CDZ Moses Was a Real Historical Person

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Moses got a lot accomplished for a person that didn't exist.

If only he had a compass...weird... all that awesome stuff about creating the heavens and the earth, and God forgot to tell him about magnetism.

 

[Blackrook]

Moses got a lot accomplished for a person that didn't exist.

If only he had a compass...weird... all that awesome stuff about creating the heavens and the earth, and God forgot to tell him about magnetism.

The Hebrews were unworthy of entering the Promised Land because they were used to being slaves, used to not worrying about taking care of themselves because the Egyptians provided for them, and ungrateful for the freedom God and Moses had given them. That's why they wandered, they were not people who could build a new nation.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Moses got a lot accomplished for a person that didn't exist.

If only he had a compass...weird... all that awesome stuff about creating the heavens and the earth, and God forgot to tell him about magnetism.

The Hebrews were unworthy of entering the Promised Land because they were used to being slaves, used to not worrying about taking care of themselves because the Egyptians provided for them, and ungrateful for the freedom God and Moses had given them. That's why they wandered, they were not people who could build a new nation.

Neat... buuut... you don't really believe they wandered the desert for 40 years, right?

 

[JoeB131]

Moses got a lot accomplished for a person that didn't exist. Perhaps if he had existed, we'd have Twenty Commandments instead of only Ten. We'd have ten books in the Torah instead of just five. We'd have three Israels instead of just one.

Just because someone else did those things, doesn't mean much.

Or do you ever wonder why the books of the Torah contradict each other if they were all written by the same guy talking about himself in the third person.

 

[JoeB131]

The Hebrews were unworthy of entering the Promised Land because they were used to being slaves, used to not worrying about taking care of themselves because the Egyptians provided for them, and ungrateful for the freedom God and Moses had given them. That's why they wandered, they were not people who could build a new nation.

Except they weren't slaves... The problem they had was that the Egyptians wouldn't let them practice their religion, supposedly.

There is no evidence they ever lived in Egypt to start with. It actually all comes off with a group that looked at huge temple complexes like Karnak and then looked at their own Temple, which was barely the size of a barn, and got a case of Temple Envy.

 

[alang1216]

The Hebrews were unworthy of entering the Promised Land because they were used to being slaves, used to not worrying about taking care of themselves because the Egyptians provided for them, and ungrateful for the freedom God and Moses had given them. That's why they wandered, they were not people who could build a new nation.

Except they weren't slaves... The problem they had was that the Egyptians wouldn't let them practice their religion, supposedly.

There is no evidence they ever lived in Egypt to start with. It actually all comes off with a group that looked at huge temple complexes like Karnak and then looked at their own Temple, which was barely the size of a barn, and got a case of Temple Envy.

My view is that Moses was a compilation of many people whose legendary accomplishments got melded into a single person in the oral traditions. Not unlike the stories of Hercules.

It's also my view that the Israelites were not slaves, at least not all of them. They were desert nomads, likely very warlike and masters of light infantry and/or cavalry tactics. They would have been great mercenaries for the Egyptians and in fact there are Egyptian documents that place Israelites as guards on the Egypt's southern border. That one group left Egypt (got retired) and returned to nomadic life for awhile and then invaded Canaan seems logical to me.

 

[JimBowie1958]

My view is that Moses was a compilation of many people whose legendary accomplishments got melded into a single person in the oral traditions. Not unlike the stories of Hercules.
It's also my view that the Israelites were not slaves, at least not all of them. They were desert nomads, likely very warlike and masters of light infantry and/or cavalry tactics. They would have been great mercenaries for the Egyptians and in fact there are Egyptian documents that place Israelites as guards on the Egypt's southern border. That one group left Egypt (got retired) and returned to nomadic life for awhile and then invaded Canaan seems logical to me.

Can you think of an ancient historian who thought Hercules was anything other than a legend?

Can you present an ancient historian who thought Moses was a mere legend?

 

[alang1216]

My view is that Moses was a compilation of many people whose legendary accomplishments got melded into a single person in the oral traditions. Not unlike the stories of Hercules.
It's also my view that the Israelites were not slaves, at least not all of them. They were desert nomads, likely very warlike and masters of light infantry and/or cavalry tactics. They would have been great mercenaries for the Egyptians and in fact there are Egyptian documents that place Israelites as guards on the Egypt's southern border. That one group left Egypt (got retired) and returned to nomadic life for awhile and then invaded Canaan seems logical to me.

Can you think of an ancient historian who thought Hercules was anything other than a legend?

Can you present an ancient historian who thought Moses was a mere legend?

The point was not how people perceived these characters but how their legends were assembled. I think everyone believes George Washington was a real person but I'd bet more than a few believe he was so honest that he confessed to chopping down the cherry tree. And he is separated from us by a few centuries not a few millennia. Remember, what we know about both these figures was oral tradition that served both entertainment and educational purposes.

 

[JimBowie1958]

My view is that Moses was a compilation of many people whose legendary accomplishments got melded into a single person in the oral traditions. Not unlike the stories of Hercules.
It's also my view that the Israelites were not slaves, at least not all of them. They were desert nomads, likely very warlike and masters of light infantry and/or cavalry tactics. They would have been great mercenaries for the Egyptians and in fact there are Egyptian documents that place Israelites as guards on the Egypt's southern border. That one group left Egypt (got retired) and returned to nomadic life for awhile and then invaded Canaan seems logical to me.

Can you think of an ancient historian who thought Hercules was anything other than a legend?

Can you present an ancient historian who thought Moses was a mere legend?

The point was not how people perceived these characters but how their legends were assembled. I think everyone believes George Washington was a real person but I'd bet more than a few believe he was so honest that he confessed to chopping down the cherry tree. And he is separated from us by a few centuries not a few millennia. Remember, what we know about both these figures was oral tradition that served both entertainment and educational purposes.

But no contemporary sources regarded Moses as myth or a composition.

These people lived in that time, and we should give them some weight when we write up our modern wild ass guesses about what people did and did not believe at the time.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But no contemporary sources regarded Moses as myth or a composition.

Right,because that would be a silly exercise. What they do is reject the FIGURE of Moses as a myth.

 

[jwoodie]

Firstly you would have to demonstrate that any of those events actually happened. The idea that thousands upon thousands of people were “lost” in the desert for 40 years, within such a small geographic region, as is between Egypt, and Israel is fucking hilarious to the point of absurdity. It’s 265 miles between Cairo, and Jerusalem for fucks sake!!!
The same lack of evidence, and the absurdity of the claims made; make the Biblical account a cheeky fable. Nothing more...

"Lost?" LOL, so now you are a biblical literalist? How about "lived as nomads for 40 years?" Or would that upset your anti-religious rants?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

How about "lived as nomads for 40 years?"

How about, that's absurd, it was a desert....?

 

[Vastator]

Firstly you would have to demonstrate that any of those events actually happened. The idea that thousands upon thousands of people were “lost” in the desert for 40 years, within such a small geographic region, as is between Egypt, and Israel is fucking hilarious to the point of absurdity. It’s 265 miles between Cairo, and Jerusalem for fucks sake!!!
The same lack of evidence, and the absurdity of the claims made; make the Biblical account a cheeky fable. Nothing more...

"Lost?" LOL, so now you are a biblical literalist? How about "lived as nomads for 40 years?" Or would that upset your anti-religious rants?

I have no vested interest in contorting the story into a believable event. Because it never happened... Especially when one folds into the tale, the part about an advanced civilization pursuing them. In such a small area they’d have been found in short order. Not to mention the resources required to sustain such a large number of people, within that small area...
It’s fucking absurd.

 

[xyz]

There is a theory that Jews were actually followers of Akhenaten and left Egypt after he was no longer pharaoh and his religion was no longer accepted.

Did Akhenaten's religion influence early Judaism?

I think I might have seen a documentary about it, on the Discovery Channel or something like that.

Not a scholar on the matter, I don't know if it's true.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There is a theory that Jews were actually followers of Akhenaten and left Egypt after he was no longer pharaoh and his religion was no longer accepted.

Did Akhenaten's religion influence early Judaism?

I think I might have seen a documentary about it, on the Discovery Channel or something like that.

Not a scholar on the matter, I don't know if it's true.

While I think that is a plausible theory, personally I doubt it due to the Merneptah Stele, which describes Israel as a mature state of the sort that would be worthy of note when it was defeated by Egyptian armies. I think Israel went through a period of time, we call it the period of the Judges, in which the culture was nomadic and transitioned into a settled population. I suspect that this began in the late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age, and so predated Akhenaten by a century or two.

Why can it not be a case where Egypt was influenced by Israel and its nomadic champion Moses?

BTW, I am no scholar either, just an amateur dilettante like everything else outside of Relational Databases.

 

[harmonica]

so what?? there is a Moses...and??
he didn't perform miracles/etc

 

[JimBowie1958]

so what?? there is a Moses...and??
he didn't perform miracles/etc

How do you know he did not do things that we do not yet understand, like the Voodoo zombies? Voodoo has long been dismissed as just another superstition, until a biologist explored the topic and discovered that the zombies were real, but due to magic, but due to herbal toxins that acted on the nervous system.

Why could it not be a similar case with Moses 'miracles'?

Suppose he had knowledge of a previous similar disaster, and exploited it, led by voices in his head he identified as the Creator, to achieve the liberation of Israel?

 

[harmonica]

so what?? there is a Moses...and??
he didn't perform miracles/etc

How do you know he did not do things that we do not yet understand, like the Voodoo zombies? Voodoo has long been dismissed as just another superstition, until a biologist explored the topic and discovered that the zombies were real, but due to magic, but due to herbal toxins that acted on the nervous system.

Why could it not be a similar case with Moses 'miracles'?

Suppose he had knowledge of a previous similar disaster, and exploited it, led by voices in his head he identified as the Creator, to achieve the liberation of Israel?

there is no such thing as a miracle--that's how I know

 

[JimBowie1958]

there is no such thing as a miracle--that's how I know

So, you dont think the Big Bang happened?

 

[harmonica]

there is no such thing as a miracle--that's how I know

So, you dont think the Big Bang happened?

please people--look up the definitions before responding!!!
there is no god - so no miracles
mir·a·cle
/ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun

1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

di·vine1
/dəˈvīn

1. 1.
   of, from, or like God or a god