CDZ Nonsense About the Causes of Dark Ages

[william the wie]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

 

[Unkotare]

The the medieval warming period actually set in motion the conditions that would unleash the plagues that ravished China and Europe.

 

[yiostheoy]

My understanding of the 1500 BCE dark age in the Mediterranean was that it was caused by the wandering marauding armies returning from the Trojan War.

 

[yiostheoy]

My understanding of the 400 AD dark age in Europe was that it was caused by the invading armies of the Goths and the Fall of Rome.

 

[william the wie]

My understanding of the 1500 BCE dark age in the Mediterranean was that it was caused by the wandering marauding armies returning from the Trojan War.

What date of the Trojan War are you using?

 

[william the wie]

My understanding of the 400 AD dark age in Europe was that it was caused by the invading armies of the Goths and the Fall of Rome.

"Plagues and Peoples" and "The Columbian Exchange" are both relatively easy reads that changed the way history was seen back in the seventies. The Swine flu epidemic at the end of WWI, the ending of the 450 year Syphilis pandemic in 1943 and the polio epidemic start to finish produced a lot of data on how history really happened.

 

[Fishlore]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. It is a bit of a propaganda term, as was "Gothic" which was introduced similarly to stigmatize earlier architectural styles as barbarous. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

The millennium between the collapse of Mediterranean hegemony under Rome and the revival of Mediterranean trade under Venice and Genoa was one of very significant advances in the arts and sciences. Don't fall for the clever propaganda of guys like Gibbon or Voltaire. They had their own ideological axes to grind.

 

[william the wie]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. It is a bit of a propaganda term, as was "Gothic" which was introduced similarly to stigmatize earlier architectural styles as barbarous. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

The millennium between the collapse of Mediterranean hegemony under Rome and the revival of Mediterranean trade under Venice and Genoa was one of very significant advances in the arts and sciences. Don't fall for the clever propaganda of guys like Gibbon or Voltaire. They had their own ideological axes to grind.

While I agree in large part, network economies compound exponentially with population size. There are several network types but they are all based on Gauss' Law ([N+1]/2)N. With N representing the population new resources and new threats like diseases have a huge and lasting impact. Far East population control measures based on jaw-boning in Japan, criminal code in China and financial incentives in India. are causing economic problems.

 

[Unkotare]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. It is a bit of a propaganda term, as was "Gothic" which was introduced similarly to stigmatize earlier architectural styles as barbarous. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

The millennium between the collapse of Mediterranean hegemony under Rome and the revival of Mediterranean trade under Venice and Genoa was one of very significant advances in the arts and sciences. Don't fall for the clever propaganda of guys like Gibbon or Voltaire. They had their own ideological axes to grind.

The term "Dark Ages" had its origin in the Renaissance Period, not the Enlightenment, and it reflected an admiration of older Greek and Roman culture rather than a comparison with "new" ideas.

 

[Unkotare]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. It is a bit of a propaganda term, as was "Gothic" which was introduced similarly to stigmatize earlier architectural styles as barbarous. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

The millennium between the collapse of Mediterranean hegemony under Rome and the revival of Mediterranean trade under Venice and Genoa was one of very significant advances in the arts and sciences. Don't fall for the clever propaganda of guys like Gibbon or Voltaire. They had their own ideological axes to grind.

While I agree in large part, network economies compound exponentially with population size. There are several network types but they are all based on Gauss' Law ([N+1]/2)N. With N representing the population new resources and new threats like diseases have a huge and lasting impact. Far East population control measures based on jaw-boning in Japan, criminal code in China and financial incentives in India. are causing economic problems.

You keep posting this false claim about Japan despite being corrected several times.

 

[yiostheoy]

My understanding of the 1500 BCE dark age in the Mediterranean was that it was caused by the wandering marauding armies returning from the Trojan War.

What date of the Trojan War are you using?

Sometime around 1500 BCE -- hard to pinpoint something in prehistory and 35 centuries ago.

 

[william the wie]

Usually the Illiad is dated about @800 BC and the war to @1100 with the first records of Greek speakers @ 1450 BC and the Thera eruption at shortly before 1600. So, I find your timeline doubtful but more because there are at least three competing datelines as to when Egypt collapsed and for how long. Then there is the matter of major phoneme loss between Homer and the rise of the Greeks with their dark age starting around 1100 BC with the collapse of Mykanean civilization.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC

OT:
??? How do you come by starting point of 1600 BC for the Greek Dark Ages?

It's my understanding that the Greek Dark Ages ran from ~1100 BC, coinciding with the end of Mycenaean civilization, to somewhere around ~950 BC when writing reemerged. Has Martin been discredited? I am aware that some scholars cite the Greek Dark ages as running from 1200 BC to 750 BC, but I haven't seen anyone set the start of the Greek Dark Age at 1600 BC. One must remember the Minoan Greeks, part of Greek culture, ended somewhere between ~1450 BC to 1200 BC. Minoans documented their civilization, though they did so using the as yet undeciphered Linear A.


For better or worse, one good thing emerged when the Greeks began to write again after their quiescent era: vowels. Apparently the Greeks discovered that if they just added vowels to the Phoenician alphabet, they'd have a more efficient form of written communication. I think it's thus safe to say that while Greeks of the period (recognizing that "Greek" as applied to that and earlier eras is more a cultural thing far more so than a political one) went on a "long vacation" of sorts, visiting the Phoenicians, they nonetheless didn't just "put their brains in cave" and wander about aimlessly. Even though we don't have written Greek records from their Dark Age, it's hard to imagine they went from communicating in writing to having just an oral tradition and then "miraculously" invented vowels. Language is, after all, the sort of thing that has to be "socialized" and adopted.

 

[Picaro]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

As always the case it was several factors, and yes the Thera eruption was a big deal at the time, disrupted and severely weakened several city states, including the Mycenaeans, around the Aegean and trade routes, may even have been the cause of the Etruscans migration from Turkey to the Italian peninsula. There was also the mass invasions of the 'Sea Peoples', probably several clans and tribes sweeping down by land and sea apparently from the Black Sea regions. Very short blurb here:

The Invasion of the Sea Peoples (1200 BC) A... ;

Their aggregate effect was probably worse relative to the population levels then than the Huns and Mongols. Remains to be seen who or what in turn pushed them south, maybe a revival of the Aryan cultures in the far north; recent ruins found in Russia seem to indicate a city older than the Aryan invasions of India, thought to be a city in the Aryan homelands last I read a couple years ago, whoever they were. Egypt was also in one of its periods of weakness.

As for the 'Dark Age' after the fall of Rome the population of the Med region had been in major decline for many years by the time of the 'barbarian invasions', while the population levels in northern Europe were taking a big long term leap, due to a warming spell; the center of power began gravitating there and the Med region left to decline. Many of the barbarians adopted much of the Roman culture and organizational methods, best they could anyways. It wasn't until after the 12th century that Christianity effectively moderated pagan brutalism in most of northern Europe, and even then it never entirely disappeared among many of the Germanic tribes and east. Witch burning was a pagan practice, and still a popular superstition among the peasantry and rural nobility. there is even a rough geographical component to the witch burnings and other reversions to pagan brutalism. Medieval law listed other crimes under the witchcraft heading, like poisoning and other forms of murder, so the term shouldn't be taken too literally, and in any case there were relatively few such hysterias, despite the rabid anti-Catholic propaganda spewed out by the Protestants during the Reformation and after, not to mention a few Protestants resorted to it themselves when the occasion presented itself.

Examinations of the records indicate around 10,000 to 15,000 such sentences over a 900 year period, probably way way down in numbers from the pagan eras that preceded 800 A.D. in northern regions; many pagans were into human sacrifices throughout most of human history. If one were to believe the propaganda gibberish from the Reformation and Enlightenment Europe would have a population of around 5 people; the numbers claimed are just absurd.

 

[william the wie]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

As always the case it was several factors, and yes the Thera eruption was a big deal at the time, disrupted and severely weakened several city states, including the Mycenaeans, around the Aegean and trade routes, may even have been the cause of the Etruscans migration from Turkey to the Italian peninsula. There was also the mass invasions of the 'Sea Peoples', probably several clans and tribes sweeping down by land and sea apparently from the Black Sea regions. Very short blurb here:

The Invasion of the Sea Peoples (1200 BC) A... ;

Their aggregate effect was probably worse relative to the population levels then than the Huns and Mongols. Remains to be seen who or what in turn pushed them south, maybe a revival of the Aryan cultures in the far north; recent ruins found in Russia seem to indicate a city older than the Aryan invasions of India, thought to be a city in the Aryan homelands last I read a couple years ago, whoever they were. Egypt was also in one of its periods of weakness.

As for the 'Dark Age' after the fall of Rome the population of the Med region had been in major decline for many years by the time of the 'barbarian invasions', while the population levels in northern Europe were taking a big long term leap, due to a warming spell; the center of power began gravitating there and the Med region left to decline. Many of the barbarians adopted much of the Roman culture and organizational methods, best they could anyways. It wasn't until after the 12th century that Christianity effectively moderated pagan brutalism in most of northern Europe, and even then it never entirely disappeared among many of the Germanic tribes and east. Witch burning was a pagan practice, and still a popular superstition among the peasantry and rural nobility. there is even a rough geographical component to the witch burnings and other reversions to pagan brutalism. Medieval law listed other crimes under the witchcraft heading, like poisoning and other forms of murder, so the term shouldn't be taken too literally, and in any case there were relatively few such hysterias, despite the rabid anti-Catholic propaganda spewed out by the Protestants during the Reformation and after, not to mention a few Protestants resorted to it themselves when the occasion presented itself.

Examinations of the records indicate around 10,000 to 15,000 such sentences over a 900 year period, probably way way down in numbers from the pagan eras that preceded 800 A.D. in northern regions; many pagans were into human sacrifices throughout most of human history. If one were to believe the propaganda gibberish from the Reformation and Enlightenment Europe would have a population of around 5 people; the numbers claimed are just absurd.

Only big disagreement is that non-disease related die offs can actually lead to disease related die offs if body disposal cannot keep up with the deathrate. That said, what do you think about this relatively new theory that irrigation works and agricultural activity in general can change the climate? I have not seen convincing causal links and refutations of specific examples are becoming more common.

Also "1421" and "1491" are just two of many examples of how little is known about the pre-Columbian Americas. In languages Hittite now referred to as a proto-Indo-European language. Last word I got there is now linear A, B, and C giving clues to the spoken Minoan language, interesting but far from what I learned in school or even what is currently taught.

 

[Picaro]

Only big disagreement is that non-disease related die offs can actually lead to disease related die offs if body disposal cannot keep up with the deathrate.

I don't see where I disagreed with that; wars and epidemics and famines go hand in hand; most armies lost more men to disease than warfare, and same for the regions they moved through. If it weren't for that armies would never stop and just keep going forever in their marches.

That said, what do you think about this relatively new theory that irrigation works and agricultural activity in general can change the climate? I have not seen convincing causal links and refutations of specific examples are becoming more common.

Don't know. Deforestations seem to have some affect on micro-climates.No reason to assume they don't just because the 'global warming' types don't seem to know what they're doing. Absolutist positions on both 'sides' are more than likely wrong.

Also "1421" and "1491" are just two of many examples of how little is known about the pre-Columbian Americas. In languages Hittite now referred to as a proto-Indo-European language. Last word I got there is now linear A, B, and C giving clues to the spoken Minoan language, interesting but far from what I learned in school or even what is currently taught.

Barry Fell wrote a couple of books back in the 1970's on what he claimed were similarities of some native American languages and Middle eastern and North African Greek and Arab dialects; I thought he made a fair case, though other academics with different theories and hence with reasons to pan his work tried to discredit his theories. Haven't kept up with most of that stuff in a while, so I wouldn't doubt some of the new scholarship would be helpful. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Phoenicians or some Greeks made to the Americas in the B.C.s; it was normal for such merchants and traders to keep sources secret from other competitors and wouldn't be written down or mentioned in contemporary writings or on maps of the times.

 

[william the wie]

At least two Punic discoveries of America BC, at least two pre-Columbian Chinese discoveries of America and evidence of at least one Croatian discovery

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

The

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

The Dark Ages Were From the Fall of Rome to the Norman Conquest (476-1066)

Ruling class histwhorians try to cover up for their bosses' degenerate rule by taking that off the table as ever having any effect on history. The Spanish Influenza, 1918-1920, killed between 50 and 100 million people. Why didn't that destroy modern civilizations?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

.

New Age Sewage

And you are falling for Postmodern propaganda. Its unmanly degeneracy and cowardly escapism is leading us into a Second Dark Ages, which is why its gurus need to claim that the first one never happened.

 

[Picaro]

At least two Punic discoveries of America BC, at least two pre-Columbian Chinese discoveries of America and evidence of at least one Croatian discovery

Hadn't heard about the Croatian one, but wouldn't doubt it, as Ragusa was a maritime power. The Chinese one, like the Viking one, is irrelevant and didn't have any impact, while Columbus's did have a major across the board impact and is the most important one.