignorant of options or nuance.


And refusing to be honest about what you want and why you want it.

If you leave out one of the principals, that isn’t a negotiation. Also, spreading one side’s talking points, hardly makes Trump an honest broker. It’s like asking Poland to apologize for the German invasion.

 

[Correll]

If you leave out one of the principals, that isn’t a negotiation.

Sure it is.

Also, spreading one side’s talking points, hardly makes Trump an honest broker.

A discussion about HOW Trump is handling the negotiations, would be welcome. But first we need to dial up the level of seriousness and honesty on this debate.

It’s like asking Poland to apologize for the German invasion.

If eating a shit sandwich is the price of saving a hundred thousand lives, I would do it. In a heartbeat.

 

[konradv]

Sure it is.




A discussion about HOW Trump is handling the negotiations, would be welcome. But first we need to dial up the level of seriousness and honesty on this debate.




If eating a shit sandwich is the price of saving a hundred thousand lives, I would do it. In a heartbeat.

That would have been a possible solution to a Pearl Harbor, but would we really allow other countries to decide that for us?

 

[konradv]

A negotiated peace is not "giving in".

At every turn, in every post, all you can do to support your position, is be dishonest.

Doesn't that raise any red flags with you?




History is not limited to WWII. you are playing at being utterly ignorant of reality, to support your extreme demands that are clearly crafted to just sabotage any chance of a negotiated peace.




That's possible.

Or it could be that Putin realizes that he can't win, not what he wanted, and while he can keep going for years, he is just "throwing good money after bad".


And on the other hand, we need to consider the real possiblity that UKRAINE might be on it's last legs. Maybe THEY are the ones on the verge of collapsing and a month from now, the situation will be far worse for us.


At every turn, your argument is based on you pretending to be utterly ignorant of options or nuance.


And refusing to be honest about what you want and why you want it.

If Putin doesn’t leave, it’s giving in. There’s no reason we should be falling for r their propaganda, because, if they were really winning, they wouldn’t be talking.

 

[Correll]

That would have been a possible solution to a Pearl Harbor, but would we really allow other countries to decide that for us?

The US at that time was vastly larger and stronger than Japan.

If Ukraine was vastly larger and stronger that Russia, Neither Trump nor I would be as worried about their chances as we are.


Instead, Ukraine is closer to the Japan of your analogy, where they are in big trouble and if they have a chance to negotiate a way out of the bloody mess they are in, they should grab it with both hands.

 

[konradv]

Exce

The US at that time was vastly larger and stronger than Japan.

If Ukraine was vastly larger and stronger that Russia, Neither Trump nor I would be as worried about their chances as we are.


Instead, Ukraine is closer to the Japan of your analogy, where they are in big trouble and if they have a chance to negotiate a way out of the bloody mess they are in, they should grab it with both hands.

Japan was the agressor; Ukraine is not. Russia is Japan in this scenario.

 

[Correll]

If Putin doesn’t leave, it’s giving in.

Nope. That's simply not true. Putin wanted to conquer all of Ukraine, he failed. Cutting a deal that ends the fighting at the cost of the border provinces, sucks, but sucks less than letting another couple hundred thousands of people die, and then cutting an even worse deal.

There’s no reason we should be falling for r their propaganda

Saying propaganda here is just shit talk. I've cited NOTHING that is russia propaganda. Nothing of my position is based on russian propaganda.

, because, if they were really winning, they wouldn’t be talking.

I already offered an alternative explanation for why they are talking and you haven't even tried to address it.

IE, that Putin could realize that he is failing to win and while not on the verge of collapse, is just "throwing good money after bad" and so he should cut a deal now, to stop the damage to his budget and military.

 

[konradv]

Nope. That's simply not true. Putin wanted to conquer all of Ukraine, he failed. Cutting a deal that ends the fighting at the cost of the border provinces, sucks, but sucks less than letting another couple hundred thousands of people die, and then cutting an even worse deal.




Saying propaganda here is just shit talk. I've cited NOTHING that is russia propaganda. Nothing of my position is based on russian propaganda.



I already offered an alternative explanation for why they are talking and you haven't even tried to address it.

IE, that Putin could realize that he is failing to win and while not on the verge of collapse, is just "throwing good money after bad" and so he should cut a deal now, to stop the damage to his budget and military.

What sucks is all the people going to bat for peace and failing to realize that Putin wouldn’t e talking, if Russia wasn’t in deep trouble both economically and militarily.

 

[Correll]

Exce

Japan was the agressor; Ukraine is not. Russia is Japan in this scenario.

That was a flaw in your analogy that I was prepared to over look for discussion purposes.

I considered that you would bring that up, but then I thought, no, he won't be that bad.


Yes, Russia is the aggressor. In wwii, Japan was in a worse situation post Pearl Harbor to cut a deal than Ukraine is now. Noting that, does nothing for our current discussion. It is a moot point.

My point about the size and power of the participants, stands. Would you like to address that, or would you prefer to discuss more flaws with YOUR analogy?