Obamacare, the Patient Protection Affordable Care Act

[Wry Catcher]

Suddenly the GOP is now for the PPACA when it spent 9 years promising to repeal and replace it.

Such blatant and transparent hypocrisy ought to be obvious to all, that every current Republican member of The Congress is singing the same tune, We Love and will protect those who have a preexisting condition.

Do you, the reader, believe the GOP cares about you and your family?

Consider the words of the Leader of the Senate, Mr. McConnell:

"Nearly a year ago, as the debate over Republican tax breaks for the wealthy was near its end, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) insisted that the tax cuts didn’t need to be paid for – because they’d pay for themselves...

Recently, he said, "the growing deficit and debt is a bi-partisan problem and, " “Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid” funding constitutes “the real driver of the debt.”

McConnell eyes cuts to Medicare, Social Security to address deficit

 

[dblack]

Suddenly the GOP is now for the PPACA when it spent 9 years promising to repeal and replace it.

Such blatant and transparent hypocrisy ought to be obvious to all, that every current Republican member of The Congress is singing the same tune, We Love and will protect those who have a preexisting condition.

Yep. Thoroughgoing hypocrites.

Do you, the reader, believe the GOP cares about you and your family?

I don't want them to. Or, rather, I don't want them promising to take care of me and my family. That's not what I want from government. It's not why we need a government.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Suddenly the GOP is now for the PPACA when it spent 9 years promising to repeal and replace it.

Such blatant and transparent hypocrisy ought to be obvious to all, that every current Republican member of The Congress is singing the same tune, We Love and will protect those who have a preexisting condition.

Yep. Thoroughgoing hypocrites.

Do you, the reader, believe the GOP cares about you and your family?

I don't want them to. Or, rather, I don't want them promising to take care of me and my family. That's not what I want from government. It's not why we need a government.

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people. And yet, 60% of our citizens seem to want FDR's safety nets.

As GOP Moves to Cut Medicare and Social Security, 60% of Americans Say Repeal Trump Tax Scam Instead

Those who don't come under the umbrella of callous conservatives, libertarian dreamers and Wall Street Brokers who will profit from the demise of these safety nets.

 

[dblack]

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people. And yet, 60% of our citizens seem to want FDR's safety nets.

Oh, I'm well aware that all this idiocy is popular. That's why we're in this mess in the first place.

 

[EL Rich]

Suddenly the GOP is now for the PPACA when it spent 9 years promising to repeal and replace it.

Such blatant and transparent hypocrisy ought to be obvious to all, that every current Republican member of The Congress is singing the same tune, We Love and will protect those who have a preexisting condition.

Yep. Thoroughgoing hypocrites.

Do you, the reader, believe the GOP cares about you and your family?

I don't want them to. Or, rather, I don't want them promising to take care of me and my family. That's not what I want from government. It's not why we need a government.

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people. And yet, 60% of our citizens seem to want FDR's safety nets.

As GOP Moves to Cut Medicare and Social Security, 60% of Americans Say Repeal Trump Tax Scam Instead

Those who don't come under the umbrella of callous conservatives, libertarian dreamers and Wall Street Brokers who will profit from the demise of these safety nets.

Wait a second here, you two are having the fundamental debate of our nation; how far should government be involved/intrude into the lives of citizens? Please continue this is actually interesting. Thank you both!

 

[Oddball]

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people. And yet, 60% of our citizens seem to want FDR's safety nets.

As GOP Moves to Cut Medicare and Social Security, 60% of Americans Say Repeal Trump Tax Scam Instead

Those who don't come under the umbrella of callous conservatives, libertarian dreamers and Wall Street Brokers who will profit from the demise of these safety nets.

Indeed...The people who don't want your crushing conformity and Soviet-styled central planner's paradise are somehow morally defective individuals.

The truly frightening thing about this is that knuckle draggers like you are serious.

 

[dblack]

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people.

Also, that's not what I said. I said I didn't want government promising to take care of me and my family. The fact that you equate, "of the people, by the people and for the people" with being taken care of is telling. The irony is that the true meaning of that phrase - namely that government should be subservient to the people, and not the other way around - is contradicted by a welfare state. The caretaker becomes the master. Always.

 

[EL Rich]

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people.[/QUOTE]

Also, that's not what I said. I said I didn't want government promising to take care of me and my family. The fact that you equate, "of the people, by the people and for the people" as being taken care of is telling. The irony is that the true meaning of that phrase - namely that government should be subservient to the people, and not the other way around - is contradicted by a welfare state. The caretaker becomes the master. Always.

Should government make any attempts to aid the population? Should FEMA and farm subsidies also be tossed out as government over-reaching? If we do away with public assistance (or entitlements depending on your POV) what do we do about the folks caught in the transition, let them starve? What if “the people” want these programs? In your opinion, should the ACA be tossed out as unconstitutional? How do we deal with the millions of uninsured in the wake of that?
Don’t feel obligated to answer one by one, just a general take would do the job.

 

[Wry Catcher]

You may not want a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people.

Also, that's not what I said. I said I didn't want government promising to take care of me and my family. The fact that you equate, "of the people, by the people and for the people" with being taken care of is telling. The irony is that the true meaning of that phrase - namely that government should be subservient to the people, and not the other way around - is contradicted by a welfare state. The caretaker becomes the master. Always.

Explain this thinking: "The caretaker becomes the master. Always"

It seems to me Jefferson's words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed:

Explains both Lincoln's words at Gettysburg, and the Separation of Powers first articulated by Montesquieu as outlined in COTUS.

I get the Utopian aspect of Libertarianism, but as in all such movements it is impractical and unworkable in a diverse nation of 300 + million souls.

 

[dblack]

Should government make any attempts to aid the population? Should FEMA and farm subsidies also be tossed out as government over-reaching?

Ideally, no, and yes.

If we do away with public assistance (or entitlements depending on your POV) what do we do about the folks caught in the transition, let them starve?

Of course not. I'm just saying that government is the wrong tool for the job. Government exists to force conformity on society. Sometimes that's exactly what we need to solve a given problem. It would be a mess, for example, if everyone decided for themselves whether to stop at an intersection, or whether it was OK to kill someone they were mad at (stop signs, laws against murder). When we don't need to force conformity, we should avoid using government and, instead, let "the people" work things out via voluntary interactions.

What if “the people” want these programs?

All the people? Or just the majority?

In your opinion, should the ACA be tossed out as unconstitutional?

Absolutely, yes.

How do we deal with the millions of uninsured in the wake of that?

We deal with it in some way that doesn't employ the coercive force of government. There are many answers that fit the bill.

 

[dblack]

Explain this thinking: "The caretaker becomes the master. Always"

When you are dependent on someone else they have control over you. How much depends on how vital the dependency is. If they supply you with your fundamental needs, they control you utterly.

You may have convinced yourself that that's not a reasonable concern, that nothing could ever go wrong in democracy, and that there's no way miscreants could ever take over government and use that control over you unscrupulously. But in the current political climate, it's hard to imagine how you could be so naive.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Explain this thinking: "The caretaker becomes the master. Always"

When you are dependent on someone else they have control over you. How much depends on how vital the dependency is. If they supply you with your fundamental needs, they control you utterly.

You may have convinced yourself that that's not a reasonable concern, that nothing could ever go wrong in democracy, and that there's no way miscreants could ever take over government and use that control over you unscrupulously. But in the current political climate, it's hard to imagine how you could be so naive.

If I'm naive, please inform me concisely how you would change government in America.

 

[dblack]

Explain this thinking: "The caretaker becomes the master. Always"

When you are dependent on someone else they have control over you. How much depends on how vital the dependency is. If they supply you with your fundamental needs, they control you utterly.

You may have convinced yourself that that's not a reasonable concern, that nothing could ever go wrong in democracy, and that there's no way miscreants could ever take over government and use that control over you unscrupulously. But in the current political climate, it's hard to imagine how you could be so naive.

If I'm naive, please inform me concisely how you would change government in America.

Uh, no? There are no silver bullets, no concise simple answers. But, in general, I advocate for policies and laws that protect the freedom of the people to form the kind of society they want, rather than those that dictate what kind of society that must be.

 

[Oddball]

When you are dependent on someone else they have control over you. How much depends on how vital the dependency is. If they supply you with your fundamental needs, they control you utterly.

You may have convinced yourself that that's not a reasonable concern, that nothing could ever go wrong in democracy, and that there's no way miscreants could ever take over government and use that control over you unscrupulously. But in the current political climate, it's hard to imagine how you could be so naive.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Suddenly the GOP is now for the PPACA when it spent 9 years promising to repeal and replace it.

Such blatant and transparent hypocrisy ought to be obvious to all, that every current Republican member of The Congress is singing the same tune, We Love and will protect those who have a preexisting condition.

Yep. Thoroughgoing hypocrites.

Do you, the reader, believe the GOP cares about you and your family?

I don't want them to. Or, rather, I don't want them promising to take care of me and my family. That's not what I want from government. It's not why we need a government.

Do you want big Pharma and the insurance Companies "taking care" of your family .? After all, we know that they put people over profit, right?

 

[Oddball]

Do you want big Pharma and the insurance Companies "taking care" of your family .? After all, we know that they put people over profit, right?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Explain this thinking: "The caretaker becomes the master. Always"

When you are dependent on someone else they have control over you. How much depends on how vital the dependency is. If they supply you with your fundamental needs, they control you utterly.

You may have convinced yourself that that's not a reasonable concern, that nothing could ever go wrong in democracy, and that there's no way miscreants could ever take over government and use that control over you unscrupulously. But in the current political climate, it's hard to imagine how you could be so naive.

If I'm naive, please inform me concisely how you would change government in America.

Uh, no? There are no silver bullets, no concise simple answers. But, in general, I advocate for policies and laws that protect the freedom of the people to form the kind of society they want, rather than those that dictate what kind of society that must be.

Seems to me that was done on June 21,1788 When New Hampshire ratified COTUS.

We the People vote every even year to form society they want; sadly anti democracy, plutocrats and odd balls have poisoned this process.

 

[EL Rich]

Should government make any attempts to aid the population? Should FEMA and farm subsidies also be tossed out as government over-reaching?

Ideally, no, and yes.

If we do away with public assistance (or entitlements depending on your POV) what do we do about the folks caught in the transition, let them starve?

Of course not. I'm just saying that government is the wrong tool for the job. Government exists to force conformity on society. Sometimes that's exactly what we need to solve a given problem. It would be a mess, for example, if everyone decided for themselves whether to stop at an intersection, or whether it was OK to kill someone they were mad at (stop signs, laws against murder). When we don't need to force conformity, we should avoid using government and, instead, let "the people" work things out via voluntary interactions.

What if “the people” want these programs?

All the people? Or just the majority?

In your opinion, should the ACA be tossed out as unconstitutional?

Absolutely, yes.

How do we deal with the millions of uninsured in the wake of that?

We deal with it in some way that doesn't employ the coercive force of government. There are many answers that fit the bill.

Great thoughtful responses, thank you.
Way too much to discuss for this forum but let me address your final point. Without the mandate does the ACA still seem like coercion?
Also, generally it seems like you are saying that you have no problem with any specific program designed to support a specific group, but you simply believe that government is the wrong tool to deliver those services. Does that apply to all government or just the Feds. For example, would you be comfortable if Montana wanted to provide health care for all residents by imposing large statewide taxes? Would you be comfortable if states formed insurance consortiums? So let’s say all New England states decide to create a single payer market in their states? Ok or still too much danger of creating agencies that seem to do nothing but extend their own existence?
Also, you use the phrase “force conformity” in certain areas, would you include issues like Civil Rights in this?
Finally, would you please continue to present a thoughtful conservative view here. It is refreshing as some folks on the left view conservatives as autocratic wack jobs who are devoid of compassion and some here do nothing but reinforces that misperceptions. A characterization that clearly does not apply to you. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[dblack]

We the People vote every even year to form society they want.

That's the core of our disagreement. Government should protect our freedom to realize the society we want, cooperatively and voluntarily. I think it's wrong to simply use it as a means of forcing the will of the majority on the rest of us.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Do you want big Pharma and the insurance Companies "taking care" of your family .? After all, we know that they put people over profit, right?

View attachment 225336

It was just a question fool. And there is nothing false about contrasting for profit health care with government programs