ObamaCare- Mandate is Constitutional as a Tax, etc.

[Quantum Windbag]

The mandate under the Commerce Clause is unconstitutional. The mandate as a tax is okay. l]

Congress: ‘It’s Not a Tax.’ SCOTUS: ‘Yes It Is.’

Posted by Michael F. Cannon

The Supreme Court ruled that ObamaCare’s individual mandate is not constitutional under the Commerce Power, which was how Congress framed the mandate to avoid a political backlash from calling it a tax. Congress and the president swore up and down that the mandate was not a tax. Yet the Court upheld the mandate as a valid use of that disavowed taxing power. What Congress said the individual mandate is, the Court said is not constitutional. What Congress said the mandate is not, the Court ruled is constitutional. Everybody got that?

Where does that leave us?

The Supreme Court just enacted a law that Congress never would have passed.
The Court just told Congress it is okay to lie to the people to avoid political accountability.

Michael F. Cannon • June 28, 2012 @ 11:58 am

.

Call it a financial penalty for not carrying insurance or call it a tax. It's really just semantics.

Roberts tied himself a pretty good semantic knot to justify this, didn't he. A single man ruling that it is, and is not, a tax.

 

[RDD_1210]

i am pretty sure you are wrong.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/231476-progressive-whining-about-obamacare-victory.html

So the ACA wasn't a plan proposed and implemented by the democrats? Learn something new every day.

You didn't follow the link did you. You draw a lot less uninformed conclusions if you actually know what you're talking about. QW found the twist on this that many of us hadn't really seen before or at least hasn't been well articulated. And it's looking better and better for those who will continue to oppose Obama on this.

Which part of the link he posted talks about how the democrats didnt propose this plan?

 

[RDD_1210]

i am pretty sure you are wrong.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/231476-progressive-whining-about-obamacare-victory.html

So the ACA wasn't a plan proposed and implemented by the democrats? Learn something new every day.

I didn't say that, did I? I said there plan was not validated.

Oh I got it. You took a portion of what I said and went in a different direction than the conversation I was having.

 

[Dante]

So does SCOTUS's health care decision give you a warm fuzzy?

...

that and a warm tingling up and down my left leg

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So the ACA wasn't a plan proposed and implemented by the democrats? Learn something new every day.

I didn't say that, did I? I said there plan was not validated.

Oh I got it. You took a portion of what I said and went in a different direction than the conversation I was having.

And you never ever do that, do you?

 

[RDD_1210]

I didn't say that, did I? I said there plan was not validated.

Oh I got it. You took a portion of what I said and went in a different direction than the conversation I was having.

And you never ever do that, do you?

Nah, I'm perfect.

 

[Flopper]

I'm sorry about your wife. But who's the short sighted one, here? You saw some insurance, thought "Hey, this will pay for my health and stuff." Yet you didn't realize that even after paying all that money for it, you still couldn't afford your medical bills.

What's the point of insurance if even after having a top tier plan you will still be bankrupt and in debt for life?

The point is NO one can afford to pay for a major illness. Not even those who were insured.

We could if we went back to paying for our routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and innoculations, etc. out of pocket, paid off the emergency room bill, took on a substantial but manageable deductible on our hospitalization insurance, and bought into a pool for catastrophic medical insurance that would work very much like earthquake insurance or flood insurance. That would make medical insurance much more affordable for many millions more Americans. Just as most of us don't need disability insurance, it is very inexpensive insurance to buy, so would few of us ever use catastrophic medical insurance so spreading the risk would make it very affordable for us all to buy.

There are so many ways to address the problem without government furnished healthcare.

Congress should repeal Obamacare in its entirety, come up with reforms appropriate for the federal government to initiate and pass those, and then carefully so as not to cause unintended harm turn it all back over to the states and free markets to manage. We now know the problem never was ACA/Obamacare. The problem is giving Congress an unlimited power to tax and spend and electing those who will that power to the maximum they think they can possibly get away with.

It is up to us to not let them get away with it any longer.

Those routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and inoculations are not where most of our healthcare dollars go. Prescription and doctors fees account for just 30% of healthcare cost. An of that 30% about half goes for acute care not routine care. That's leaves only 15%.

The cheapest traditional medical care available is through your doctor's office and your pharmacy. Shifting all these costs to the patient will mean less preventive care and less early diagnosis and higher overall cost.

Health Care Spending in America

 

[Flopper]

Congress: ‘It’s Not a Tax.’ SCOTUS: ‘Yes It Is.’

Posted by Michael F. Cannon

The Supreme Court ruled that ObamaCare’s individual mandate is not constitutional under the Commerce Power, which was how Congress framed the mandate to avoid a political backlash from calling it a tax. Congress and the president swore up and down that the mandate was not a tax. Yet the Court upheld the mandate as a valid use of that disavowed taxing power. What Congress said the individual mandate is, the Court said is not constitutional. What Congress said the mandate is not, the Court ruled is constitutional. Everybody got that?

Where does that leave us?

The Supreme Court just enacted a law that Congress never would have passed.
The Court just told Congress it is okay to lie to the people to avoid political accountability.

Michael F. Cannon • June 28, 2012 @ 11:58 am

.

Call it a financial penalty for not carrying insurance or call it a tax. It's really just semantics.

Roberts tied himself a pretty good semantic knot to justify this, didn't he. A single man ruling that it is, and is not, a tax.

The court can call it what they want but for most people it's a penalty for not providing health insurance for themselves and their family.

 

[Trajan]

The mandate under the Commerce Clause is unconstitutional. The mandate as a tax is okay. l]

Congress: ‘It’s Not a Tax.’ SCOTUS: ‘Yes It Is.’

Posted by Michael F. Cannon

The Supreme Court ruled that ObamaCare’s individual mandate is not constitutional under the Commerce Power, which was how Congress framed the mandate to avoid a political backlash from calling it a tax. Congress and the president swore up and down that the mandate was not a tax. Yet the Court upheld the mandate as a valid use of that disavowed taxing power. What Congress said the individual mandate is, the Court said is not constitutional. What Congress said the mandate is not, the Court ruled is constitutional. Everybody got that?

Where does that leave us?

The Supreme Court just enacted a law that Congress never would have passed.
The Court just told Congress it is okay to lie to the people to avoid political accountability.

Michael F. Cannon • June 28, 2012 @ 11:58 am

.

Call it a financial penalty for not carrying insurance or call it a tax. It's really just semantics.

no, not really since the house is the only branch that can originate bills for the purposes of tax collection etc....

here panama laid it out..

http://www.usmessageboard.com/5532583-post5.html

 

[Stephanie]

Faced with the prospect that his legacy would be determined by the Courts decision on Obamacare, Roberts decides he does not want to be the one blamed for pulling healthcare away from millions of Americans

Tough call for Roberts, but in the end he did not want to be the one held responsible

oh for crying out loud..for pulling HEALTH CARE away from MILLIONS OF Americans..

But putting A TAX on Amercians who can't afford it is just fine and dandy, isn't it?

 

[Dante]

What's the point of insurance if even after having a top tier plan you will still be bankrupt and in debt for life?

The point is NO one can afford to pay for a major illness. Not even those who were insured.

We could if we went back to paying for our routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and innoculations, etc. out of pocket, paid off the emergency room bill, took on a substantial but manageable deductible on our hospitalization insurance, and bought into a pool for catastrophic medical insurance that would work very much like earthquake insurance or flood insurance. That would make medical insurance much more affordable for many millions more Americans. Just as most of us don't need disability insurance, it is very inexpensive insurance to buy, so would few of us ever use catastrophic medical insurance so spreading the risk would make it very affordable for us all to buy.

There are so many ways to address the problem without government furnished healthcare.

Congress should repeal Obamacare in its entirety, come up with reforms appropriate for the federal government to initiate and pass those, and then carefully so as not to cause unintended harm turn it all back over to the states and free markets to manage. We now know the problem never was ACA/Obamacare. The problem is giving Congress an unlimited power to tax and spend and electing those who will that power to the maximum they think they can possibly get away with.

It is up to us to not let them get away with it any longer.

Those routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and inoculations are not where most of our healthcare dollars go. Prescription and doctors fees account for just 30% of healthcare cost. An of that 30% about half goes for acute care not routine care. That's leaves only 15%.

The cheapest traditional medical care available is through your doctor's office and your pharmacy. Shifting all these costs to the patient will mean less preventive care and less early diagnosis and higher overall cost.

Health Care Spending in America

save this bullshit post for later. prediction as fact as truth

worse than creationism

 

[Flopper]

We could if we went back to paying for our routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and innoculations, etc. out of pocket, paid off the emergency room bill, took on a substantial but manageable deductible on our hospitalization insurance, and bought into a pool for catastrophic medical insurance that would work very much like earthquake insurance or flood insurance. That would make medical insurance much more affordable for many millions more Americans. Just as most of us don't need disability insurance, it is very inexpensive insurance to buy, so would few of us ever use catastrophic medical insurance so spreading the risk would make it very affordable for us all to buy.

There are so many ways to address the problem without government furnished healthcare.

Congress should repeal Obamacare in its entirety, come up with reforms appropriate for the federal government to initiate and pass those, and then carefully so as not to cause unintended harm turn it all back over to the states and free markets to manage. We now know the problem never was ACA/Obamacare. The problem is giving Congress an unlimited power to tax and spend and electing those who will that power to the maximum they think they can possibly get away with.

It is up to us to not let them get away with it any longer.

Those routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and inoculations are not where most of our healthcare dollars go. Prescription and doctors fees account for just 30% of healthcare cost. An of that 30% about half goes for acute care not routine care. That's leaves only 15%.

The cheapest traditional medical care available is through your doctor's office and your pharmacy. Shifting all these costs to the patient will mean less preventive care and less early diagnosis and higher overall cost.

Health Care Spending in America

save this bullshit post for later. prediction as fact as truth

worse than creationism

So you agree with Foxfyre, routine office visits, prescriptions, and emergency room care should be paid out of pocket and we should have higher deductibles for hospitals?

 

[Dante]

Those routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and inoculations are not where most of our healthcare dollars go. Prescription and doctors fees account for just 30% of healthcare cost. An of that 30% about half goes for acute care not routine care. That's leaves only 15%.

The cheapest traditional medical care available is through your doctor's office and your pharmacy. Shifting all these costs to the patient will mean less preventive care and less early diagnosis and higher overall cost.

Health Care Spending in America

save this bullshit post for later. prediction as fact as truth

worse than creationism

So you agree with Foxfyre, routine office visits, prescriptions, and emergency room care should be paid out of pocket and we should have higher deductibles for hospitals?

the particulars will be tackled, state by state,

no one size fits all. No one really knows how this will pan out. But we have to do something.

Doing nothing was not an option for sane people.

 

[Rshermr]

Faced with the prospect that his legacy would be determined by the Courts decision on Obamacare, Roberts decides he does not want to be the one blamed for pulling healthcare away from millions of Americans

Tough call for Roberts, but in the end he did not want to be the one held responsible

oh for crying out loud..for pulling HEALTH CARE away from MILLIONS OF Americans..

But putting A TAX on Amercians who can't afford it is just fine and dandy, isn't it?

You make it sound like there are no provisions for those that can not pay for health insurance. Read more about it. No one should be hurt by the tax.
But I, for one, am glad not to nave to pay for those who would have rolled the dice and not insured themselves.
By the way, the supreme court is not supposed to make law, right. that is what conservatives have harp;ed on for years. Yet in citizens united they did, and repubs staid silent. Here, the settled law - based on programs like social security, medicare, and federal taxes, all of which require that everyone pay taxes - finds one conservative judge that follows said settled law, and then you all go nuts.

Get a grip.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The logjam has been finally broken.

Regardless of who wins the elections, the plan will be revised and reformed not repealed.

This is a great victory for the American people, and that Chief Justice Roberts made it possible is a stunning revelation.

 

[sitarro]

Umm, pretty sure the democrat plan was the one just validated by the supreme court today. Solid talking point for you though....really.

You call that piece of shit a plan? BTW, they threw out the Medicaid part, so your "plan" kinda has a big hole in it. I am truly amazed that anyone could possibly think they could add 16 million new people into the HC system without seeing a proportional rise in cost, over and above the normal cost increases which are already out of control. And which ACA does nothing about.

Sorry you don't like it. Still is a tangible plan though. Better than what we had before which isn't saying much.

So you're in the "at least he tried" group....... you really aren't all that bright are you RDD?

 

[RDD_1210]

You call that piece of shit a plan? BTW, they threw out the Medicaid part, so your "plan" kinda has a big hole in it. I am truly amazed that anyone could possibly think they could add 16 million new people into the HC system without seeing a proportional rise in cost, over and above the normal cost increases which are already out of control. And which ACA does nothing about.

Sorry you don't like it. Still is a tangible plan though. Better than what we had before which isn't saying much.

So you're in the "at least he tried" group....... you really aren't all that bright are you RDD?

Certainly smarter than the average poster on this site, but that's setting the bar pretty low.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The logjam has been finally broken.

Regardless of who wins the elections, the plan will be revised and reformed not repealed.

This is a great victory for the American people, and that Chief Justice Roberts made it possible is a stunning revelation.

Hmm...what is a great victory, specifically?
Not even the most informed people who were involved in drafting the legislation know what is in it or what will happen....so you know more than they do?
Businesses have hired accountants and healthcare experts to try and figure this thing out - and have not.
But - you - of course have it all figured out and know it is a great victory.

 

[RDD_1210]

The logjam has been finally broken.

Regardless of who wins the elections, the plan will be revised and reformed not repealed.

This is a great victory for the American people, and that Chief Justice Roberts made it possible is a stunning revelation.

Hmm...what is a great victory, specifically?
Not even the most informed people who were involved in drafting the legislation know what is in it or what will happen....so you know more than they do?
Businesses have hired accountants and healthcare experts to try and figure this thing out - and have not.
But - you - of course have it all figured out and know it is a great victory.

And you on the flip side know it's not a good piece of legislation? You have it all figured out?

 

[Foxfyre]

Those routine office visits, routine prescriptions, and inoculations are not where most of our healthcare dollars go. Prescription and doctors fees account for just 30% of healthcare cost. An of that 30% about half goes for acute care not routine care. That's leaves only 15%.

The cheapest traditional medical care available is through your doctor's office and your pharmacy. Shifting all these costs to the patient will mean less preventive care and less early diagnosis and higher overall cost.

Health Care Spending in America

save this bullshit post for later. prediction as fact as truth

worse than creationism

So you agree with Foxfyre, routine office visits, prescriptions, and emergency room care should be paid out of pocket and we should have higher deductibles for hospitals?

That would be emergency room care up to the amount of the deductible. The way it used to work is that you had a set deductible on your insurance, say anything from $500 to $2,000. You pay all your medical expenses out of pocket up to the amount of that deductible. Then your insurance kicks in and either pays the whole amount or there is a prescribed co pay.

The basic medical plan would pay up to a maximum just as there is a maximum on auto or home insurance. But if you want additional protection for your auto andhome, you can buy umbrella policies that kick in and provide much more protection if you reach the maximum. Likewise, we could have a catastophic insurance pool that would be very affordable by spreading the risk across the general population but would take care of those ultra expensive cancer patients, etc.

Even Medicare has a optimum amount after which the patient is expected to pay the next several thousand dollars before Medicare picks up again.

Think of all the people you know and how few of those need expensive medical care or hospitalization in any given year.

The advantage of such a system is that the vast majority of working Americans who buy insurance in the first place will have much more affordable insurance to buy. We all pay out of pocket for routine maintenance and repairs on our homes, our cars, our computers, and all other things that we own. It is ridiculous not to do the same for our healthcare at least up to an amount that won't break the bank. Under the old system, the better insurance policies included the cost of an annual checkup and waived the deductible for that. And we would be questioning and challenging the costs on the bill too, just like we do with repairs on our car or house and we would require the medical provider to justify them. That alone would save countless millions in healthcare costs every year.


Because the emergency room will cost more than going to the doctor, most people will stop using it as a convenience and use it only for emergencies. For those who didn't have enough in the bank to pay the emergency room bill or to cover their deductible and copay at the hospital, we set them up on a payment plan to pay it out in manageable monthly payments, interest free. Most people could do that too.

This is just one way we can change the culture to re-establish affordable healthcare without creating another unsustainable entitlement that drains the lifeblood from the economy. To provide incentive, the government should go with the Republican's proposal for medical savings plans, say $2,000 that people could set aside tax free to use just for medical care. If they don't need it all at the end of the year they can then spend it for whatever they want tax free and deposit another $2,000 into their medical savings account.

This cultural change along with tort reform and some better application of anti trust laws are just some of the ways we can repair the system without breaking the bank.