Neo-Cons, Answer Me This...

[JakeStarkey]

Sinatra is trying to pass off the Bush errors onto BHO's administration.

He is not telling you that the neo-cons are in the GOP, not the Democratic Party.

You are lying, Sinatra.

 

[MarcATL]

Sinatra...you're just taking ONE segment of the definition and putting it out of context.

Let me try to help you here...What party do/did the Kristols belong to?

Remember: They are the ones who the definition (as it is known today) is based on.

 

[saveliberty]

Ohhhh...NOW they want to pick and choose and ACT like they DIDN'T approve and support the Bush Regime over most of the last decade.

They RE-ELECTED that destructive summamabatch for goodness sake.

Now they act as if they don't know what happened and didn't support it as it happened.

Case closed.

Damned "Born Again Fiscally-Responsible."

*SMH*
.. ..

Enjoy your Bush bashing soapbox for the next three years. I'm designing an all-weather Obama soapbox for 2013.

That's it, thaaat's it...NOW you're getting closer to accepting the DAMAGE that Herr Bush has done to this country.

I pray that you will have no reason to be on a soapbox in 2013, and not for partisan reasons either. America can't take any more of what its had for the bulk of the last decade.

If I were you, I'd be praying for that too.

Actually I have no intention of making such a box. Dwelling on blame does nothing in moving us forward. Pouring your anger out builds no future. If you want to use history to avoid errors, fine, but that is not your intention here.

 

[Sinatra]

They are not even aware Kristol voted for Hubert Humphrey for president, are they?

Yes, the left wing Democrat candidate for president in 1968 and the founder of the Minnesota Farmer Labor Party.

Humphrey had a tradition of wishing to expand federal power and influence both at home and abroad, and so Kristol favored his leanings as they conformed to the already established neoconservative movement that continued to permeate both political parties.

The neocons tend to travel where the power resides, and then influence it from within - regardless of party affilition.

Nixon had neocons, as did Carter. So too did Reagan, though they later professed upset over Reagan's smaller government bent and lukewarm internationalism. Bush Sr. was more in line with neoconservatism, as was Clinton. The Bush administration gave much safe harbor to the neocon influence, and now so too does the Obama administration.

Please expand you too limited understanding of this important socio-political philosopy that has permeated our nation's politics for decades - long before Kristol's public declarations of what neoconservatism was in the 1970's.

Perhaps the single most "neocon" president in our history was none other than FDR...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your own definition (much that was already provided in this thread) shows how neoconservatism is based in big government liberalism/socialism that links back to FDR, JFK, LBJ etc. Thus, neoconservatism is an abomination of traditional American conservatism, as well as traditional American liberalism (which are far more closely linked to each other than to neoconservatism)

And at present, neoconservatism is ruling the day under the Obama White House. A very aggressive big government policy joined with an aggressive overseas military influence operation.

Obama is very much a neoconservative under the confines of the very definition you yourself have provided.
_____

edit: DEFINITION

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.[1][2][3] Consequently the term is chiefly applicable to certain Americans and their strong supporters. In economics, unlike traditionalist conservatives, neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a welfare state; and, while rhetorically supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes.[4]

The term neoconservative was used at one time as a criticism against proponents of American modern liberalism who had "moved to the right".[5][6] Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist, coined the current sense of the term neoconservative in a 1973 Dissent magazine article concerning welfare policy.[7] According to E. J. Dionne, the nascent neoconservatives were driven by "the notion that liberalism" had failed and "no longer knew what it was talking about."[8] The term "neoconservative" was the subject of increased media coverage during the presidency of George W. Bush.[9][10] with particular focus on a perceived neoconservative influence on American foreign policy, as part of the Bush Doctrine.[11]

The first major neoconservative to embrace the term, Irving Kristol, was considered a founder of the neoconservative movement. Kristol wrote of his neoconservative views in the 1979 article "Confessions of a True, Self-Confessed 'Neoconservative.'"[5] His ideas have been influential since the 1950s, when he co-founded and edited Encounter magazine.[12] Another source was Norman Podhoretz, editor of Commentary magazine from 1960 to 1995. By 1982 Podhoretz was calling himself a neoconservative, in a New York Times Magazine article titled "The Neoconservative Anguish over Reagan's Foreign Policy".[13][14] Kristol's son, William Kristol, founded the neoconservative Project for the New American Century.

Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/QUOTE]

This wikipedia article (sigh) posits "neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a welfare state; and, while rhetorically supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes". Yes, and they are now in the GOP. Thanks for clearing that up. Sinatra is engaged in revision, mistaking neo-conservatism with traditional American internationalism and multi-treaty positioning. No, FDR was not neo-conservative, neither was Truman, Eisenhowser, Kennedy, Johnson, or Nixon. Only in the administration of Bush the Younger did they gain the ability to direct definitive American overseas preventive intervention on the scale of Iraq, and the blowback blew them out of office.

Sinatra, Bush is responsible for America's mistakes this decade: nothing you say will change that.

 

[Sinatra]

Oh yes - no doubt the Big Goverment neocons invaded the GOP.

That has less to do with conservatism though and far more to do with leftist big government socialism- which is the very point others have attempted to make in this thread but that you appear unable to comprehend.

And it is very much BOTH parties the neocons positioned themselves within.

Simply recall the Senate vote in support of the Iraq War - which included among that number the current Vice President and the current Secretary of State. And who is our current Secretary of Defense? Why it's the same as the one under the Bush adminstration.

And let us not forget that the current president is sending 30000 more troops to Afghanistan.

Big government proponents who also support a policy of international military interventionism.

The neocons remain alive and well within the Obama White House...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your analysis is weak and in error.

The votes in the Senate were based on bad military analysis, and almost all Senate Dems have repudiated those votes. And, guess who never voted for those force resolutions: yes, that's right, President (then Senate) Obama.

The 30,000 troops to Afghanistan are being sent to beat those who attacked us, Al Quada and their Taliban helpers, while troops are being withdrawn from Iraq, the folks who did not attack us.

Sorry, Sinatra, you are so obviously wrong.

 

[Sinatra]

Your analysis is weak and in error.

The votes in the Senate were based on bad military analysis, and almost all Senate Dems have repudiated those votes. And, guess who never voted for those force resolutions: yes, that's right, President (then Senate) Obama.

The 30,000 troops to Afghanistan are being sent to beat those who attacked us, Al Quada and their Taliban helpers, while troops are being withdrawn from Iraq, the folks who did not attack us.

Sorry, Sinatra, you are so obviously wrong.

____

Obama NEVER voted as a US Senator against the Iraq war resolution.

You fail to even know the quite current history of our current president!

Good Lord man!!!!

 

[JakeStarkey]

He never voted for it, bub. It is amazing how ignorant you are about American history. But keep entertaining the board, please. You even sound like a neo-con.

Oh, enlarging the print only emphasizes that you know you are sliding down the slippery slope of defeat. Dig those cleats in. Oh, that's right: the neo-cons stole them!

 

[Sinatra]

You are caught by your own ignorance - you indicated Obama was a US Senator who did not vote in favor of the Iraq war resolution...
____

"The votes in the Senate were based on bad military analysis, and almost all Senate Dems have repudiated those votes. And, guess who never voted for those force resolutions: yes, that's right, President (then Senate) Obama."
____

Problem is, Obama was not a United States Senator until 2004 - the Iraq war vote took place in 2002.

As far as "repudiating those votes" - that is just plain spineless politics, nothing to do with neocons, or conservatives, or liberals. The Dems saw approval for the war going down, and did an about-face on their previous support.

I still can't believe you implied Obama voted as a U.S. Senator against the war in Iraq. He wasn't even able to vote "present"!!!

He never voted for it, bub. It is amazing how ignorant you are about American history. But keep entertaining the board, please. You even sound like a neo-con.

Oh, enlarging the print only emphasizes that you know you are sliding down the slippery slope of defeat. Dig those cleats in. Oh, that's right: the neo-cons stole them!

 

[Sinatra]

Obama, Neocon In Chief

From extending and deepening the war in Afghanistan, to suppressing evidence of rampant and widespread abuse and torture of prisoners under Bush, to thuggishly threatening the British with intelligence cut-off if they reveal the brutal torture inflicted on Binyam Mohamed, Obama now has new cheer-leaders: Bill Kristol, Michael Goldfarb and Max Boot.


Obama, Neocon In Chief - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

 

[Sinatra]

More leftists discover Obama is a Neocon


I have been saying for a long time that Obama is a Neocon. Now, leftists are discovering this too.



More leftists discover Obama is a Neocon || kuro5hin.org

 

[JakeStarkey]

See, you exploited the loop I deliberately gave you. This is a learning experience, Sinatra, and I am glad you stepped up. This is the first time that you have. BHO was an Illinois politician who said he would not have voted for the legislation, and opposed the war when in the Senate.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You need to provide objective, critical sources, not mere partisan hackery.

No, Obama is not a neo-con, and nothing you have given us demonstrate anything differently,

 

[Sinatra]

See, you exploited the loop I deliberately gave you. This is a learning experience, Sinatra, and I am glad you stepped up. This is the first time that you have. BHO was an Illinois politician who said he would not have voted for the legislation, and opposed the war when in the Senate.

___

Yes - he was a little state senator - he never HAD to vote on the war in Iraq. Hell, he hardly voted as a state senator.

What we do know is that Obama is now being seen as a neocon himself.

You helped elect a neocon!!!!

You did not know Obama's own history - you know almost nothing regarding neoconservatism.

You are amusing though!!

In a piano playing chicken kind of way...

___


Are neocons going to Obama's camp?


May 6th, 2007 by SouthernBelle82
Obama seems to be getting a lot of support from republicans and that generally doesn't bother me since a lot of people supported Kerry who were republicans unhappy with Bush and that happens all the time. What is bothering me is that neocons seems to be going to Obama's camp including a cofounder of the PNAC group. Has anybody heard about this? Matthew Dowd is now jumping on Obama's band wagon and he was a chief strategist of Bush's 2004 campaign and Robert Kagan is the PNAC member who likes Obama and what he has been saying. I just am getting iffy vibes and I think Obama is trying to please too many people instead of standing up for his own values and that is causing all these people to come to Obama's camp from Bush's. Could they be getting ready to get Obama to be the PNAC's new Bush to continue what they started with Iran and Syria? Obama has said all options are on the table with Iran. I'm just getting really nervous about this and it's making me uncomfortable and I want to know what you guys think


http://www.mikegravel.us/node/919

 

[Sinatra]

Neocons for Obama?

George Packer from the New Yorker magazine reports on an email he got from Ken Adelman today indicating that the neo-con is planning on voting for Sen. Barack Obama,


Neocons for Obama? - Political Punch

 

[Sinatra]

+

They are not even aware Kristol voted for Hubert Humphrey for president, are they?

Yes, the left wing Democrat candidate for president in 1968 and the founder of the Minnesota Farmer Labor Party.

Humphrey had a tradition of wishing to expand federal power and influence both at home and abroad, and so Kristol favored his leanings as they conformed to the already established neoconservative movement that continued to permeate both political parties.

The neocons tend to travel where the power resides, and then influence it from within - regardless of party affilition.

Nixon had neocons, as did Carter. So too did Reagan, though they later professed upset over Reagan's smaller government bent and lukewarm internationalism. Bush Sr. was more in line with neoconservatism, as was Clinton. The Bush administration gave much safe harbor to the neocon influence, and now so too does the Obama administration.

Please expand you too limited understanding of this important socio-political philosopy that has permeated our nation's politics for decades - long before Kristol's public declarations of what neoconservatism was in the 1970's.

Perhaps the single most "neocon" president in our history was none other than FDR...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sinatra, you try that thesis in any university or college in the country, whether lib or con, you will get a failing grade. See, reactionary wingnut lying does not work here, either. Obama as neo-con: how funny! You are parroting Michael Leeden in last month's National Review, who confuses (deliberately?) the liberal democracy and international multi-lateralism of Obama with the neo-con preventive interventionism of Bush. Won't work.

 

[Rozman]

If you people believe with all your heart and all your might that government is the problem, then why should the American people elect people with such beliefs to serve in government offices?

Wouldn't that be like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something?

The mother of all self-conflicting interests if you will.

Because this is the system that we have!!!!
At least with the GOP the hope is and for the most part it's true that the government will allow people to build businesses so they prosper and realize the American dream.

With the Democrats they will do anything and everything to limit the freedom and will do what they can to control what the people want to do with their lives.

The Republicans when things work like they should encourage business.
The Democrats discourage business and will do all that they can to not have companies
grow and thrive,they want government to grow not companies because they feel that capitalism is evil and the only thing that should be allowed is big government.

 

[Sinatra]

Sinatra, you try that thesis in any university or college in the country, whether lib or con, you will get a failing grade. See, reactionary wingnut lying does not work here, either. Obama as neo-con: how funny!

Actually I participated in a symposium that in part, discussed the topic of neoconservatism within the Clinton and Bush administrations. We had a former Clinton administration member sitting in with us on that night.

And it is not just me saying the Obama administration is rampant with neoconservatism - as the many links provided give testimony to.

The neoconservative movement is highly intellectual, and as such, likely one of the primary reasons you cannot understand its history, nor its current influences and implications.

You will go from this discussion with a better understanding though, albeit with a somewhat bruised ego. That will heal in time - so long as you no longer persist in your self-imposed ignorance...