Obama blames the rise of the machines for high unemployment.

[theal3]

Some quotes on technology:

The technological improvement in the production of A makes it possible to realize certain projects which could not be executed before because the workers required were employed for the production of A. The reduction of the number of workers in the A industry is caused by the increased demand of these other industries to which the opportunity to expand is offered.

Seen from the point of view of the consumers and the whole of society, machines appear as instruments that raise the productivity of human effort. They increase supply and make it possible to consume more material goods and to enjoy more leisure.

Ultimately, the goal of human society is to work less. Every advance we make is an attempt to make life easier and less of a burden. It is easier to call on a phone than send a letter or run over to a house. It is easier to drive across a state than to run 100 miles. It is easier to produce certain products with machines than with people. Ultimately, a society where we all work less is desireable. Maybe if machines did all the hard labor for us, we could focus on intellect and creativity instead.

The utopia of technophobes is a land where everyone is working hard to produce products that could be produced with less work. The utopia of free marketers is a land where people work less because of technology yet still enjoy higher standards of living. Take your pick.

Very well said. And more time to become educated and invent produce and create and solve more problems. We just need to be making more "things" here at home so people have "jobs" to buy these things.

 

[Mr.Nick]

YouTube - ‪Obama Blames High Unemployment on the ATM and Automation #atmfacts‬‏

YouTube - ‪Obama claims atms are killing jobs‬‏


Are you kidding? Look at all the jobs the machines create: invent, production, program with updates, maintain, market & sell, fill. Look at the money in production time they save us. All versus the 1 teller they "may" replace.
It's just sad that our president is so eager to excuse away his own inept policies that his excuse is just as pathetic as the results of his policies.

This really shows how ******* stupid Obama is...

So we lose a bank teller but create numerous manufacturing jobs because those ATM's have to be manufactured. We also create numerous transportation jobs because those ATMs have to be transported, as well as the components that make those ATM's, not to mention more armed guard jobs are created because armed guards fill those machines with CASH which comes from the bank... Who gives the guards the cash?? the tellers, or an individual acting as a "teller."

If anything ATM's are GOOD for the economy - not bad...

Obama is a ******* retard that knows nothing other than "organizing" other retards...

 

[Steelplate]

Taken care of?...By whom?
The only responsibility here is for each of us to take care of our selves.
Each of us as individuals have the responsibility to improve our skill sets and make our selves marketable in the job force.
Looks like on Planet Steeplate, companies should be prepared to "make work" for anyone who may be displaced by technology.
What you suggest is lunacy.
One of the main reasons why US industry is lagging behind the rest of the worlds dominant industrial nations is US industries failed to modernize plants. These companies became non competitive in the global marketplace.
And of course we get to the root of your whiny
ant.....Collective bargaining. Look genius, part of the reason why US based industry lags behind is having to cow tow to the unions. Unions made American labor so expensive and so lacking in productivity as compared to the developing industrial nations, companies had no choice but to boot the unions out and modernize facilities.
Do you really think business owners wanted to spend billions collectively to construct new plants in other countries while having to write off huge losses? It takes years to recoup those investments.

Bullshit. At this point and time(and it's been that way for quite a while) Unionized workers make up a mere 7% of the workforce. Most of THOSE people are Public Sector employees. Funny how back in the 70's, Unionized workers made up 25% of the workforce and there were plenty of jobs. Funny how the top tax rate was 60% or so and there were plenty of jobs.

No, it wasn't Unions, it wasn't collective bargaining and it wasn't taxation. It was Pure greed... Nothing more. They found the slave labor they wanted and our wonderful legislators provided them the avenue to take advantage of it.

BTW.... Let's dream up a scenario... let's suppose there's a breakthrough in robotics in which it's possible to have machines do just about every task. What happens to PEOPLE then? That day is not all that far away. And No, I am not a technophobe. I just think if Big business keeps sucking the country dry asking for tax breaks, choosing to invest in foreign countries rather than our own, and not giving a damn about the shrinking middle class and the rising number of poverty level people... this country is doomed.

So yes... when the fat cats are making the level of profit that has never been seen before and still choose to sit on what? $2-3 Trillion dollars rather than invest here? Yeah.... I'd say they are ******* traitors, not heroes. Money is leaving this country in droves and it's not coming back.

But people like you would rather blame a crackhead in some slum somewhere than have the courage to look at where our real problems lie and call these "so called" Job Creators out for what they are.

 

[editec]

And if the farmer buys more land because of the tractor and uses the same amount of work, he is not creating more jobs if he bought that land and hired workers to use a plow. Maybe that land was used by another farmer, but the tractor made the other farmer less efficient so he went out of business and lost his job. Technological advances in production always function to reduce the amount of people it takes to do a job. But my argument is that because of the resources it frees up, there will be more jobs everywhere else, so on net balance employment will not decrease and people may simply get jobs somewhere else. Do you agree with that?

No, the emboldened sentence is where you're missing the point.

That is NOT what is happening.

Back when the USA was migrating from an agricultural nation to an industrialized nation, the folks coming off the farms could find work in the expanding industrial base.

Additionally, they were qualified to assume those positions because factory work was something most people could do.

But the advances in technology now are NOT creating opportunities for as many workers as those advances are displacing.

And WORSE, the advances in technology are moving UP THE EMPLOYMENTS SKILLS FOODCHAIN, TOO.

We are systenmatically making an increasingly larger percentage of our population (and this IS happening worldwide, too) ECONOMICALLY unviable.

IN the 19th century it was farm laboring jobs that machines and technology eliminated.

In the later half of the 20th century it was industrial and clerical jobs that advances in technology started replacing.

In the beginning of THIS CENTURY we're seeing advancing technology replacing formerly highly skilled workers.

And the number of jobs that are created to service this techological society is a pittance compared to the numbers of jobs that the technology is replacing.

In the last 15 year techology has replaced 6 workers in my tiny tiny operation. While I am able to increase my output my laboring force went down 75%

Multiply my experience by thousands and thousands of small and medium and large businesses, and you discover that we are created an ENTRENCHED SYSTEMIC class of people who are virtually UNEMPLOYABLE.


Now how does that effect every one of us, regardless of how secure we might be in our current billets?


The under and unemployable do NOT pay taxes, they do NOT purchases goods and they do become a drag on society precisely because, while willing to work, there is no job that will pay them enough to BE good citizens and consumers in this CONSUMER DRIVEN economy.

We are creating a SYSTEMIC problem in this society and aren't even talking about it realistically

Every time this issue comes up, people dismiss it by proposing that people just need more education.

But as I have already point out, even EDUCATED people are being effected by this problem, because techological advances in THINKING AND MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS are making even well educated people REDUNDANT.

It's time to START thinking about how we deal with a problem that is now manifesting and threatening not just the stupid and skilless, but the well educated and highly skilled workers, too.

This problem will not go away because techological advances are taking jobs from people such that there is no educational path that any worker can take that will INSURE that they won't be reducatant TOMORROW.

Many software programmers are just now beginning to feel that pinch.

I can assure you that sooner or later most people who depend on working (be it with their hands or with their heads) for their rice bowls are going to become redundant.

The ONLY socultion to this is a radical RETHINK of the social contract.

Market forces do NOT have a solution for this problem, folks.

Why not?

Because our economic system is based on a theory of SCARCITY AND WANT.

But techology is creating a system of PLENTY produced by less and less workers.

Unhappily, one needs to be linked into that economy system with economically viable employment to garner the income to take advantage of it.

But as the PROFITS go only to the CAPITALISTS, the working classes grow poorer and poorer until the economy we have in place no longer SERVES the people in it.

Right now I'd say about 20% of the population of all workers are basically REPLACEABLE by machines.

In ten years? Add some more percent of the workforces to that problem

In twenty years, most of you who are feeling so sanguine because you currently have marketable skills?

You're hosed, too.

And believe me when I tell you that very few of your will have the resources or even the mental acuity to retrain for a job that you can do better or more cheaply than a thinking machine.

If they ever build a thinking machine in my lifetime I will start worrying.

They already do.

One example how a thinking logical machine impacted my business was when PhoptoShop adding editing features using FUZZY LOGIC.

So our ability to clean up images increased enormously, thus eliminating the need for a human being to make that fuzzy logic DECISON nearly one pixel at a time.

An image that might have taken a human an hour to clean is now cleaned using that FUIZZY LOGIC in a FEW SECONDS.

If you are right that there are simply not enough new jobs to go around we will see signs of that at some point.

We already are.

We have been for sometime, but we've been telling ourselves that the cause of it was something else.

To some extent the service industries have been picking up the slack, but one can see the effect when you look at the pay losses people migrating from formerly skilled work to service jobs.

Presently no one, except for a few nutcases, is saying that. Everyone is saying that the current unemployment numbers are just a blip and that the economy will eventually recover.

Well I am one of those nutcases, I suppose.

I am saying that automatic is in part responsible for entrechned un-and-under-employment and that this problem is getting worse at an accelorating rate, too.

The next few decades I expect that we will start talking about this problem because this is a problem that economic recovery (from this particualr economic meltdown) is NOT going to solve.

If anything recover from this current economic meltdown is gives industry the incentive to agument that trend to replace workers with better technology.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Taken care of?...By whom?
The only responsibility here is for each of us to take care of our selves.
Each of us as individuals have the responsibility to improve our skill sets and make our selves marketable in the job force.
Looks like on Planet Steeplate, companies should be prepared to "make work" for anyone who may be displaced by technology.
What you suggest is lunacy.
One of the main reasons why US industry is lagging behind the rest of the worlds dominant industrial nations is US industries failed to modernize plants. These companies became non competitive in the global marketplace.
And of course we get to the root of your whiny
ant.....Collective bargaining. Look genius, part of the reason why US based industry lags behind is having to cow tow to the unions. Unions made American labor so expensive and so lacking in productivity as compared to the developing industrial nations, companies had no choice but to boot the unions out and modernize facilities.
Do you really think business owners wanted to spend billions collectively to construct new plants in other countries while having to write off huge losses? It takes years to recoup those investments.

Bullshit. At this point and time(and it's been that way for quite a while) Unionized workers make up a mere 7% of the workforce. Most of THOSE people are Public Sector employees. Funny how back in the 70's, Unionized workers made up 25% of the workforce and there were plenty of jobs. Funny how the top tax rate was 60% or so and there were plenty of jobs.

No, it wasn't Unions, it wasn't collective bargaining and it wasn't taxation. It was Pure greed... Nothing more. They found the slave labor they wanted and our wonderful legislators provided them the avenue to take advantage of it.

BTW.... Let's dream up a scenario... let's suppose there's a breakthrough in robotics in which it's possible to have machines do just about every task. What happens to PEOPLE then? That day is not all that far away. And No, I am not a technophobe. I just think if Big business keeps sucking the country dry asking for tax breaks, choosing to invest in foreign countries rather than our own, and not giving a damn about the shrinking middle class and the rising number of poverty level people... this country is doomed.

So yes... when the fat cats are making the level of profit that has never been seen before and still choose to sit on what? $2-3 Trillion dollars rather than invest here? Yeah.... I'd say they are ******* traitors, not heroes. Money is leaving this country in droves and it's not coming back.

But people like you would rather blame a crackhead in some slum somewhere than have the courage to look at where our real problems lie and call these "so called" Job Creators out for what they are.

Slave labor?
Yes yes yes...All of the pro union people look at their demise as pure greed. We've played that tune before and it's really boring. Next.
Ok....your last paragraph is all over the place. It makes no sense. It's a rant.
We're discussing technology and it's effects on labor. You're going off on fat cats, profits and foreign competition....Jesus Christ...I bet you don't use turn signals while driving either.
Where are the "real problems"?
What $2 to $3 trillion dollars? To what do you refer? I have read about this mythical pot of gold US businesses are allegedly "sitting on" ,but have never seen proof of it's existence.
For a moment, I will stipulate the money exists.
IN your opinion what is the primary function of a business? This question ties directly with profit vs expenses. In particular, labor.
BTW, the middle class continues to expand while each few years the federal bureaucracy in charge of calculating the gross income of the poverty line keeps having to revise that number upward.
Oh, BTW, you still have not addressed the "taken care of "issue.....Wanna give that a whirl?

 

[rightwinger]

YouTube - ‪Obama Blames High Unemployment on the ATM and Automation #atmfacts‬‏

YouTube - ‪Obama claims atms are killing jobs‬‏


Are you kidding? Look at all the jobs the machines create: invent, production, program with updates, maintain, market & sell, fill. Look at the money in production time they save us. All versus the 1 teller they "may" replace.
It's just sad that our president is so eager to excuse away his own inept policies that his excuse is just as pathetic as the results of his policies.

This really shows how ******* stupid Obama is...

So we lose a bank teller but create numerous manufacturing jobs because those ATM's have to be manufactured. We also create numerous transportation jobs because those ATMs have to be transported, as well as the components that make those ATM's, not to mention more armed guard jobs are created because armed guards fill those machines with CASH which comes from the bank... Who gives the guards the cash?? the tellers, or an individual acting as a "teller."

If anything ATM's are GOOD for the economy - not bad...

Obama is a ******* retard that knows nothing other than "organizing" other retards...

Hmmmmm..sounds like you agree with our president

Maybe that's why he used the term efficiency

 

[Samson]

I will not use the self checkouts at stores because they do eliminate local jobs.
they do create jobs in Tiawan and China where the hardware is made though.

Yeah, I ride a horse and only buy homespun clothing for the same reason.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Bullshit. At this point and time(and it's been that way for quite a while) Unionized workers make up a mere 7% of the workforce. Most of THOSE people are Public Sector employees. Funny how back in the 70's, Unionized workers made up 25% of the workforce and there were plenty of jobs. Funny how the top tax rate was 60% or so and there were plenty of jobs.

I guess that depends on how you see the world.

Nixon imposed wage and price freezes, unemployment was higher, there were gas shortages, and we had inflation so bad they invented a term to describe it, stagflation.

By all means, lets us go back to those days.

No, it wasn't Unions, it wasn't collective bargaining and it wasn't taxation. It was Pure greed... Nothing more. They found the slave labor they wanted and our wonderful legislators provided them the avenue to take advantage of it.

Pure greed moved us from the stagnant economy of the 70s to the vibrant economy of the 90s? If that is true, and I will dispute that, what is your problem with greed?

BTW.... Let's dream up a scenario... let's suppose there's a breakthrough in robotics in which it's possible to have machines do just about every task. What happens to PEOPLE then? That day is not all that far away. And No, I am not a technophobe. I just think if Big business keeps sucking the country dry asking for tax breaks, choosing to invest in foreign countries rather than our own, and not giving a damn about the shrinking middle class and the rising number of poverty level people... this country is doomed.

You should read some science fiction sometime, or just watch Star Trek. They have machines that do everything imaginable, including making food from thin air, yet no one is dying on the streets. That is because, unlike you, they adapted to the changing world and found ways to channel their interests into something they enjoy.

So yes... when the fat cats are making the level of profit that has never been seen before and still choose to sit on what? $2-3 Trillion dollars rather than invest here? Yeah.... I'd say they are ******* traitors, not heroes. Money is leaving this country in droves and it's not coming back.

Money is nothing but a government imposed means to control trade, why should I care where it is?

But people like you would rather blame a crackhead in some slum somewhere than have the courage to look at where our real problems lie and call these "so called" Job Creators out for what they are.

I am not blaming anyone for anything, you are. I just enjoy pointing out how absurd your worldview is.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They already do.

One example how a thinking logical machine impacted my business was when PhoptoShop adding editing features using FUZZY LOGIC.

So our ability to clean up images increased enormously, thus eliminating the need for a human being to make that fuzzy logic DECISON nearly one pixel at a time.

An image that might have taken a human an hour to clean is now cleaned using that FUIZZY LOGIC in a FEW SECONDS.

Photoshop does not think, it applies an algorithm developed using millions of man hours of data to clean up images. If that algorithm selects the wrong answer a human still has to come in behind it, undo the work, and fix it. All Photoshop does is save the guy doing the editing the tedium of having to do that with every single picture he is editing.

Well I am one of those nutcases, I suppose.

I am saying that automatic is in part responsible for entrechned un-and-under-employment and that this problem is getting worse at an accelorating rate, too.

The next few decades I expect that we will start talking about this problem because this is a problem that economic recovery (from this particualr economic meltdown) is NOT going to solve.

If anything recover from this current economic meltdown is gives industry the incentive to agument that trend to replace workers with better technology.

If you study history you will see that in the early days of the industrial revolution people were saying almost exactly the same thing you are right now, turns out they were wrong. That does not prove you wrong by any means, but it does provide evidence that making predictions of what will happen in the future is an iffy proposition.

 

[Jack Fate]

I was just wondering.........Does Obama know that all 57 states have ATMs now?

 

[code1211]

The President is not wrong. In just two years I've seen automation reduce the personnel size in my office by 30%.

Is that 30% as compared to overall sales or 30% ascompared to the level of employment two years ago?

 

[GoneBezerk]

Obama is just plain stupid about economics.

Liberals always think it's better to have 20 union workers build a car than only 5 with the help of robots, DAMN TECHNOLOGY!

At Wal Mart, they should hire 10-15 sloths to work the checkout lines instead of self-checkout machines that help speed up the checkout process is the mentality of liberals. We should be forced to stand in lines at the bank to get our money, that damn ATM is just too convenient.

If liberals were able to control every part of our lives, we would eventually de-evolve back to sticks and stone cavemen.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I will not use the self checkouts at stores because they do eliminate local jobs.
they do create jobs in Tiawan and China where the hardware is made though.

Yeah, I ride a horse and only buy homespun clothing for the same reason.

I got rid of my fridge and bought a true "icebox". It's awesome, I hitch up the wagon and me and the mules head over to the ice house, then stop at the General Store on the way back to load up on whale oil for the lanterns. It's a nice day trip.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Obama is just plain stupid about economics.

Liberals always think it's better to have 20 union workers build a car than only 5 with the help of robots, DAMN TECHNOLOGY!

At Wal Mart, they should hire 10-15 sloths to work the checkout lines instead of self-checkout machines that help speed up the checkout process is the mentality of liberals. We should be forced to stand in lines at the bank to get our money, that damn ATM is just too convenient.

If liberals were able to control every part of our lives, we would eventually de-evolve back to sticks and stone cavemen.

What did you expect? He's lived on the dole his entire life.

 

[ShackledNation]

If you study history you will see that in the early days of the industrial revolution people were saying almost exactly the same thing you are right now, turns out they were wrong. That does not prove you wrong by any means, but it does provide evidence that making predictions of what will happen in the future is an iffy proposition.

Exactly. The same technophobic arguments are put forth again and again, and supporters of such arguments always try to claim "this time it is different."

Let me quote Einstein

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Read more: Insanity: doing the same thing... at BrainyQuote

 

[GoneBezerk]

Obama's father was an African socialist and his mother a left-wing mystic, so he didn't fall far from the family tree despite his grandparents being sort of middle of the road white people.

He then got influenced even more through his college years at Columbia and Harvard by the leftist views that are anti-capitalist and pro-community socialist model morons.

His work as a community organizer and law professor prior to running for political office in Illinois shows he has ZERO experience in the business world. He is a product of bad parents, biased schools and leftist jobs....

Obama is just plain stupid about economics.

Liberals always think it's better to have 20 union workers build a car than only 5 with the help of robots, DAMN TECHNOLOGY!

At Wal Mart, they should hire 10-15 sloths to work the checkout lines instead of self-checkout machines that help speed up the checkout process is the mentality of liberals. We should be forced to stand in lines at the bank to get our money, that damn ATM is just too convenient.

If liberals were able to control every part of our lives, we would eventually de-evolve back to sticks and stone cavemen.

What did you expect? He's lived on the dole his entire life.

 

[Steelplate]

Slave labor?
Yes yes yes...All of the pro union people look at their demise as pure greed. We've played that tune before and it's really boring. Next.
Ok....your last paragraph is all over the place. It makes no sense. It's a rant.
We're discussing technology and it's effects on labor. You're going off on fat cats, profits and foreign competition....Jesus Christ...I bet you don't use turn signals while driving either.
Where are the "real problems"?
What $2 to $3 trillion dollars? To what do you refer? I have read about this mythical pot of gold US businesses are allegedly "sitting on" ,but have never seen proof of it's existence.
For a moment, I will stipulate the money exists.
IN your opinion what is the primary function of a business? This question ties directly with profit vs expenses. In particular, labor.
BTW, the middle class continues to expand while each few years the federal bureaucracy in charge of calculating the gross income of the poverty line keeps having to revise that number upward.
Oh, BTW, you still have not addressed the "taken care of "issue.....Wanna give that a whirl?

Yeah.... slave labor. When you hire Chinese people who have been slopping around in rice paddies for centuries for $1/hr to avoid paying a decent wage here in America... that is slave labor. Or Mexicans at $1.25.... or Indians for whatever they make. Funny how they subsidize their "cost of doing business" but they feel no empathy to American Citizens who have to live in a country where the cost of living is 100X more than in any of the countries they choose to employ. In fact, in China.... they are selling their own futures(and ours as a country) for that same slave labor. From what I've read, they have to share their own intellectual property to the Chinese government in order for them to do business there.

What is the Primary function of a business? To make money. However, the real function of a business is not to make money at the expense of their home country that ALLOWS them to make the level of profit that they do. Where is the sense of Citizenry? Corporations want to be treated as "people" but they don't want to play by the same ethical rules that everyday people do....do they?

The $2-3 TRILLION that they are sitting on is a fact. The only object of dispute is why they aren't investing it in this country. They say.... "they are scared to" because of taxes and whatnot... I, and many others say... They are choosing NOT TO... because they want an administration that will suck their collective dicks all day long... In short, the cost of stagnation is worth it to them for now. No matter who is president come 2012, you will see a difference in their purse strings... they can't hold out forever. If it's Obama... they will loosen their grip on that money... if it's someone else... they will do the same. They know that if you are standing still, you are falling behind. This is their power play. I hope they fail and realize that the will of THE PEOPLE holds more power than their Capital assets.

Then perhaps, we will see a Corporate Community that is realistic in their goals and not trying to maximize their share while minimizing labor's share. Don't get me wrong.... IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM... am I(or anyone but the MOST Radical lefties) calling for equal pay with CEO's or anything like that. But damn it, people need to keep a decent roof over their heads... people need to feed their families and keep them clothed keep them safe.

IF all that I would like to see were to happen... the rich would still be very rich... maybe not obscenely rich... but they would be able to do just about anything they would want to do... but the people that are slaving away to make them money would be a little better off. And that's all most of us want. We don't want to be "Given something for nothing". We don't want to "start at the top", we don't want government to take care of our every whim.

That is the bullshit talking points of the extreme right that is bought and paid for by the same people that is making all the money. They want you to vote against your own self interest and for them.

Finally... Taken Care of.... you asked for it... you got it. First off, you have to recognize the scenario in which I was speaking. The Scenario was that robotics and automation took care of the vast majority of jobs and chores in a business setting. That would lead to a huge amount of people who were not NEEDED for much of any job that is available now. OF course, in other countries... it still may be more cost effective to use the aforementioned "slave labor" than it would be to use machines. In that Scenario... Being "taken care of" would mean housing, Food, Clothing and Health Care. Make no mistake... if you watch the Science Channel at all, or read Technology oriented media... we are not all that far away from that very scenario... 20-30 years perhaps. It's already been happened in Japan since 2001, and CNC Machining in America does it now. They need very little human interaction. As Technology evolves, you will see more and more of it.

At this point in time... Health Care would be a great place to start with the being "taken Care of" thing. Our system is bloated, way too expensive and is working on a rather dumb platform... Fee for service. Fee for service means that doctors and hospitals can sneak in tests and procedures that aren't necessary to pad their payouts. A Fee For OUTCOME platform is that the least expensive procedure necessary to provide a positive outcome is the norm. Why should one get a Chest Xray for a common Cold or the Flu? Both of those diseases will run it's course. If it lingers beyond a reasonable time frame... THEN you go on antibiotics in case it's bacterial. IF it still is persistent... THEN you get a sputum culture and a Chest Xray. Our whole Medical infrastructure is based on profit and a sense of co-dependency between Pharmaceutical companies(Drugs), Med Tech Companies(tests and procedures) and doctors.

My solution is to make Hospitals and Doctors Non-Profit. They will still get their money and live better than most... but they will NOT be allowed to gouge the population. Likewise, Med/Tech and Big Pharma will have to fall in line.

I know, I know... what about INNOVATION????? I'll tell you what happens to innovation. When huge profits aren't the motivation anymore... Innovation will come from sharing information with the rest of the world and they can work on new drugs and products.... TOGETHER! After all... isn't that what Medical science is all about? Saving peoples' lives? Not just those lives who can afford to pay... but all lives?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Considering you libs hate topics that put the messiah in a poor light im amazed that you have kept this thread alive as much as everyone else. I guess the old saying the truth hurts has some basis to it eh?

 

[Steelplate]

Nice easy retort that carries no substance Grampa.... Keep up the good work.

 

[rightwinger]

Considering you libs hate topics that put the messiah in a poor light im amazed that you have kept this thread alive as much as everyone else. I guess the old saying the truth hurts has some basis to it eh?

Why?

Obama was correct in what he said....only conservatives don't get it