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New Book Entitled "Waco" Examines the 1993 Assault on the Branch Davidian Compound--Fresh Air NPR Program

gipper

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No need. The guy who bear sprayed officer Sidnick just got 80 months in prison.


By Koresh? I agree. But they were all stupid enough to follow him.
Yeah those dumb ass kids. They should have known better. Fuck them! They got what they deserved.
 

Skylar

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The author was on Fresh Air today plugging his book about the 1993 ATF assault on the Branch Davidian Compound. Here is the link:



The author (whose analysis I disagree with somewhat) does proffer some new perspectives into the siege I hadn't considered before. For one thing, he points out that the BD's were figuring this was going to be the "the end" so when most survived the initial assault, they were left with more questions than answers. I had never considered what a member of a suicide cult would do if, when the end of times battle was engaged, they survived.

While I don't think there is any charitable way to shade (as the author does) the BDs as being righteous--when the feds say, "put down your weapons, come out with your hands up" you do it--the author is right that there should have never been a siege, never been this standoff, and never been this type of assault. The ATF/FBI/US Marshalls could have arrested Koresh at any point in the days, weeks, and months leading up to the assault. This wasn't Bin Laden...he went to Wal*Mart like 4 days before the siege started.


Anyway, if you're interested in what the author has to say about the tragic assault that should have never taken place...give it a listen. Just one note, after this weekend, the episode will likely go behind a paywall so if you want to listen...do it soon.

When Prophecy Fails explores some of the ideas of what happens when prophecy doesn't work out. Not exactly doomsday cults, but a fascinating insight into the cult mentality.
 

Soupnazi630

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The Davidians were doing a lot more than that. They were selling semi-automatic rifles at gun shows along with conversion kits to make them fully auto. They were also letting Koresh have sex with children as young as 10.

Was the use of CS gas (really, just tear gas... which most of us who served in the military were exposed to and not a big deal.) a good idea? Not really ,the Davidians had gas masks.

But at the end of the day, the Davidians started the fires and killed themselves, not the government.
Wrong

They were selling guns which were legal. There were no such kits.

Koresh had sex with one twelve ywar old child not children plural and unfortunately Texas had an outdated law with a loophole allowing it.

The front door was not lost in the fire it fell off and was taken into evidence and THEN lost.

The Davidians DID set the fire and kill themselves but it was unnecessary to drive them to it. The initial raid was unjustified and fucked up by the ATF who fired first.
 

Soupnazi630

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When Prophecy Fails explores some of the ideas of what happens when prophecy doesn't work out. Not exactly doomsday cults, but a fascinating insight into the cult mentality.
The Branch Davidians were a cult and a fairly loopy one. They were not however a suicide or doomsday cult.
 

mikegriffith1

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While I don't think there is any charitable way to shade (as the author does) the BDs as being righteous--when the feds say, "put down your weapons, come out with your hands up" you do it--the author is right that there should have never been a siege, never been this standoff, and never been this type of assault. The ATF/FBI/US Marshalls could have arrested Koresh at any point in the days, weeks, and months leading up to the assault. This wasn't Bin Laden...he went to Wal*Mart like 4 days before the siege started.

The author is right on. The assault on the Waco compound was a criminal act, an egregiously excessive use of force. A number of children were killed in the assault. The feds lamely claimed that the children did not come out when ordered, ignoring the fact that the feds fired CS tear gas into the building. In the Army, I saw CS gas bring grown men to their knees choking and crying. It was ludicrous to expect that children would be able to come out after being gassed with CS gas.

Yes, granted, the adult BDs were no angels, but that was no excuse for what the feds did.
 

gipper

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The author is right on. The assault on the Waco compound was a criminal act, an egregiously excessive use of force. A number of children were killed in the assault. The feds lamely claimed that the children did not come out when ordered, ignoring the fact that the feds fired CS tear gas into the building. In the Army, I saw CS gas bring grown men to their knees choking and crying. It was ludicrous to expect that children would be able to come out after being gassed with CS gas.

Yes, granted, the adult BDs were no angels, but that was no excuse for what the feds did.

Candycane is a D cultist, so naturally she’s trying to protect the Clinton administration. If Trump committed this heinous and treasonous act, she’d be in agreement.

Partisans of the duopoly can’t think.
 

JoeB131

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Wrong

They were selling guns which were legal. There were no such kits.

Koresh had sex with one twelve ywar old child not children plural and unfortunately Texas had an outdated law with a loophole allowing it.

No, actually, it doesn't. Age of Consent in Texas is 17, but you can marry a 14 year old if her parents consent. Since Koresh was already married to the 12 year old's sister, (Ick!) he really didn't have a leg to stand on.

The author is right on. The assault on the Waco compound was a criminal act, an egregiously excessive use of force. A number of children were killed in the assault. The feds lamely claimed that the children did not come out when ordered, ignoring the fact that the feds fired CS tear gas into the building. In the Army, I saw CS gas bring grown men to their knees choking and crying. It was ludicrous to expect that children would be able to come out after being gassed with CS gas.

So when you were in the Army, you were a complete fucking pussy? Not that I ever looked forward to NBC training day, but let's get real, it was CS. It wasn't going to kill you.

The problem was the PARENTS of these children refused to come out when ordered, and then burned down the building when the Feds came in after them.

Now, Reno and the FBI should have just waited them out. Eventually, they'd have run out of food. I think some of the other things they did were mistakes, such as playing loud music to deprive them of sleep.

But at the end of the day

Koresh was illegally selling guns
Koresh chose to fire at ATF agents serving a lawful warrant
Koresh decided that he would rather commit mass suicide than do his time in jail.
 

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No, actually, it doesn't. Age of Consent in Texas is 17, but you can marry a 14 year old if her parents consent. Since Koresh was already married to the 12 year old's sister, (Ick!) he really didn't have a leg to stand on.



So when you were in the Army, you were a complete fucking pussy? Not that I ever looked forward to NBC training day, but let's get real, it was CS. It wasn't going to kill you.

The problem was the PARENTS of these children refused to come out when ordered, and then burned down the building when the Feds came in after them.

Now, Reno and the FBI should have just waited them out. Eventually, they'd have run out of food. I think some of the other things they did were mistakes, such as playing loud music to deprive them of sleep.

But at the end of the day

Koresh was illegally selling guns
Koresh chose to fire at ATF agents serving a lawful warrant
Koresh decided that he would rather commit mass suicide than do his time in jail.
The legal authorities of texas disagreed They knew about his marriage and their understanding of the law was better than yours.

Koresh was not illegally selling guns he was a legal dealer.

They had a legal warrant but they fired first making the initial actions of the davidians self defense.
 

JoeB131

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The legal authorities of texas disagreed They knew about his marriage and their understanding of the law was better than yours.

That's just shows how lax most Child Protective Services are. The ones that claim the kid was fine when his corpse was stuffed in a couch.


Dr. Perry said that though the children seemed highly protective of the cult's secrets, "Over the course of two months, the kids became increasingly open about 11- and 12-year-old girls being David's wives." He said it was also clear in these conversations that the status of "wife" included having sex with Mr. Koresh. Under Texas law, sex by an adult with girls under the age of 17 is statutory rape, a felony.



Koresh was not illegally selling guns he was a legal dealer.
Except the ATF's job is to regulate legal dealers, and they had a problem with him. And given how truly LAX the ATF is in dealing with dealers, he had to be doing some pretty shady shit.

Go back to my previous post, he had converted dozens of weapons to full automatic.

They had a legal warrant but they fired first making the initial actions of the davidians self defense.

Except there's no evidence the ATF Fired first. There were in fact, three investigations of the incident, and all of them concluded the Davidians shot first.
 

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That's just shows how lax most Child Protective Services are. The ones that claim the kid was fine when his corpse was stuffed in a couch.


Dr. Perry said that though the children seemed highly protective of the cult's secrets, "Over the course of two months, the kids became increasingly open about 11- and 12-year-old girls being David's wives." He said it was also clear in these conversations that the status of "wife" included having sex with Mr. Koresh. Under Texas law, sex by an adult with girls under the age of 17 is statutory rape, a felony.




Except the ATF's job is to regulate legal dealers, and they had a problem with him. And given how truly LAX the ATF is in dealing with dealers, he had to be doing some pretty shady shit.

Go back to my previous post, he had converted dozens of weapons to full automatic.



Except there's no evidence the ATF Fired first. There were in fact, three investigations of the incident, and all of them concluded the Davidians shot first.
None of those accusations of chiild abuse are credible and none of them are a federal issue

You are quite wrong. Dealers are regulated by the state. There is no evidence of them converting weapons.


Yes there is significant evidence that the ATF fired first including the door which was lost by the FBI. The government was covering up it;s own incompetance.
 

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None of those accusations of chiild abuse are credible and none of them are a federal issue

Actually, they were very credible and documented. Now, you might have a case that they weren't the ATF's business, but they were offered as a reason why a simple, "Come down to our office on Tuesday" wasn't an option with these nuts.

You are quite wrong. Dealers are regulated by the state. There is no evidence of them converting weapons.

Except converted weapons were recovered, so, no, that's just wrong. Also, the ATF regulates dealers.

Yes there is significant evidence that the ATF fired first including the door which was lost by the FBI. The government was covering up it;s own incompetance.
Uh, the whole fucking building burned down... the door wasn't "lost". it was probably burned.

Not that such a door would be indictive because you wouldn't know when bullets hit it during a several hour firefight followed by another firefight a month later.
 

Soupnazi630

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Actually, they were very credible and documented. Now, you might have a case that they weren't the ATF's business, but they were offered as a reason why a simple, "Come down to our office on Tuesday" wasn't an option with these nuts.



Except converted weapons were recovered, so, no, that's just wrong. Also, the ATF regulates dealers.


Uh, the whole fucking building burned down... the door wasn't "lost". it was probably burned.

Not that such a door would be indictive because you wouldn't know when bullets hit it during a several hour firefight followed by another firefight a month later.
No they were not well documented they were runmors and examined after the fact,

No such weapons were recovered.

the door did not burn down you ignorant fool it was taken into evidence and THEN LOST
 

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No they were not well documented they were runmors and examined after the fact,

No such weapons were recovered.

the door did not burn down you ignorant fool it was taken into evidence and THEN LOST
You live in your own fantasy world, don't you? The evidence collected at Waco was collected by the Texas Rangers, not the FBI, and the left hand door was introduced at trial.





Texas Rangers testified that there appeared to be bullet holes in the half set of doors that were presented as evidence Friday.

They said that the doors' battered condition could have resulted from being run over by tanks used to lob tear gas into the compound by federal agents April 19.
 

Soupnazi630

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You live in your own fantasy world, don't you? The evidence collected at Waco was collected by the Texas Rangers, not the FBI, and the left hand door was introduced at trial.





Texas Rangers testified that there appeared to be bullet holes in the half set of doors that were presented as evidence Friday.

They said that the doors' battered condition could have resulted from being run over by tanks used to lob tear gas into the compound by federal agents April 19.

You deliberately skpped the part that the FBI took the other half and it has never been seen again.

Funny how you claim to be informed yet all this time you claimed it was destroyed in the fire.

As the article states they recovered bic lighters but lost a door with bullet holes.

That was a massive piece of evidence as BOTH sides stated that the first shots went through the door. It would have shown whether those shots came from inside or outside yet it was lost.;


You just defeated yourself
 

JoeB131

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You deliberately skpped the part that the FBI took the other half and it has never been seen again.
Actually, all we know is that it disappeared. We don't know who lost it, or if it was just discarded with the rest of the debris.

That was a massive piece of evidence as BOTH sides stated that the first shots went through the door. It would have shown whether those shots came from inside or outside yet it was lost.;

Except not really. Even if the Davidians shot first, they wouldn't have shot through a closed door. They'd have shot out of windows.

This was litigated in the trial of the Davidians, and a lot of them were found guilty.
 

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Actually, all we know is that it disappeared. We don't know who lost it, or if it was just discarded with the rest of the debris.



Except not really. Even if the Davidians shot first, they wouldn't have shot through a closed door. They'd have shot out of windows.

This was litigated in the trial of the Davidians, and a lot of them were found guilty.
Wrong we know the FBI had it and lost it.

Your statement about the dsvidians shooting through a door is circumstantial evidence that the ATF shot first.

No it was not litigated. None of this had anythiing to do with their individual trials.
 

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Uh, guy, they didn't recover anything because they never got into the building to conduct their search.

Are you fucking stupid?

After the building burned down, they recovered a lot of things... including.


The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers


21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
We are talking about junk WW2 Brit surplus. The stuff wasn't even considered to be functionable. I submit that there was no such inventory recovered after the raid..
 

JoeB131

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Wrong we know the FBI had it and lost it.
So they said to the rangers, 'Hey, we'll take this door, you take the other one."

Seems a lot more likely, that after the fire and the tanks running over shit, the right door was in such bad shape that it had no evidentary value, so no one bothered to collect it after the rest of the debris was taking off to a landfill.

We are talking about junk WW2 Brit surplus. The stuff wasn't even considered to be functionable. I submit that there was no such inventory recovered after the raid..
you can submit that, it just isn't true.
 

Soupnazi630

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So they said to the rangers, 'Hey, we'll take this door, you take the other one."

Seems a lot more likely, that after the fire and the tanks running over shit, the right door was in such bad shape that it had no evidentary value, so no one bothered to collect it after the rest of the debris was taking off to a landfill.


you can submit that, it just isn't true.
Wrong moron

More likely they got rid of inrminating evidence.

you truly are a gullible sap
 

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