Obama Plans to Scrap Missle Defense Shield?

[rdean]

US missile system's track record: test delays, failed launches, missed targets | World news | The Guardian

From the Article:
"The planned European missile defence system would have essentially no capability to defend against a real missile attack.

Like I said, the ONLY time it's successful is if the coordinates of the target are fed into the system first and if the day is nice and if no geese are flying around, then the success rate is barely above 50%.

You know, this info is freely available. If anyone really wants to know, it's easy to go look it up from a hundred reputable sites. And remember, it's scientists who are reporting this. They are the ones that have to be convinced, because they follow where the data leads. Republicans just make crap up.

You stated, "It doesn't work, so what's the point?". This does not support your statement at all.

F

The point is - IT DOESN'T FRIGGING WORK!!!!!!!!!!

What is it you don't get?????

 

[Si modo]

US missile system's track record: test delays, failed launches, missed targets | World news | The Guardian

From the Article:
"The planned European missile defence system would have essentially no capability to defend against a real missile attack.

Like I said, the ONLY time it's successful is if the coordinates of the target are fed into the system first and if the day is nice and if no geese are flying around, then the success rate is barely above 50%.

You know, this info is freely available. If anyone really wants to know, it's easy to go look it up from a hundred reputable sites. And remember, it's scientists who are reporting this. They are the ones that have to be convinced, because they follow where the data leads. Republicans just make crap up.

You stated, "It doesn't work, so what's the point?". This does not support your statement at all.

F

The point is - IT DOESN'T FRIGGING WORK!!!!!!!!!!

What is it you don't get?????

Your stating that it doesn't work again and again does nothing to make it any less false than the first time you inaccurately made that claim.

 

[Intense]

I remember when the Internet didn't work. I remember a whole lot of things we now depend on that at one time didn't work.

 

[Navy1960]

The Navy has modified three SM-3 missiles aboard Aegis ships to strike the satellite, Cartwright said. The Navy wants to intercept the satellite at a point just above the atmosphere so there would be a high likelihood of bringing it down in an unpopulated area. An intercept also would rupture the hydrazine tank. The vice chairman would not say exactly where the ships would fire from, only saying it will be from the northern hemisphere and the Pacific Ocean.

Intercepting the satellite at about 130 nautical miles altitude will reduce the risk of debris in space. Once the satellite is hit, officials hope 50 percent of the debris will come to Earth in the first two orbits and the rest shortly thereafter, Cartwright said.

Three SM-3 missiles were modified to intercept the satellite as it passes over the Pacific Ocean. USS Lake Erie (CG 70) and USS Decatur (DDG 73) are currently at sea preparing for the mission.
Navy to Shoot Down Malfunctioning Satellite


Guess what they modified the SM3 Missile with? Interceptor technology that some claim does not work in an effort to shield what is clearly a misguided and not well thought out decision by this President.

PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii (NNS) -- USS Lake Erie (CG 70) successfully tracked, engaged and destroyed an Aries ballistic missile with an experimental Standard Missile 3 (SM-3) missile launched at sea within the Pacific Missile Range Facility (PMRF), Kauai, Dec. 12.

The intercept, Lake Erie’s fourth successful engagement with the SM-3, represents the result of several years of testing designed to expand the tactical Aegis weapons system into a multifaceted and versatile component of the nation’s ballistic missile defense network.
Lake Erie Shoots Down Ballistic Missile

 

[Neser Boha]

You stated, "It doesn't work, so what's the point?". This does not support your statement at all.

F

The point is - IT DOESN'T FRIGGING WORK!!!!!!!!!!

What is it you don't get?????

Your stating that it doesn't work again and again does nothing to make it any less false than the first time you inaccurately made that claim.

Ha ha ha ha .. just a couple of pages earlier on this thread I said the exact thing to him, yet you only managed to insult me for telling him that. Funny that.

 

[Si modo]

The point is - IT DOESN'T FRIGGING WORK!!!!!!!!!!

What is it you don't get?????

Your stating that it doesn't work again and again does nothing to make it any less false than the first time you inaccurately made that claim.

Ha ha ha ha .. just a couple of pages earlier on this thread I said the exact thing to him, yet you only managed to insult me for telling him that. Funny that.

Link to that insult, please.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Those Euros are so happy about this, that the times gives us this headline:

Dismay in Europe as Obama ditches missile defence

Dismay in Europe as Obama ditches missile defence - Times Online

But of course, there was a poll so it's ok!

you don't get it. read up about mirek topolanek, the ex prime minister, who is the only one in your source who expresses dismay, btw, i linked to his dismay-expressing before.

oh i forgot, mccain and kyl are also dismayed, poor things.

But it clearly prompted some dismay in Central and Eastern Europe, where the Bush plan had been seen as an effective guarantor of US support for the fledgling democracies of the old Soviet empire. It will also send a chill through Russia's neighbours.
"This is not good news for the Czech state, for Czech freedom and independence," said Mirek Topolanek, the former Czech Prime Minister. "It puts us in a position where we are not firmly anchored in terms of partnership, security and alliance, and that’s a certain threat."

you have no clue about european politics, listen to the czech woman on this board, at least you can't play the "western european"or the chamberlain card with her.

 

[Navy1960]

I remember when the Internet didn't work. I remember a whole lot of things we now depend on that at one time didn't work.

Thank you, all technology such as this is evoloutionary and when its new , of course there will be failures. If we used this logic, we would have never gone to the moon after the Apollo 1 Fire because some would have claimed , "well the Saturn V doesn't work scrap it" . The facts are this defense technology is fielded already in many places and is not conceptual as many might think it is. It boils down to a campaign promise to the anti-war people that this President made and he followed through with it much to the chagrin of our NATO allies who will never believe a single agreement this nation makes with them again.

 

[L.K.Eder]

There is that line again, 'Dismay in Europe.'

FT.com / Europe - Obama under fire for U-turn on missiles

Quick, somebody take a poll!

don't embarrass yourself further.

The Polish and Czech governments voiced no immediate concern, amid US reassurances that it would later deploy land-based defence systems in eastern Europe. But politicians in warned that the move would undermine US relations with Nato allies who fear a resurgent Russia.

Mirek Topolanek, a former Czech prime minister, said: “This is bad news. After 20 years of our path into Euro-Atlantic structures and our very active involvement there, the process is being halted.”

once again mirek topolanek and later the same polish guy as cited before. do you think it helps your "case" if you post links to the same guys stating the same thing, when i posted this before you did?

the same former pro-MSD guys who got voted out, how is that for a poll, huh?

 

[L.K.Eder]

A spokeswoman at the Polish Ministry of Defense also said the program had been suspended.

"This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman

U.S. scraps missile defense shield plans - CNN.com

Yes, the current polish government justs LUVS this!

Not.

A spokeswoman at the Polish Ministry of Defense also said the program had been suspended.

"This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman, who declined to be named in line with ministry policy.

ah, the unnamed spokeswoman. at least a new "statement". you'd spit that kind of source into my face if i tried to run that past you.

 

[L.K.Eder]

i posted the attitude of the czech and polish public towards the glorious missile defense shield. the public opinion you claim to care about.

You posted polls and rumor, i posted quotes with names attached.

In short, YOU don't care about them, seeing as you want to lick Putin's nuts.

the russians object because they probably don't buy the official explanation that this shield is protection against IRAN.

Once again, so?

The Russians are not the masters of the world, and no, they aern't supposed to have a say in the affairs of other nations that don't like them.

Why are you so eiger to appease them?

You say they are no threat, then go on about how you want to kiss their ass.

it is also very transparent that you think the mighty american is better equipped to make decisions for those poor eastern european nations without their democratic input.

have a nice day

A statement that is truely monumental in cluelessness.

YOU are the one arguing that postion, and you say I think it!

blablabla,. licking putin's nuts, appease russia, kiss russias ass, you are showing your true intellect.

and your last statement about my cluelessness, hmmmmmmmmm, delicious.

 

[Si modo]

Russia whined that this system is offensive to Russia. It's not. Nothing is aimed at Russia and the midrange capabilities have nothing to do with anything Russia would launch at the USA.

Russia whined that the detection functionality of this system is a threat to Russia. This system provides no intelligence on Russia that we don't already have.

Yet, the USA has caved to Russia with nothing in return. It boggles the logical minds.

 

[Neser Boha]

US missile system's track record: test delays, failed launches, missed targets | World news | The Guardian

From the Article:
"The planned European missile defence system would have essentially no capability to defend against a real missile attack.

Like I said, the ONLY time it's successful is if the coordinates of the target are fed into the system first and if the day is nice and if no geese are flying around, then the success rate is barely above 50%.

You know, this info is freely available. If anyone really wants to know, it's easy to go look it up from a hundred reputable sites. And remember, it's scientists who are reporting this. They are the ones that have to be convinced, because they follow where the data leads. Republicans just make crap up.

You stated, "It doesn't work, so what's the point?". This does not support your statement at all.

F

Actually, the article says that the success rate is barely above 50% with the coordinates being plugged in beforehand - do you think they will have the luxury of that during an un-premeditated attack by a rogue state? Guardian being quite a reliable source - it does support his argument.

If you do not think it supports is argument, give us articulate and coherent arguments why it does not do so. Just stating 'it doesn't support your argument' will not convince anyone.

 

[rdean]

The Republican conundrum, Republicans hire scientists and engineers to create a “missile defense system”. Scientists and engineers, using the technology currently available, build the best one they can. The system can only shoot down a “target” if the “target” is placed in the path of the “defense missile”.

Republicans say, “See, it works, it shot down that missile.

Scientists and engineers, the people who designed and built the system, say, “No, it doesn’t work. We are years away from the technology to make it work”.

Now when a scientist says, “Years”, he means “decades. (As long as there is a Christian war on science, the real answer may be “never”.)

So, who do you believe? Republicans who are anti science? Or the people who actually designed and built the system?

So, the bottom line. If someone points a missile at you and says it’s for defense, but their own scientists and engineers say it is NO GOOD for defense, what is left? (Theme from Jeopardy here).

You got it – OFFENSE!

To me, this is a very “simple” choice. But I’m not Republican. I don’t speak “simpleton”.

 

[Si modo]

US missile system's track record: test delays, failed launches, missed targets | World news | The Guardian

From the Article:
"The planned European missile defence system would have essentially no capability to defend against a real missile attack.

Like I said, the ONLY time it's successful is if the coordinates of the target are fed into the system first and if the day is nice and if no geese are flying around, then the success rate is barely above 50%.

You know, this info is freely available. If anyone really wants to know, it's easy to go look it up from a hundred reputable sites. And remember, it's scientists who are reporting this. They are the ones that have to be convinced, because they follow where the data leads. Republicans just make crap up.

You stated, "It doesn't work, so what's the point?". This does not support your statement at all.

F

Actually, the article says that the success rate is barely above 50% with the coordinates being plugged in beforehand - do you think they will have the luxury of that during an un-premeditated attack by a rogue state? Guardian being quite a reliable source - it does support his argument.

If you do not think it supports is argument, give us articulate and coherent arguments why it does not do so. Just stating 'it doesn't support your argument' will not convince anyone.

I'll go with the MDA's test results over a reporter's. As this system is a mid-range system, the radar provides those coordinates - that is the whole purpose of having this type of radar in Poland and the Czech Republic - so that 'luxury' you mention is a given of the system.

 

[Si modo]

.... Republicans who are anti science? ....

How silly.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Does anyone actually need anymore proof that this idiot in charge of our country is not really looking out for the security of this country????

Then why not put the missiles in Alaska? That IS the the only border we share with Russia.


If the Europeans want missiles in their countries they should BUY and install their own. Why should we foot the bill when we can do what needs to be done in a less costly and more efficient manner?

As for Kyl, how much $$$$$$$$ did he get from armaments manufacturing, and what are his personal investments in those companies that had planned to profit?

Since we are doing everything on credit, it seems funny that the so-called fiscal conservatives want to push debt higher at the expense of US CITIZENS!

 

[L.K.Eder]

this article gives a more balanced view than just reporting right-wing chest thumping.

Polish, Czech governments undamaged by U.S. shield decision | International | Reuters

WARSAW/PRAGUE (Reuters) - Polish and Czech right-wingers accused Washington of caving in to Russia after it dropped plans for a missile shield on their soil, but the move is not expected to harm the governments in Warsaw and Prague.

..

In Poland, Prime Minister Donald Tusk's center-right, pro-EU government never embraced missile defense as keenly as its more conservative, Russophobic predecessor led by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the president's twin brother, which it ousted in 2007.

..

Tusk is widely expected to challenge Kaczynski for the presidency in an election next year. Poland is also due to elect a new parliament in 2011. Tusk and his ruling Civic Platform should win both elections, according to current opinion polls.

"The Kaczynskis try to present themselves as the real patriots who are pro-U.S. and anti-Russian ... but few in Poland believed the missile defense shield would make us safer," said Pawel Spiewak, a sociologist at Warsaw University.

..

Under that deal, the United States will help Poland to upgrade its air defences by stationing a Patriot battery on its soil temporarily over several years. Technical talks are continuing on how to implement the Patriot agreement.

..

Unlike Poland, where Tusk has a big parliamentary majority, Czech politics is currently in a state of turmoil after a court ruling scuppered plans to hold an early election this autumn.

But there too, political analysts saw little impact from the U.S. decision on Jan Fischer's caretaker government. As in Poland, the Czechs' overriding priority right now is to bring a burgeoning budget deficit under control.

"There have been many polls showing most people are against missile defense but people would rank the topic very low on the list of issues they are interested in," said Petr Just, political science lecturer at Charles University in Prague.

"The opponents of the radar will be thumping their chests... but (the decision) will have no impact."

PERCEPTIONS

Still, Obama's decision may harm perceptions of U.S. reliability in ex-communist "New Europe," which has steadfastly supported Washington in Iraq and Afghanistan. Poland has lost 10 soldiers in Afghanistan, out of a 2,000-strong contingent, and the Czechs have lost two of their 450 troops based there.

"(The east Europeans) will certainly be even more careful next time (the United States wants their support) and Washington may forget about the two countries joining any future "coalition of the willing" with any U.S. administration," the Warsaw-based DemosEuropa think-tank wrote in a commentary.

Poles are particularly irked that Obama chose to make his shield announcement on September 17, when they were marking the 70th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of eastern Poland after Moscow clinched a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany.

The day stands as a symbol for Poles of how big powers are prone to trample all over them when it suits them.

"It seems there are no Poland experts in the United States," said Radoslaw Markowski of the Polish Academy of Sciences.

i agree it was clumsy and unnecessary to make this announcement on the anniversary of the invasion of poland from the other side (soviet russia).


and

from the department of unsurprising events:

look who's talking:

former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton, a leading Bush-era hawk, was scathing.
"It's just unambiguously a bad decision," Bolton said. "Russia and Iran are the big winners. I just think it's a bad day for American national security."

yeah, right.

 

[Navy1960]

Let me see if i understand this correctly, "The Guardian" is the ultimate authority on US Missile Defense technology when, the actual people who test the systems, engineer them, design them, and post the data, are not. I see... So in that case I suppose that 41 of 50 actually is 50% then that is of course if you find the 9 failures and then look at those failures and then take from those failures data from a source that has zero credibility when it comes to defense matters.

Military officials can claim only a 50% hit rate, and only then in tests that are far removed from a real world attack scenario, said David Wright, a physicist and co-director of global security at the Union of Concerned Scientists in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

No credited Source Military Officials who? I can get a quote from a Airman that works at Luke AFB and call him a Military official. Oh and here is a little look at the Guardians so called scientists who were making this assesment on Missile defense...

The Union of Concerned Scientists is the leading science-based nonprofit working for a healthy environment and a safer world. UCS combines independent scientific research and citizen action to develop innovative, practical solutions and to secure responsible changes in government policy, corporate practices, and consumer choices.
About Us | Union of Concerned Scientists


Again, if you want to know if a system works or not, try to read the data that results from the tests and not some agenda based group that has zero credibilty in this technology. An environmental scientist has about as much professional opinion on Missile defense as the teenager working at the local Taco Bell.

 

[WillowTree]

Russia whined that this system is offensive to Russia. It's not. Nothing is aimed at Russia and the midrange capabilities have nothing to do with anything Russia would launch at the USA.

Russia whined that the detection functionality of this system is a threat to Russia. This system provides no intelligence on Russia that we don't already have.

Yet, the USA has caved to Russia with nothing in return. It boggles the logical minds.

not the usa,, obama and my mind isn't boggled cause I expected that's what he'd do, what he says he is going to do is just the opposite of what he actually does,, you have to play the reverse psychology game to figure him out!