Officer Who Pepper-Sprayed a Black Army Medic Is Fired

[SavannahMann]

The circumstances determine if the action is justified. As the McMichaels have found to their sorrow it is illegal in a vast majority of circumstances.

That case is still undecided as far as I know. But if you look at our law, the two words in there are "believe" and "serious bodily harm." We learned that there is no legal definition what serious bodily harm is. For a prosecutor to bring charges against a shooter, he has to prove what he believed at the time which unless you go on Facebook or something and brag that you set somebody up, is impossible to prove. Nobody can tell what I actually believed at the time.

However statistics show that CCW holders are the most law abiding citizens in our country. One of the reasons for that is when you complete class, pass it and apply, they check you out until the time you became an adult.

You left a vital word out. Reasonable. Is it reasonable to believe. The convictions to date have shown that the juries do not believe it is reasonable.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You left a vital word out. Reasonable. Is it reasonable to believe. The convictions to date have shown that the juries do not believe it is reasonable.

No, the word is reason, not reasonable. If I had reason to believe I was in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.,

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Actually Ray, it's "reasonably believe", not just believe. If a person is afraid of black people and thinks that they are all violent and if they see a white person that they will immediately try to do them harm and said white person preemptively pulls out a weapon and shoots a black person who happens to get too close to them or startles them in some manner, that's not a "reasonable" belief. Not based on the "reasonable man" or person doctrine.

As far as the McMichaels, the dad being former law enforcement should have known better but it's a clear demonstration of what so many white [racists] think and believe when it comes to black people. Chasing someone down and provoking an armed confrontation is not "self-defense" under any definition, no matter what dumb federal judges in Florida have to say on the matter.

The law is ambiguous for a reason. Correct, chasing somebody down and creating a conflict is not self-defense, and any jury or judge will see it that way. But the law was written so that if I see somebody following me, cross the street and they do at the same time, run and they start running after me, then at that point, I have "reason" to believe I'm in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.

It's designed so that the criminal nor his family (in the event of death) has no loopholes to use. I cannot shoot somebody simply because they are black or startled me. That is no reason for me to believe I was in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

But the law was written so that if I see somebody following me, cross the street and they do at the same time, run and they start running after me, then at that point, I have "reason" to believe I'm in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death

Oh you mean the way George Zimmerman followed and chased after Trayvon Martin but then George was the "victim" although he initiated the whole confrontation?

You may have reason to be concerned but that set of circumstances above that you outlined alone does not meet the requirement for utilizing deadly force in self-defense. I understand what you may be thinking but what you think may happen is not the same thing as "what is actually happening, right now (imminently).

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I a sticking to the topic

You mean I "am" sticking to the topic.

My "m" key doesn't work sometimes!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You would think that being in the military he would have learned to accept lawful orders

the military has had to lower its standards to meet overall recruitment goals, not to mention its diversity quotas

Bullshit!

 

[Mac-7]

That has never been the precedent and did NOT rule that the police could use chemicals or other means if you did not get out of the car.

Meaning to think its a toothless law that criminals may or may not obey as they choose?

you were wrong so stop tap dancing

 

[Mac-7]

There is nothing wrong with questioning why a public servant (who puts food on the table with tax money extorted from me) is pointing a gun at me and threatening to kill me......

When you believe the cop is a split second away from pulling the trigger thats a pretty dumb time to play barracks lawyer

if the black person in question has a lick of sense they will comply and argue about it later

so the question becomes is the black guy stupid, suicidal, or lying about his mortal fear of police?

He was scared of the aggressive cop and rather than assuring him that complying would be safe, that dumb fucking cop validated his fear. You want compliance, you need to convince people that compliance is the safe option, not tell them the exact opposite.

"I'm negotiating right up until I pull the trigger."

If the guy believes he is going to get his ass kicked no matter what, why the hell would he comply?

Negotiating fail.

I dont think he was scared at all

he’s just blowing smoke up our ass

the black guy was a jerk who simply wanted to be difficult

 

[Mac-7]

When I was instructed to do something that was against regs by higher ups, I just flat refused on several occasions, and then documented it.

What did they do to you when you refused to follow the order and it was a legal order?

I never did that.

I agreed to follow the rules when I signed up and I did.

I didn't try to get subordinates to do dirt for me and then deny that I ever gave those instructions when the investigators came around.


I got a news flash for you; a lot of those lifer vets that you thank for their service, are some of the most ethically challenged and morally corrupt shitbags you will ever meet.

Not all of them are like that, but a hell of a lot more than you think are.

Its your story

if you choose to write yourself in as Pvt Snuffy the infallible barracks lawyer thats your privilege

But I’m not impressed

 

[pknopp]

They do not have any authority to order people around,

Wrong

You should check you facts before posting

The cops do have the authority to order the motorist to get out of his car

Can police take you out of your car

The United States Supreme Court has held that a police officer can order the driver and all the passengers in the car to exit the vehicle.

www.defenseadvocates.com

In a landmark decision, the Supreme Court held that the police can make you get out of your car after a valid traffic stop.

The officer didn't have a valid reason to stop this man. A simple answering of his question would have cleared that up.

 

[Mac-7]

Fighting or provoking words are against the law. So you don’t see a problem with the police committing crimes?

In this case none at all

obviously the punk kid did not consider them fighting words since he could not even look the cop in the eye

the police chief is a pussy and the kids single mom is a failed parent

 

[SavannahMann]

Actually Ray, it's "reasonably believe", not just believe. If a person is afraid of black people and thinks that they are all violent and if they see a white person that they will immediately try to do them harm and said white person preemptively pulls out a weapon and shoots a black person who happens to get too close to them or startles them in some manner, that's not a "reasonable" belief. Not based on the "reasonable man" or person doctrine.

As far as the McMichaels, the dad being former law enforcement should have known better but it's a clear demonstration of what so many white [racists] think and believe when it comes to black people. Chasing someone down and provoking an armed confrontation is not "self-defense" under any definition, no matter what dumb federal judges in Florida have to say on the matter.

The law is ambiguous for a reason. Correct, chasing somebody down and creating a conflict is not self-defense, and any jury or judge will see it that way. But the law was written so that if I see somebody following me, cross the street and they do at the same time, run and they start running after me, then at that point, I have "reason" to believe I'm in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.

It's designed so that the criminal nor his family (in the event of death) has no loopholes to use. I cannot shoot somebody simply because they are black or startled me. That is no reason for me to believe I was in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.

That reasonable belief has to be sold to a Jury. So far it doesn’t do well.

The Four Elements of Self Defense: Reasonable Fear

Virtually every self-defense case begins with a conflict that escalates to the point of violence. And in virtually every self-defense case, there are choices

ccwsafe.com

If you do shoot an unarmed black guy. You better pray that they don’t discover your online posts. Because your I was afeared for my life defense will go up in smoke and you’ll be lucky to get life in the electric chair.

 

[Mac-7]

The officer didn't have a valid reason to stop this man. A simple answering of his question would have cleared that up.

Wait.

you just said the cop had no valid reason to stop the car

Since you obviously expect cops to be clairvoyant why are you even allowing them the luxury of asking unnessary questions?

 

[freyasman]

There is nothing wrong with questioning why a public servant (who puts food on the table with tax money extorted from me) is pointing a gun at me and threatening to kill me......

When you believe the cop is a split second away from pulling the trigger thats a pretty dumb time to play barracks lawyer

if the black person in question has a lick of sense they will comply and argue about it later

so the question becomes is the black guy stupid, suicidal, or lying about his mortal fear of police?

He was scared of the aggressive cop and rather than assuring him that complying would be safe, that dumb fucking cop validated his fear. You want compliance, you need to convince people that compliance is the safe option, not tell them the exact opposite.

"I'm negotiating right up until I pull the trigger."

If the guy believes he is going to get his ass kicked no matter what, why the hell would he comply?

Negotiating fail.

I dont think he was scared at all

he’s just blowing smoke up our ass

the black guy was a jerk who simply wanted to be difficult

A lot of black people are afraid of cops.
An ER doctor I work with told me he's afraid of them.

 

[Mac-7]

A lot of black people are afraid of cops.

Agreed

they have been brainwashed by the lib news media that sensationalizes every incident where to police shoot a black criminal

but for black people who are not criminals and choose to cooperate with the cops their risk is no higher than mine

 

[pknopp]

A lot of black people are afraid of cops.

Agreed

they have been brainwashed by the lib news media that sensationalizes every incident where to police shoot a black criminal

but for black people who are not criminals and choose to cooperate with the cops their risk is no higher than mine

The thousands who were illegally searched under Stop and Frisk had no choice but cooperate.

 

[Mac-7]

thousands who were illegally searched under Stop and Frisk had no choice but cooperate.

Now you are topic drifting

The issue here is a black driver who refused to obey police commands to get out of his car

 

[pknopp]

thousands who were illegally searched under Stop and Frisk had no choice but cooperate.

Now you are topic drifting

The issue here is a black driver who refused to obey police commands to get out of his car

You made a vast generalization. I narrowed it down.

Bond Set At $3 Million For Fired Columbus Police Officer Who Killed Andre Hill

He did what he was told and BLAM!

 

[Superbadbrutha]

I am not focusing on the black folks they kill, I look at the black folks who are harassed, beaten, evidence planted on, etc.

You were focused on it before. Planting evidence on a suspect is urban legend.

It's a legend to those who have never experienced it.

People who are harassed are usually giving the cop a hard time.

Keep telling yourself that bullshit.

Beaten? That only happens when you fight with an officer and he's trying to put on the cuffs.

Yea right, we have seen case after case of that over the years.

Do you not realize that black folks don't need anyone to tell us shit when it comes to the police, many of us speak from out OWN experiences with the cops.

Which is bullshit because it happens so rarely.

Based on what? Some bullshit theory or study you have thrown up.

Most blacks don't think that because it happened to them, they think that because it's what their black friends and family members tell them; other people that have never had that experience either.

Wow now you are so damn smart you can tell folks what they have and haven't experienced. That is nothing but white arrogance. Sorry Junior, you can't tell me what my life experiences are.

Who was the last white guy who was killed by police when they accidentally grabbed their gun when they meant to grab their tasor?

You're talking about an accident here, and the officer has been kicked off the force and immediately charged with a crime.

Save that bullshit, that wasn't a damn accident. If you watch the video she has ample time to figure out what weapon she has in her hand.

Do you realize how many situations aren't caught on video.

Every police shooting is thoroughly investigated, and usually by outside law enforcement agencies.

Many of those investigations are swept under the rug, you can't be that damn naive.

They do the investigation, forensic science, collect any and all evidence. Besides, WTF can you go in this country without a camera somewhere recording the event? Yeah, out in the sticks. But these incidents happen in cities.

Many of these shootings are caught on video and it still doesn't change a thing.

Police harassing, beating and killing black folks in this country is as old as Apple Pie, this isn't some shit that just started this has been going on since Slave Patrols were created.

This isn't 1953 anymore. This is 2021.

Yep and we are still dealing with some of the same bullshit.

 

[playtime]

he certainly understands justifide 'commands'.

There no such thing as “justifide” commands

there are only commands, period

not true. an underling can refuse an illegal / immoral order.