New Book Entitled "Waco" Examines the 1993 Assault on the Branch Davidian Compound--Fresh Air NPR Program

[JoeB131]

Wrong moron

More likely they got rid of inrminating evidence.

"Hey, Bob, here's this mangled door with dozens of bullet holes in it, even though we can't tell if the bullet holes got there on February 28th during the initial shootout or on April 19th during the shootout right before these freaks burned themselves to death!"

"Well, let's leave the left hand door but steal the right hand door, right under the noses of all these Texas Rangers who are actually collecting evidence for the state trial for the survivors. It has no evidentiary value, but I'm sure conspiracy freaks will be talking about it for the next 30 years!"

Meanwhile, on Planet Sane.

Waco siege - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Criminal Case

After a jury trial lasting nearly two months, the jury acquitted four of the Branch Davidians on all charges. Additionally, the jury acquitted all of the Branch Davidians on the murder-related charges but convicted five of them on lesser charges, including aiding and abetting the voluntary manslaughter of federal agents.[96] Eight Branch Davidians were convicted on firearms charges.

The convicted Branch Davidians, who received sentences of up to 40 years,[97] were:

• Kevin A. Whitecliff – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Jaime Castillo – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Paul Gordon Fatta – convicted of conspiracy to possess machine guns and aiding Branch Davidian leader David Koresh in possessing machine guns.
• Renos Lenny Avraam (British national) – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Graeme Leonard Craddock (Australian national) – convicted of possessing a grenade and using or possessing a firearm during a crime.
• Brad Eugene Branch – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Livingstone Fagan (British national) – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Ruth Riddle (Canadian national) – convicted of using or carrying a weapon during a crime.
• Kathryn Schroeder – sentenced to three years after pleading guilty to a reduced charge of forcibly resisting arrest.

Civil Case

Several of the surviving Branch Davidians, as well as more than a hundred family members of those who had died or were injured in the confrontation, brought civil suits against the United States government, numerous federal officials, the former governor of Texas Ann Richards, and members of the Texas Army National Guard. They sought monetary damages under the Federal Tort Claims Act, civil rights statutes, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, and Texas state law. The bulk of these claims were dismissed because they were insufficient as a matter of law or because the plaintiffs could advance no material evidence in support of them.

The court, after a month-long trial, rejected the Branch Davidians' case. The court found that, on February 28, 1993, the Branch Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants.[103] ATF agents returned gunfire to the building, the court ruled, to protect themselves and other agents from death or serious bodily harm. The court found that the government's planning of the siege—i.e., the decisions to use tear gas against the Branch Davidians; to insert the tear gas using military vehicles and to omit specific planning for the possibility that a fire would erupt—was a discretionary function for which the government could not be sued. The court also found that the use of tear gas was not negligent. Further, even if the United States government were negligent by causing damage to the buildings before the fires broke out, thus either blocking escape routes or enabling the fires to spread faster, that negligence did not legally cause the plaintiffs' injuries because the Branch Davidians started the fires.

Danforth Investigation

In September 1999, Attorney General Reno appointed former U.S. Senator John C. Danforth as Special Counsel to investigate the matter. In particular, the Special Counsel was directed to investigate charges that government agents started or spread the fire at the Mount Carmel complex, directed gunfire at the Branch Davidians, and unlawfully employed the armed forces of the United States. A yearlong investigation ensued, during which the Office of the Special Counsel interviewed 1,001 witnesses, reviewed over 2.3 million pages of documents, and examined thousands of pounds of physical evidence. In the "Final report to the Deputy Attorney General concerning the 1993 confrontation at the Mt. Carmel Complex, Waco Texas" of November 8, 2000, Special Counsel Danforth concluded that the allegations were meritless.

Now, did the ATF and FBI make a lot of mistakes? You betcha. But at the end of the day, it was David Koresh who decided to have a shoot out with the FBI, and David Koresh who decided that mass suicide was better than what they do to Chomos in the big house.

 

[Soupnazi630]

"Hey, Bob, here's this mangled door with dozens of bullet holes in it, even though we can't tell if the bullet holes got there on February 28th during the initial shootout or on April 19th during the shootout right before these freaks burned themselves to death!"

"Well, let's leave the left hand door but steal the right hand door, right under the noses of all these Texas Rangers who are actually collecting evidence for the state trial for the survivors. It has no evidentiary value, but I'm sure conspiracy freaks will be talking about it for the next 30 years!"

Meanwhile, on Planet Sane.

Waco siege - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Criminal Case

After a jury trial lasting nearly two months, the jury acquitted four of the Branch Davidians on all charges. Additionally, the jury acquitted all of the Branch Davidians on the murder-related charges but convicted five of them on lesser charges, including aiding and abetting the voluntary manslaughter of federal agents.[96] Eight Branch Davidians were convicted on firearms charges.

The convicted Branch Davidians, who received sentences of up to 40 years,[97] were:

• Kevin A. Whitecliff – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Jaime Castillo – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Paul Gordon Fatta – convicted of conspiracy to possess machine guns and aiding Branch Davidian leader David Koresh in possessing machine guns.
• Renos Lenny Avraam (British national) – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Graeme Leonard Craddock (Australian national) – convicted of possessing a grenade and using or possessing a firearm during a crime.
• Brad Eugene Branch – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Livingstone Fagan (British national) – convicted of voluntary manslaughter and using a firearm during a crime.
• Ruth Riddle (Canadian national) – convicted of using or carrying a weapon during a crime.
• Kathryn Schroeder – sentenced to three years after pleading guilty to a reduced charge of forcibly resisting arrest.

Civil Case

Several of the surviving Branch Davidians, as well as more than a hundred family members of those who had died or were injured in the confrontation, brought civil suits against the United States government, numerous federal officials, the former governor of Texas Ann Richards, and members of the Texas Army National Guard. They sought monetary damages under the Federal Tort Claims Act, civil rights statutes, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, and Texas state law. The bulk of these claims were dismissed because they were insufficient as a matter of law or because the plaintiffs could advance no material evidence in support of them.

The court, after a month-long trial, rejected the Branch Davidians' case. The court found that, on February 28, 1993, the Branch Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants.[103] ATF agents returned gunfire to the building, the court ruled, to protect themselves and other agents from death or serious bodily harm. The court found that the government's planning of the siege—i.e., the decisions to use tear gas against the Branch Davidians; to insert the tear gas using military vehicles and to omit specific planning for the possibility that a fire would erupt—was a discretionary function for which the government could not be sued. The court also found that the use of tear gas was not negligent. Further, even if the United States government were negligent by causing damage to the buildings before the fires broke out, thus either blocking escape routes or enabling the fires to spread faster, that negligence did not legally cause the plaintiffs' injuries because the Branch Davidians started the fires.

Danforth Investigation

In September 1999, Attorney General Reno appointed former U.S. Senator John C. Danforth as Special Counsel to investigate the matter. In particular, the Special Counsel was directed to investigate charges that government Thagents started or spread the fire at the Mount Carmel complex, directed gunfire at the Branch Davidians, and unlawfully employed the armed forces of the United States. A yearlong investigation ensued, during which the Office of the Special Counsel interviewed 1,001 witnesses, reviewed over 2.3 million pages of documents, and examined thousands of pounds of physical evidence. In the "Final report to the Deputy Attorney General concerning the 1993 confrontation at the Mt. Carmel Complex, Waco Texas" of November 8, 2000, Special Counsel Danforth concluded that the allegations were meritless.

Now, did the ATF and FBI make a lot of mistakes? You betcha. But at the end of the day, it was David Koresh who decided to have a shoot out with the FBI, and David Koresh who decided that mass suicide was better than what they do to Chomos in the big house.

None of that shit deals with the door you idiot.

There was no april 19th shootout

 

[martybegan]

No need. The guy who bear sprayed officer Sidnick just got 80 months in prison.


By Koresh? I agree. But they were all stupid enough to follow him.

It was pepper spray, and it was for spraying officers in general, not Sidnick.

Which is crazy considering some NY lawyers got 1 year for firebombing a fucking Police SUV and giving more firebombs to other protesters.

 

[JoeB131]

None of that shit deals with the door you idiot.

There was no april 19th shootout

Uh, what? Did you miss the part where they try to take the compound and the FBI and Davidians exchanged rounds for six hours?

the point was, this issue was litigated in court multiple times, and the same conclusion was made.

The Davidians offed themselves and their kids, and the gene pool is better off for it.

Which is crazy considering some NY lawyers got 1 year for firebombing a fucking Police SUV and giving more firebombs to other protesters.

Naw, what's crazy it's been 30 years since thug cops nearly beat Rodney King to death and we are still talking about this shit.

Police SUV's can be replaced. Officer Sidnik's life cannot.

 

[martybegan]

Uh, what? Did you miss the part where they try to take the compound and the FBI and Davidians exchanged rounds for six hours?

the point was, this issue was litigated in court multiple times, and the same conclusion was made.

The Davidians offed themselves and their kids, and the gene pool is better off for it.


Naw, what's crazy it's been 30 years since thug cops nearly beat Rodney King to death and we are still talking about this shit.

Police SUV's can be replaced. Officer Sidnik's life cannot.

Because we are dealing with people, not terminators we can program to be perfect.

The only reason you give a rats ass about Sidnick is because it helps your politics you cheap dime store hack.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Uh, what? Did you miss the part where they try to take the compound and the FBI and Davidians exchanged rounds for six hours?

the point was, this issue was litigated in court multiple times, and the same conclusion was made.

The Davidians offed themselves and their kids, and the gene pool is better off for it.


Naw, what's crazy it's been 30 years since thug cops nearly beat Rodney King to death and we are still talking about this shit.

Police SUV's can be replaced. Officer Sidnik's life cannot.

There was no such second fire fight

I never denied they offed themselves

None of that addresses the governments actions

 

[JoeB131]

Because we are dealing with people, not terminators we can program to be perfect.

Uh, the problem is these people are imperfect when they are hired.

The only reason you give a rats ass about Sidnick is because it helps your politics you cheap dime store hack.

Uh, I'm concerned that a President unleashed an angry mob to overthrow an election. That's how Democracies die.

 

[martybegan]

Uh, the problem is these people are imperfect when they are hired.


Uh, I'm concerned that a President unleashed an angry mob to overthrow an election. That's how Democracies die.

And?

He didn't do that at all.

All governments die when the bureaucrats override the officials placed in power by whatever mechanism is indigenous to the government. The Confucian scholars killed the Mings, and the federal bureaucracy will kill our Republic.

With help from blue State governments that decide women can have penises, but can't have ICE vehicles.

 

[JoeB131]

And?

He didn't do that at all.

All governments die when the bureaucrats override the officials placed in power by whatever mechanism is indigenous to the government. The Confucian scholars killed the Mings, and the federal bureaucracy will kill our Republic.

Actually, what killed the Mings were the Manchu's invaded, and then put those Confucian scholars right back in charge because they knew how to run things.

So in your bizarro world, the maniac screaming about a "stolen election" had nothing to do with the angry crowd of inbred rednecks who stormed the Capitol when it was certifying the election. Interesting.

 

[martybegan]

Actually, what killed the Mings were the Manchu's invaded, and then put those Confucian scholars right back in charge because they knew how to run things.

So in your bizarro world, the maniac screaming about a "stolen election" had nothing to do with the angry crowd of inbred rednecks who stormed the Capitol when it was certifying the election. Interesting.

Read 1571, a year of no significance.

Educate yourself.

Did he tell them to peacefully protest or not?

 

[JoeB131]

Read 1571, a year of no significance.

Educate yourself.

Degree in history...

The Ming fell because they were defeated by the Qing (Manchus). Which unfortunately, is typical of Chinese history. Dynasties fall, new dynasties replace them. The Communists are just another dynasty.

Did he tell them to peacefully protest or not?

That's like a mobster saying "Nice store, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

The entire context of the speech riled them up.

 

[martybegan]

Degree in history...

The Ming fell because they were defeated by the Qing (Manchus). Which unfortunately, is typical of Chinese history. Dynasties fall, new dynasties replace them. The Communists are just another dynasty.


That's like a mobster saying "Nice store, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

The entire context of the speech riled them up.

Why they were defeated is the question I am asking, and my answer is the conflict between the ruler and his Confucian bureaucracy.

Not even close. He specifically said peacefully, something you idiots ignore.

 

[JoeB131]

Why they were defeated is the question I am asking, and my answer is the conflict between the ruler and his Confucian bureaucracy.

Well, it's a stupid question, and kind of ignorant of Chinese history. The fact was, the Confucian bureaucracy is why the Manchus were able to run the country so effectively being barely literate barbarians before they took over.

Not even close. He specifically said peacefully, something you idiots ignore.

They wouldn't have been there at all if he hadn't been ranting about a stolen election for months. That he slipped the word "peacefully" in there doesn't matter.

 

[martybegan]

Well, it's a stupid question, and kind of ignorant of Chinese history. The fact was, the Confucian bureaucracy is why the Manchus were able to run the country so effectively being barely literate barbarians before they took over.


They wouldn't have been there at all if he hadn't been ranting about a stolen election for months. That he slipped the word "peacefully" in there doesn't matter.

And it made the Ming Emperors feel like they didn't need to do anything, leading to the Ming's downfall.

It does matter, you just ignore it.

 

[JoeB131]

And it made the Ming Emperors feel like they didn't need to do anything, leading to the Ming's downfall.

Or they just had a string of bad rulers... nothing to do with the Bureaucracy. Again, the first thing the Manchu did when they took over was give all those bureaucrats their jobs back.

 

[martybegan]

Or they just had a string of bad rulers... nothing to do with the Bureaucracy. Again, the first thing the Manchu did when they took over was give all those bureaucrats their jobs back.

The ones they didn't execute.