Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[rylah]

Lots of hold ups, and little significant action or concessions. Which has led me to believe there is no serious movement for peace on either side; just movements for victory. I don’t really care which happens, but I don’t have any say. So when I see something like this declaration, which was a totally unnecessary provocation, I will comment on it. I will also maintain that the U.S. has nothing to gain from inserting itself.

How is a declaration of self-determination a "provocation"? Contrasted with violent attempts to cross the border and murder Israelis?

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor. That is a problem for you to solve, and for me to convince my country to leave it alone.

Are there countries where minorities don't rise for revolution?

 

[BlackFlag]

Lots of hold ups, and little significant action or concessions. Which has led me to believe there is no serious movement for peace on either side; just movements for victory. I don’t really care which happens, but I don’t have any say. So when I see something like this declaration, which was a totally unnecessary provocation, I will comment on it. I will also maintain that the U.S. has nothing to gain from inserting itself.

How is a declaration of self-determination a "provocation"? Contrasted with violent attempts to cross the border and murder Israelis?

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor. That is a problem for you to solve, and for me to convince my country to leave it alone.

Are there countries where minorities don't rise for revolution?

Yes. The umbrella term for them is the “first world” countries.

 

[Shusha]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

Yes, I am American. Your declaration is a provocation because its purpose is to communicate to minority groups that they cannot be equal.

No. There is nothing in the declaration about people not being equal.

You and I ordered a pizza and we are going to share it. If I declare this half of the pizza is mine -- that is no provocation.

 

[rylah]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

Yes, I am American. Your declaration is a provocation because its purpose is to communicate to minority groups that they cannot be equal.

It's the right of every minority group to raise their issues in a democratic manner.

 

[rylah]

and, of course, they never identified as anything but Arab until encouraged to do so for propaganda purposes in the middle part of the 20th century.


Now, I don't expect the mental midget antisemites in this thread to acknowledge that as facts can't be allowed to get in the way of some good, old ethnic hatred, but a fact it is nevertheless.

Doesn’t matter if they call themselves Arabs or Christians or anything else. They are a secondary class in a theocracy.

They are not in a theocracy, mental midget. They are living in a state established as the home for a persecuted ethnic minority.

It is low functioning creeps like you who prove the need for such.

Of course it’s a theocracy. They deny equal status to non-Jews, and just put out an edict that reaffirms that.

Stop reading fiction and you will get to the truth.

Your "Of course" does not hold water anywhere in Israel, with anyone who is non Jewish.

The non Jews in Israel know better about their rights in Israel than you.

Israel is a country that denies citizenship to non-Jews, and just classified non-Jews as secondary citizens. So OF COURSE it is a theocracy.

False, Israeli law is specifically clear on the procedure of naturalization for anyone. it's called "Adults" in legal term. And at least 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jews.

 

[Bleipriester]

Update:
An important part of the law was rejected, among the opponents was President Rivlin.
The law was about to allow municipalities to reject non-Jewish residents.

The clause would allow for communities, including "of a single religion or a single nationality", to build separate towns.
http://www.iataskforce.org/sites/default/files/resource/resource-1586.pdf

This includes Arab municipalities.

So it will be re-considered?

You already answered that. Look at the post I'm responding.

I don´t understand.

You already confirmed that the clause was rejected.
The law was passed with a pragraph of immutability.

Your PDF reads:

"The bill does include a clause allowing communities, including "of a single religion or a single
nationality", to build separate towns, but the explanation notes to the bill state that this clause
will be reexamined when the bill is prepared for second and third reading."

So I asked if it will be re-considered later.

 

[Bleipriester]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

I don´t see a problem either. If Israel can´t be the Jewish home, what then?

 

[Shusha]

The clause would allow for communities, including "of a single religion or a single nationality", to build separate towns.
http://www.iataskforce.org/sites/default/files/resource/resource-1586.pdf

This includes Arab municipalities.

So it will be re-considered?

You already answered that. Look at the post I'm responding.

I don´t understand.

You already confirmed that the clause was rejected.
The law was passed with a pragraph of immutability.

Your PDF reads:

"The bill does include a clause allowing communities, including "of a single religion or a single
nationality", to build separate towns, but the explanation notes to the bill state that this clause
will be reexamined when the bill is prepared for second and third reading."

So I asked if it will be re-considered later.

It was removed.

 

[Shusha]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

I don´t see a problem either. If Israel can´t be the Jewish home, what then?

Israel IS the Jewish home. The only way it "can't" be the Jewish home is if people deny history, reality and basic facts.

 

[Bleipriester]

So it will be re-considered?

You already answered that. Look at the post I'm responding.

I don´t understand.

You already confirmed that the clause was rejected.
The law was passed with a pragraph of immutability.

Your PDF reads:

"The bill does include a clause allowing communities, including "of a single religion or a single
nationality", to build separate towns, but the explanation notes to the bill state that this clause
will be reexamined when the bill is prepared for second and third reading."

So I asked if it will be re-considered later.

It was removed.

Yes, I know. So you mean that this third reading is already done?

 

[rylah]

Stop reading fiction and you will get to the truth.

Your "Of course" does not hold water anywhere in Israel, with anyone who is non Jewish.

The non Jews in Israel know better about their rights in Israel than you.

Israel is a country that denies citizenship to non-Jews, and just classified non-Jews as secondary citizens. So OF COURSE it is a theocracy.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed Israel is the only country in all of the Middle East with citizens of several living faiths including Arab Muslims who even have equal voting rights in the Israeli Knesset. Amazing what we can learn here from America's & Israel's enemies.

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia

They do not have the same rights. What is the process for a family member of theirs to move to Israel vs. a Jew? Has the theocratic government declared Jews have no right to self determination? Don’t feel too embarrassed by the answers.

Why in the world would Israel allow all the Arabs in the world to move into Israel when the Arab world's intent is to destroy Israel from the inside as well as the outside?

What in the world do you think the expulsion of Jews from the Arab conquered lands in 1951 was all about?
Making Jews happy that they could finally go to Israel?
No !
It was about destroying Israel economically.

So, if Israel were to allow all the descendants of Arabs who tried to kill Jews and destroy Israel back in 1948, what would happen to Israel?
What is the Arab intent?

The rights of the Arab refugees, who are not really refugees, or the destruction of Israel by any possible means?

Israel does not allow anybody into the country, not just the Arabs they kicked out and are still trying to kick out.

No country allows "anybody" in their country.
Israeli law states clearly that Jews who are potentially dangerous to society cannot become citizens.

 

[BlackFlag]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

Yes, I am American. Your declaration is a provocation because its purpose is to communicate to minority groups that they cannot be equal.

No. There is nothing in the declaration about people not being equal.

You and I ordered a pizza and we are going to share it. If I declare this half of the pizza is mine -- that is no provocation.

You and I ordered a pizza, and you declared I can’t pick any of the toppings now or ever, and pizza’s from other places are not allowed. You gave me half the pizza to try to shut me up, but keep taking bites and knock me unconscious whenever I swat your hand away. Also, as much as you do, I believe the pizza belongs to me. How fun.

 

[rylah]

Why in the world would Israel allow all the Arabs in the world to move into Israel when the Arab world's intent is to destroy Israel from the inside as well as the outside?

What in the world do you think the expulsion of Jews from the Arab conquered lands in 1951 was all about?
Making Jews happy that they could finally go to Israel?
No !
It was about destroying Israel economically.

So, if Israel were to allow all the descendants of Arabs who tried to kill Jews and destroy Israel back in 1948, what would happen to Israel?
What is the Arab intent?

The rights of the Arab refugees, who are not really refugees, or the destruction of Israel by any possible means?

Israel does not allow anybody into the country, not just the Arabs they kicked out and are still trying to kick out.

Another one of your lies.

Israel will definitely attempt to "kick out" any Arab or Muslim who perpetrates any act of terrorism in Israel. All countries do it.

You are truly ill informed about Israel and what happens there. Who comes, who stays, who is allowed to stay.

Think most asylum seekers in Israel are African? Try Ukrainian


More. Give me more of what you read in your "We hate Israel" sites

Again, you abandon the conversation because you have no argument.

"I" abandoned the conversation !!!!

I will wait for all of your evidence to what you were alleging. I have seen none so far.

Links, please, to all the allegations you insist we are not discussing and have abandoned.

Evidence.

It is an open fact that the process of becoming a citizen in Israel is prohibitive unless you are of the Jewish faith. You cannot refute that. Also, the entire topic of this thread is about how the theocratic Israeli government declared that onlish Jewish followers have a right of self determination in Israel. They have no interest in a peace process with non-Jews, and the U.S. should abandon them to their fate whether it is a good one or a bad one.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
※→ Shusha, BlackFlag, et al,

The pro-Israeli element here, including our friend "Shusha," has consistently stated the concepts that all peoples, have the right to self-determination; just not at the expense of the Jewish People.

And I believe that the general consensus is that it would apply as well to those under colonial, foreign and alien powers administering effective control.

That is akin to the United States, instead of passing the civil rights act in the 60’s, had declared that black people will not have equal rights.

Wait?! Are you saying that POC as a defined cultural group in the US should have the right to self-determination and sovereignty in the US? If so -- I agree wholeheartedly.

You have been arguing the opposite for this entire thread.

WTF? No, I have not. I have consistently been arguing for the rights to self-determination by ALL peoples.

(COMMENT)

The basis argument which throws a wrench in the gears is that Israel is allowed to defend their right to self-determination, as a minority people surrounded by the military and political influences of the majority of the Arab Regional Representation which is trying so desperately to twist the international consensus to believe that they are the victims.

It is also important to understand that Israel (less than 9 million people) has the right to self-determination and the right to determine their own fate, even as they defend themselves in the face of Hostile Arab military and political intervention, aggression, and attempt at exploitation by four border states comprised of 124 million people (plus)(not including the other 18 Arab League nations).

One final point. Each time that Hostile Arab Component attempts to coerce or threaten Israel through acts of military intimidation or actual of aggression, the Arab Palestinian must be prepared to accept the consequences; including loss of territorial control.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

You and I ordered a pizza, and you declared I can’t pick any of the toppings now or ever, and pizza’s from other places are not allowed. You gave me half the pizza to try to shut me up, but keep taking bites and knock me unconscious whenever I swat your hand away. Also, as much as you do, I believe the pizza belongs to me. How fun.

The Basic Law we are discussing does not say anything about toppings. At all. But the principles of self-determination say that you get to pick your toppings and I get to pick my toppings.

My declaration that this is my half (with my toppings) is only a provocation if you think you should get the whole pizza. Otherwise, reasonable people would say that sharing the pie is the normal way of it. Just like all those other countries that split the pizza into pieces.

 

[Bleipriester]

In my country, minority groups are not rising up in revolution and risking their lives to fight a perceived oppressor.

Um. So you are NOT American?

But you dodged my question. Why is a declaration of self-determination (independence) a provocation?

I don´t see a problem either. If Israel can´t be the Jewish home, what then?

Israel IS the Jewish home. The only way it "can't" be the Jewish home is if people deny history, reality and basic facts.

It´s only because those people would use any argument against Israel, no matter how silly it is. And when you have criticism, you will be in their corner.

 

[rylah]

Another one of your lies.

Israel will definitely attempt to "kick out" any Arab or Muslim who perpetrates any act of terrorism in Israel. All countries do it.

You are truly ill informed about Israel and what happens there. Who comes, who stays, who is allowed to stay.

Think most asylum seekers in Israel are African? Try Ukrainian


More. Give me more of what you read in your "We hate Israel" sites

Again, you abandon the conversation because you have no argument.

"I" abandoned the conversation !!!!

I will wait for all of your evidence to what you were alleging. I have seen none so far.

Links, please, to all the allegations you insist we are not discussing and have abandoned.

Evidence.

It is an open fact that the process of becoming a citizen in Israel is prohibitive unless you are of the Jewish faith. You cannot refute that. Also, the entire topic of this thread is about how the theocratic Israeli government declared that onlish Jewish followers have a right of self determination in Israel. They have no interest in a peace process with non-Jews, and the U.S. should abandon them to their fate whether it is a good one or a bad one.

1) Debunked

Jerusalem Palestinians still seek Israeli citizenship despite Trump declaration

More Palestinians in Jerusalem seek Israeli citizenship

2) Debunked.

Herzl was not a religion Jew. None of the founders was a religious Theocrat. None of the Presidents or Prime Ministers of Israel have been Theocrats. Theocrats do not run the State of Israel.

Secularism in Israel - Wikipedia

3) You are too ignorant to understand the meaning of the expression
Self-Determination when it comes to the indigenous people of anywhere in the world. And you do it on purpose.

4) Debunked
Israel has a Peace Treaty with two of its Arab neighbors. Egypt and Jordan. You clearly do not care how those Peace Treaties came about.
You clearly do not know or care what the charters of the PLO, Hamas and Fatah say about negotiating peace with Israel, much less with Jews.

5) With the US help, or without, Israel would strive, as it is now.
It is not money which matters but what is done with it.

Arabs choose terrorism.

Jews choose progress.

Nothing was debunked in that post. In fact, you did not address either point I made except to say that indigenous people have a right to self-determination, except that by Israel’s reasoning all people of Abrahamic faith can claim to be indigenous to Israel; of course they passed a law saying that only those of the Jewish faith have any right to self determination.

Secular Jews and their house, including Jewish family members of other faiths or non-Jews are eligible to Israeli citizenship, how do You explain that?

 

[rylah]

The bloodstain is from the millennia of conquest and invasion of land which is the homeland of the Jewish people and the usurption of Jewish history as their own.

The other 2 Abrahamic religions claimed the same argument in favor of their own beliefs when it was their turn to spill blood in that cursed land.

Did they claim there was a Christian ethnicity or Muslim one?
They claimed the whole world. That's exactly the opposite of the Jewish claim for their national homeland

 

[Indeependent]

Genesis is a total fabrication. Other monotheistic religions existed before Judaism, they are just copying them.

The myths of ALL tribes/Nations on the planet are filled with historical truths and myths.

ONLY the Jewish Nation is attacked and there are endless allegations as to its "impossible " history, how the Jewish people, religion, culture, etc came to be.

Do it to ALL, and not just to the Jewish People.

Lots of nations are attacked. What a colossally stupid thing of you to say.

Name the current countries which are being attacked as to their validity to exist.

Or to the rights of its indigenous people being sovereign of any part of their ancient homeland.

Off the top of my head, Catalonia and Tibet. There are many others but I’m not sure how to look it up. As for countries that were attacked in the last hundred years alone, too many to name.

Oh... and Palestine.

Palestine was never a country. A Nation, or anything else but the name of a region, given by the Romans after they defeated the JEWS
in 135 CE.

Catalonia was never a country. It wants Independence from Spain, which is different.

Tibet is a country conquered by the Chinese. But the Tibetans are not being denied their sovereign or indigenous rights to Tibet.

China is taking over the Eastern hemisphere and these idiots are worried sick over Israel and Russia.

 

[rylah]

Israel is a country that denies citizenship to non-Jews, and just classified non-Jews as secondary citizens. So OF COURSE it is a theocracy.

The Basic Law does no such thing. You are spreading blatantly false information.

How does this happen, when the law says no such thing? A Holocaust survivor's daughter faces Israeli deportation over claims her father became Christian

An organized case of political provocation.
Tourist visa is not a way to citizenship, it sets many alarms due to common attempt like in any country. In such cases straightforwardness plays a crucial part in the analysis of the application.
Messianic Jews immigrate as non-Jewish relatives of Jews.
Straightforward Christians do too.