Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[Shusha]

You have 2 sides that believe they have a right to self-determination. The heart of the peace process is reconciling those 2 beliefs.

It is not a zero-sum game. They can both have those rights. That is the simplest, easiest, most fair and reasonable solution to the conflict. It has been the solution for every other territory which had this type of conflict between ethnic groups. The former USSR, former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia, former Sudan, former Korea, former Ottoman Empire. Hell, it even happened to PALESTINE. There are literally dozens and dozens of examples in the past 100 years. It is the norm in international politics.

So what is the hold up?

 

[Sixties Fan]

BlackFlag

The reason I ask about your stand on self-determination, is that your entrance into this thread was to claim that the declaration of self-determination is an obstacle to peace. And I reject that idea. On the contrary, the acceptance of self-determination for BOTH peoples is essential to peace. It is the core of peace.

Now it seems from your last two posts that you reject the idea of rights to self-determination by either side. And presumably that right for all other peoples as well.

Your point on this thread, then, is to remove the US (at least, I assume you are American) from the Arab/Israeli conflict because that conflict hurts you and the US?

You have 2 sides that believe they have a right to self-determination. The heart of the peace process is reconciling those 2 beliefs. The government that is in power and holds the cards just said that 1 of those groups now officially has no right to self-determination in the country. That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

The Palestinians have a right to self-determination in Gaza.
And they will have a right to self determination in the areas A and B of Judea and Samaria, as per the Oslo Accords and any negotiations the Arabs finally agree to sit for. Which they refuse to do.

The Arabs, or Bedouins, or Druze, etc have absolutely NO RIGHTS to self-determination in Israel because they ARE NOT the indigenous people of the land.
They have the right to live in Israel, as they do, and have all the rights that Israel grants them.

The opposite is not true.

There are no Jews in ancient Jewish homeland of TranJordan or Gaza.
No Jews allowed to live in Areas A and B of the PA. They never will be allowed to.
And Abbas has clearly declared that no Jews will be allowed to live in Judea and Samaria once the State of Palestine comes to be.

Sure, equate it to America and the Civil rights with no understanding at all of what the conflict is about and what self-determination actually means.

Arabs and other non Jews DO have the same rights in Israel. Those rights have not been taken away because Israel has always been and will continue to be the Ancient homeland of the Jewish People, with the Jewish People having self-determination.


Try not to change the reality of what Israel is and the rights it has always granted all who live there.

The opposite is true of Jews who still live in Muslim countries.

 

[rylah]

What water fountains?

Really? I didn’t think the bloodstained Holy Land was that backwards

And You come to this conclusion by which part of the law?

The bloodstain is from the millenia of death and violence cursing the land. The discrimination part is from Jews declaring that no infidel has a right to self determination.

Like Germans are banned from self determination in France?

How dare they...

No France doesn’t have any law declaring citizens of German heritage do not have a right to self determination. That’s probably why the world isn’t coming after them and why they’ve been at peace for so long.

The law we discuss doesn't say that either.
Israel's independence is a fact that allows a unique opportunity for the Jewish nation, on it's historic homeland, that it lacks in any other place or state - is a mere statement of reality and logic.

Seems like common sense.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Do you believe that the Arab Palestinian people have a fundamental right to self-determination? And that they should be supported in obtaining it?

No, but I wouldn’t care if they felt that way if it didn’t affect me.

How does it affect you?

YOU are choosing to live in fear.

YOU are choosing in seeing both sides as the ones who started and will not end that conflict.

YOU are choosing to see Jews and Israel as being the "Masters" of America

YOU are the one who wants America to stop helping Israel and ONLY Israel.
Let America keep giving aid to the Palestinians, Saudi, Jordanians, Syrians, Russians, etc.

But Israel........Thanks, but no thanks.

So, where exactly is your level handed dealings for both sides?

Do you want the USA to stop aid to ALL others but to Americans?
Why? Why should it? When has the USA not been involved in helping others as it wants others to help this country, when necessary?

I would absolutely love for the U.S. to stop giving aid to all of those countries. Except maybe Jordan. Are they currently fueling any slaughters or conflicts? Does it help poverty there?

You have been completely unhinged and inventing failing strawmen for most of this thread. I won’t be responding to you again.

LOL
Jordan is one of the worst about equal rights.
Just ask the Arabs who are being called Palestinians what rights they have been getting and being allowed to keep by the Jordan Monarchy.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Jordanian citizens of Palestinian origin in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan ... have the full rights of citizenship and all its obligations, the same as any other citizen irrespective of his origin. -King Hussein, Amman, July 31, 1988

We are Jordanians if the government needs us, but Palestinians if we want something from the government.-Dr. Walid, Amman, January 29, 2009

(full article online)

Stateless Again | Palestinian-Origin Jordanians Deprived of their Nationality

 

[Shusha]

That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

Wait?! Are you saying that POC as a defined cultural group in the US should have the right to self-determination and sovereignty in the US? If so -- I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[BlackFlag]

You have 2 sides that believe they have a right to self-determination. The heart of the peace process is reconciling those 2 beliefs.

It is not a zero-sum game. They can both have those rights. That is the simplest, easiest, most fair and reasonable solution to the conflict. It has been the solution for every other territory which had this type of conflict between ethnic groups. The former USSR, former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia, former Sudan, former Korea, former Ottoman Empire. Hell, it even happened to PALESTINE. There are literally dozens and dozens of examples in the past 100 years. It is the norm in international politics.

So what is the hold up?

Lots of hold ups, and little significant action or concessions. Which has led me to believe there is no serious movement for peace on either side; just movements for victory. I don’t really care which happens, but I don’t have any say. So when I see something like this declaration, which was a totally unnecessary provocation, I will comment on it. I will also maintain that the U.S. has nothing to gain from inserting itself.

 

[BlackFlag]

That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

Wait?! Are you saying that POC as a defined cultural group in the US should have the right to self-determination and sovereignty in the US? If so -- I agree wholeheartedly.

You have been arguing the opposite for this entire thread.

 

[Shusha]

That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

Wait?! Are you saying that POC as a defined cultural group in the US should have the right to self-determination and sovereignty in the US? If so -- I agree wholeheartedly.

You have been arguing the opposite for this entire thread.

WTF? No, I have not. I have consistently been arguing for the rights to self-determination by ALL peoples.

 

[BlackFlag]

That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

Wait?! Are you saying that POC as a defined cultural group in the US should have the right to self-determination and sovereignty in the US? If so -- I agree wholeheartedly.

You have been arguing the opposite for this entire thread.

WTF? No, I have not. I have consistently been arguing for the rights to self-determination by ALL peoples.

Not for gentile citizens of Israel or others who claim it as homeland.

 

[Shusha]

Lots of hold ups, and little significant action or concessions. Which has led me to believe there is no serious movement for peace on either side; just movements for victory. I don’t really care which happens, but I don’t have any say. So when I see something like this declaration, which was a totally unnecessary provocation, I will comment on it. I will also maintain that the U.S. has nothing to gain from inserting itself.

How is a declaration of self-determination a "provocation"? Contrasted with violent attempts to cross the border and murder Israelis?

 

[rylah]

Update:
An important part of the law was rejected, among the opponents was President Rivlin.
The law was about to allow municipalities to reject non-Jewish residents.

The clause would allow for communities, including "of a single religion or a single nationality", to build separate towns.
http://www.iataskforce.org/sites/default/files/resource/resource-1586.pdf

This includes Arab municipalities.

So it will be re-considered?

You already answered that. Look at the post I'm responding.

I don´t understand.

You already confirmed that the clause was rejected.
The law was passed with a pragraph of immutability.

 

[Olde Europe]

The Jews in Europe suffered the shoa, and sought a homeland of their own, understandably enough. They invaded, by the hundreds of thousands, Palestine. Their founding act arguably was what is known as nakba, the murder, rape, expropriation and expulsion of at least two thirds of the indigenous population.

That, to this day, is the ugly, original sin baked right into the foundation of the State of Israel, which has to remain unmentioned. That is what necessitates all the lying and the hypocrisy about self-determination, all the bad conscience that poisons any and all debates about the matter.

Now, Israel is seemingly to complete the genocide of 1948, officially declaring itself an apartheid state, and Arabs not equal before the law, which, of course, it was right from the start. Israel has been getting away with its murderous apartheid brutality for so long, so the current leadership apparently has decided it's time to close the 70-years old deal they've made with the devil, calculating they could get away with that, too.

Among the many saddening developments of recent years, this one still stands out.

 

[BlackFlag]

Lots of hold ups, and little significant action or concessions. Which has led me to believe there is no serious movement for peace on either side; just movements for victory. I don’t really care which happens, but I don’t have any say. So when I see something like this declaration, which was a totally unnecessary provocation, I will comment on it. I will also maintain that the U.S. has nothing to gain from inserting itself.

How is a declaration of self-determination a "provocation"? Contrasted with violent attempts to cross the border and murder Israelis?

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor. That is a problem for you to solve, and for me to convince my country to leave it alone.

 

[rylah]

Like Germans are banned from self determination in France?

How dare they...

No France doesn’t have any law declaring citizens of German heritage do not have a right to self determination. That’s probably why the world isn’t coming after them and why they’ve been at peace for so long.

Do I have the feeling that you did not understand the France-Germany connection?

I doubt you have any understanding of much at all. It was irrelevant to the conversation, anyways. France does not have laws against citizens of German background.

Does France have any laws against any other people wanting to declare self-determination on its own soil?

Make your point, because France has no law targeting citizens to make them a secondary class. Stop pussyfooting around.

Neither does the law.
It only addresses the unique status of an indigenous nation in its' homeland.
It would be a nice gesture for the US to declare the unique status of the indigenous nations, and call it their homeland - just to be at least a bit polite .

 

[Shusha]

The Jews in Europe suffered the shoa, and sought a homeland of their own, understandably enough. They invaded, by the hundreds of thousands, Palestine. Their founding act arguably was what is known as nakba, the murder, rape, expropriation and expulsion of at least two thirds of the indigenous population.

That, to this day, is the ugly, original sin baked right into the foundation of the State of Israel, which has to remain unmentioned. That is what necessitates all the lying and the hypocrisy about self-determination, all the bad conscience that poisons any and all debates about the matter.

Now, Israel is seemingly to complete the genocide of 1948, officially declaring itself an apartheid state, and Arabs not equal before the law, which, of course, it was right from the start. Israel has been getting away with its murderous apartheid brutality for so long, so the current leadership apparently has decided it's time to close the 70-years old deal they've made with the devil, calculating they could get away with that, too.

Among the many saddening developments of recent years, this one still stands out.

You can't invade your own homeland. That is called return.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Jews in Europe suffered the shoa, and sought a homeland of their own, understandably enough. They invaded, by the hundreds of thousands, Palestine. Their founding act arguably was what is known as nakba, the murder, rape, expropriation and expulsion of at least two thirds of the indigenous population.

That, to this day, is the ugly, original sin baked right into the foundation of the State of Israel, which has to remain unmentioned. That is what necessitates all the lying and the hypocrisy about self-determination, all the bad conscience that poisons any and all debates about the matter.

Now, Israel is seemingly to complete the genocide of 1948, officially declaring itself an apartheid state, and Arabs not equal before the law, which, of course, it was right from the start. Israel has been getting away with its murderous apartheid brutality for so long, so the current leadership apparently has decided it's time to close the 70-years old deal they've made with the devil, calculating they could get away with that, too.

Among the many saddening developments of recent years, this one still stands out.

Sure, and the homeland the Jewish people sought had nothing to do with their ancestral homeland, where they have become sovereign over ONLY 20% of it, and having to defend that 20% from the invading Arabs who want the whole area to belong to Muslims and Muslims only.

Just as it did when the Ottoman Turkish Muslims had the area for 700 years.

Thank you for you History lesson. NOT.

And thank you for being ignorant as to what self-determination means, and what rights non-Jews always had, and continue to have in Israel.

The G-D of Abraham is the devil?

Such a extreme view, would you not say?

 

[Shusha]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

 

[fncceo]

but I might die in a terrorist attack tomorrow

 

[BlackFlag]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

Yes, I am American. Your declaration is a provocation because its purpose is to communicate to minority groups that they cannot be equal.