need some scripture help related to killing when in the army / self defense

[blu]

my soon to be stepson (he is 8 in two weeks) is learning about religion stuff for the first time this year in school and they are doing the ten commandments and he asked me if killing in the army breaks the fifth commandment...

I know that different sects have different versions of that commandment with 'kill' vs 'murder', but I also have heard about 'just war' scriptures and verses relating to when war and self defense are acceptable. Could anyone please point me to these? I am going to explain to him teh difference in outright murdering vs doing it in a war vs to protect your own life, but having some scripture to back it up would be nice as well.

 

[Kalam]

The verb translated as kill in the commandment applies only to "unlawful" killing; the same verb is not used to describe slaughter in warfare. Presumably, the commandment forbids Jews from killing other Jews. Talmudic teachings make it clear that non-Jews can be lawfully killed for even the slightest offense.

 

[blu]

so then are there some rules that define lawful/just warfare? Either way it seems wrong to me that humans are deciding when war /killing in it is acceptable

 

[AllieBaba]

Exactly. The ten commandments tell not to MURDER, not to avoid killing.

Murder is, as has been pointed out, unlawful killing.

Killing during battle is lawful and sanctioned by the state. As are executions.

Not that I support the death penalty, just saying.

 

[Kalam]

The Old Testament places few constraints on warfare; the Israelites slaughtered entire cities quite frequently according to Biblical narratives. I'm assuming that you and your stepson are more interested in a Christian perspective on warfare, though.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. - Matthew 5:38-40

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. - Matthew 26:52​

The message of the Gospels tends to be pacifistic, even submissive. Of course, there are other New Testament passages that could be interpreted to condone warfare (Luke 22:36, etc.), and the entire history of Christianity stands in stark contrast to the message preached in the passages above, so many Christians obviously believe that there can be "just war." Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find many answers in the Bible.

 

[uscitizen]

So as long as the state says it is ok to kill?
Genuinely curious to understand.

 

[Care4all]

Just War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[uscitizen]

Just War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, very intestering.

I think we Americans have blown the Just War concept all to hell. I mean we fought from ambush like savages, instead of standing in opposing rows and shooting each other.

 

[blu]

Just War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thanks for this. seems to raise more questions than answers at the moment though. will have to think on it more. for instance:

the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

wouldn't this mean any use of atomic weapons would invalidate the 'just' part unless they were used on us first? it also seems a very retaliatory set of rules as you can never escalate weapons/range until the other side does it... it also would mean wars would be quite boring if both sides followed the doctrine.

 

[AllieBaba]

So as long as the state says it is ok to kill?
Genuinely curious to understand.

One is illegal, the other isn't.

You can kill someone without murdering them. Say you accidentally back over a crippled guy who has fallen behind your car. You killed him, you didn't murder him.

Or say you shoot someone who comes into your home to rape and kill you, or abduct your child. You've killed him, you haven't murdered him.

It's really not rocket science.

Pacificism is noble. But so is being a warrior for freedom and justice. And they are not committing murder....as long as they are not targeting innocents.

 

[AllieBaba]

Also, the bible tells us to obey the law of the state we live in (regardless of where that is) so LONG as in obeying those laws, we are not DISOBEYING the word of God. You can be a good Christian in any country. But God expects us to die before we take the law of the state above the law of God.

 

[AllieBaba]

Luckily in this country, that rarely happens, because we are not forced to do things against our faith. We may believe abortion is murder, but we are not forced to commit abortion. If we were, we are expected to refuse, even if that means imprisonment or death.

If the state were to tell us to seek out and butcher all Muslims in our midst, and those Muslims were peaceful individuals who had never done a thing against us, then we would be expected to refuse to do so, regardless of what laws had been passed. Because we are adjoured not to murder, and we are told that the one sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin of murdering innocents.

 

[blu]

Also, the bible tells us to obey the law of the state we live in (regardless of where that is) so LONG as in obeying those laws, we are not DISOBEYING the word of God. You can be a good Christian in any country. But God expects us to die before we take the law of the state above the law of God.

hmmm that still doesn't really solve anything... say you lived in country X and the leader wanted to go to war with country Y for a reason that didn't fit the just war doctrine (or whatever the guidelines were for your religion), are you still then covered if you go to war and kill people from country Y? stuff like this:

Catholic Just War Theory and Iraq

makes me think that catholics fighting in iraq are going against their church and actually sinning since they aren't covered by the just war part, so should those people refuse to deploy to iraq?

 

[eagleseven]

I mean we fought from ambush like savages, instead of standing in opposing rows and shooting each other.

A Hollywood myth that won't die. Every major revolutionary battle was decided by regulars/militia fighting in tight formation.

 

[the rev]

Its all about intent. If somebody breaks into your home, your not sure what they will do. Now, does that give you a reason or an excuse to kill that individual? Some state laws say yes, but state law or federal law does not trump what Christ says( assuming that person is a christian). You do what you can to subdue that individual, not use it as a reason to kill them regardless of how you might feel at the moment.

99 percent of wars are started from aggression and hate. Therefore, its murder.Blind Patriotism is a illness that leads to war and aggression. War is started not by the state, but by individuals. If the Nazis refused to carry out Hitlers orders, millions would have been spared. But blind patriotism takes over and it all go's downhill from there.

For every action there is a re-action. Look at Israel and Palestine. That will never end because of pride. One lobs a bomb, than the other lobs two bombs. It seems like talking to one another is the crime in today's foreign policy. What Jesus tries to explain is don't let hate rule your heart. Fight evil with good, not fire with fire. He tries to tell his followers this in Luke 6 27-36.

It all starts with the individual. Each one of us have to make the decision for ourselves and not be influenced by patriotism or the government.

 

[the rev]

Its all about intent. If somebody breaks into your home, your not sure what they will do. Now, does that give you a reason or an excuse to kill that individual? Some state laws say yes, but state law or federal law does not trump what Christ says( assuming that person is a christian). You do what you can to subdue that individual, not use it as a reason to kill them regardless of how you might feel at the moment.

99 percent of wars are started from aggression and hate. Therefore, its murder.Blind Patriotism is a illness that leads to war and aggression. War is started not by the state, but by individuals. If the Nazis refused to carry out Hitlers orders, millions would have been spared. But blind patriotism takes over and it all go's downhill from there.

For every action there is a re-action. Look at Israel and Palestine. That will never end because of pride. One lobs a bomb, than the other lobs two bombs. It seems like talking to one another is the crime in today's foreign policy. What Jesus tries to explain is don't let hate rule your heart. Fight evil with good, not fire with fire. He tries to tell his followers this in Luke 6 27-36.

It all starts with the individual. Each one of us have to make the decision for ourselves and not be influenced by patriotism or the government.