My plan for education

[acludem]

This is how I personally would at least start to try and fix the American system of public education:

1. Fix crumbling buildings - No one should have to go to school in a building that is falling apart. It is impossible to learn in a building that is coming apart all around you.

2. See that every student, especially at the elementary level has had breakfast: This could be done very, very cheaply. I guarantee that if you offer Kelloggs or General Mills or Quaker a nice tax break, they'd be happy to provide cereal servings at a very low cost to schools. Dairies would do the same.

3. Give teachers a pay raise, more respect and higher standards. Right now the average teacher in America makes, on an hourly basis, less than the guy flipping burgers at your local Mickey D's. This is just wrong. You can't recruit good people to a profession when the opportunity to make money is almost nill. Teachers houdl be making a decent wage. They should also be encouraged to continue their education and training through grant programs, and salary incentive plans. Once these are accomplished, then you can raise standards. I firmly believe that teachers want to and try to do well. Give the profession respect and a decent wage and you will begin to draw better people into it.

4. Give control of the classroom back to the teacher. That means if a student is disruptive, the teacher has the right to remove them. That also means reducing class sizes so that teachers can more easily give extra help to a student who may need it, and to have time to deal with disruptive students one on one to try and find out what the problem is.

5. Force parents to be involved in their children's education. Why should a teacher care about your kid's education if you don't? Parents should be legally required be involved. Schools with high parent involvement almost always perform better than schools where parents aren't involved.

That's a start anyway.

acludem

 

[Big D]

What would you do about this little problem?

Illegal aliens’ cost to the American taxpayer is another matter. For example, the children of illegal aliens are currently being educated at American taxpayer expense because of the Supreme Court’s disastrous 1982 Plyler vs. Doe decision. The expense of this is high and disproportionate:

An estimated 1.1 million school-aged illegal immigrants are living in the U.S. [Source: Michael Fix and Jeffrey Passel, “U.S. Immigrants—Trends and Implications for Schools,” The Urban Institute, 2003.]

The U.S.-born children of illegals, technically citizens by virtue of the current misinterpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment, could easily be twice that number (my conservative estimate, based on the overall ratio of children to immigrants—see table.) That’s another 2.2 million.

At $8,745 per pupil (the average annual cost of K-12 public education in the U.S.) the cost of educating illegals and their children comes to $29 billion ($8,745 times 3.3 million children).

ESL, bilingual, and other immigrant-oriented programs can raise per-pupil costs by 15 to 25 percent. That pushes the cost of educating illegals to $36 billion.


To put it another way, illegal aliens are imposing an additional cost amounting to $900 per American child (i.e. child of American-born parents) in the public school system.

What about the total impact of immigration on education? More than one in five K-12 students are immigrants (legal or illegal) or the children of immigrants. We know this thanks to the Current Population Survey, a sort of mini-census taken each month by the Census Bureau. The survey asks respondents if they are immigrants and if their parents were immigrants—legal status unspecified—thus allowing us to isolate the impact of immigration on school enrollment.

The October 2001 Survey shows:

51.355 million children enrolled in K-12

2.299 million foreign born children enrolled in K-12

10.596 million children of foreign born enrolled in K-12

K-12 education now costs $415 billion, or 4% of GDP. Based on the enrollment figures, immigrants must account for at least one-fifth of this amount, or about $85 billion.

More importantly, immigration (legal and illegal) is responsible for virtually all the recent growth in school-age population. We can see this by comparing the CPS reports for October 1998 and October 2001. In that period:

The total number of school age children enrolled in K-12 grew by 621,000

Foreign born children enrolled in K-12 grew by 96,000

Children of foreign born enrolled in K-12 grew by 601,000

http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/educating_illegals.htm

 

[Avatar4321]

its not the governments job to feed the students breakfeast. its parents.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
its not the governments job to feed the students breakfeast. its parents.

ding ding.

 

[Moi]

I absolutely agree that if you expect children to learn you need to have them fed properly and get parental support and involvement.

I do not believe, however, that the government can or should require or compel them.

Parents who care are already involved. Parents who care already provide their children with the essential meals. It has nothing to do with rich or poor. I know plenty of people with enough money to feed their children who think that Fruit Loops are a nutritious breakfast and that soda should be given to children.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Breakfast:No

Parental Involvement is a good idea, yet it is something that cannot be quantified. I don't want government deciding what constitutes positive parental involvement.

Infrastructure. As long as it's not a safety hazard and too hot or too cold. It doesn't matter.

Class size: I believe this factor has been trumpeted overly by the union.

The real problem is the liberals in education who refuse to hold students to standards. For their various addled reasons. i.e. the standards are racially/socially/economically biased and therefore it's wrong to hold people to them.

We also need to make it easier to be a teacher, but the union doesn't want to do this either. If you know something the kids don't and you can explain it, you should be able to teach.

Teaching is a natural function of being a human, education courses are not necessary.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Also, people should be able to opt out of the system and get their money back to educate their children how they see fit.

I just heard the other day we're number 17 on the planet with math and science. That's sad, considereing we spend more than anyone else.

 

[Merlin1047]

Originally posted by acludem
:

1. Fix crumbling buildings - It is impossible to learn in a building that is coming apart all around you.

2. See that every student, especially at the elementary level has had breakfast:

3. Give teachers a pay raise,

4. Give control of the classroom back to the teacher.

5. Force parents to be involved in their children's education.

Your solutions are nothing new. They are the same tired mantras liberals have been chanting for the last thirty years. The problem many libs seem to have is the inability to think outside the box which they themselves have designed. Liberal solutions ALWAYS involve more government control and your's are no exception. What is it with you guys that you seem to feel that you need to use government as a tool to run the lives of everyone in this country?

Okay, let's look at item 1: "Crumbling"? Well, if it is, by all means let's fix it. But your statement is too vague. How many schools are "crumbling"? If they are, they're a safety hazard and they should be closed. But after some research, I can't come up with any statistics that show this to be a problem. Your assertion that students cannot learn in a substandard facility is patently false. Students can learn in a tent if they are motivated and if they have a teacher capable of teaching.

Item 2: More government. Why don't we just have parents hand their children over to the public schools at age six and let the government feed them and raise them to age 18? A multitude of welfare assistance programs are available to families too poor to feed their children. PARENTS are responsible to see their children are fed. Government should step in only when it becomes obvious that parents are neglecting their offspring.

Item 3: Throwing more money at the problem. The gross exaggeration you included regarding teachers making less than burger flippers is simply NEA math. They take the starting salary of a new teacher working for 8 - 9 months and compare it to the salary of a minimum wage worker working 8 hours a day all year long. Yes, a competitive wage is important, but without reforms to hold teachers accountable, higher wages simply serve to motivate incompetent teachers to stay on the job that much longer.

Item 4: I almost fell out of my chair when I read this one. This statement, coming from someone with the nic of "acludem" is nothing short of hilarious. Good luck with this one. Let a teacher so much as say "boo" to some junior criminal in a classroom of a public school and a phalanx of aclu shysters will descend on that school to decry the abuse of the poor student's "rights". How do you think we have managed to get into this godawful mess that we currently enjoy? Two acronyms - ACLU and NAACP. The ACLU and the courts have tied teachers' hands regarding discipline. The NAACP ala Jesse Jackson, has proclaimed exams to be "racist" and that is largely how we have arrived at the social promotion standards that exist today.

Item 5: And you libs have the balls to accuse conservatives of being fascists - HA!!!! Anyway, your premise doesn't wash with lib philisophy. Many schools are considering banning homework because the idiots who administer these institutions believe that students whose parents assist them with their school work have an "unfair" advantage over those students whose parents do not. When did school become a competitive event? I have been laboring under the misconception that students should learn the absolute maximum possible during their school years.

The public school system is so corrupted by liberal adminstrators, the NEA, NAACP and ACLU that it is beyond redemption in its current form. The condition of public education is analagous to a gangrenous extremity. It must be amputated if the body is to be saved.

SCHOOL VOUCHERS - that phrase abhorent to libs and the NEA is the way to save our education system. Private schools are currently proliferating as many parents see their children's education withering in the public school system. Private schools can impose rules like school uniforms and no students driving to school. Private schools can impose discipline by ejecting those students whose conduct is unacceptable. Private schools will have to pay their teachers a competitive wage in order to attract the best faculty. Private schools will have to produce what they claim or they will go out of business.

That is not to say that public schools should be completely abandoned. They should become quasi disciplinary institutions for incorrigible students who have been expelled from private schools. The emphasis in public schools should be on discipline and education. The environment in public shools should resemble "boot camp". Public schools should be the last stop before prison for those unwilling to conduct themselves responsibly.

So therein lies the fundamental philosophical difference between you libs and us conservatives. Libs always see more government as the first and last resort to any problem. Conservatives have faith in their fellow citizens and an unshakeable belief that the private sector at its worst produces better solutions than government at its best.

 

[Avatar4321]

Another point on the Breakfeast. Arent liberals attacking Americans for being too fat already? How is giving them more food going to fix the obesity problem?

 

[Big D]

In l950, American schools were among the best in the world. However, vocal elements within our society demanded that the public schools take on a social engineering role as well as an educational one. Violent disruptions of American education were ordered by the Supreme Court for the purpose of breaking down racial barriers. For 30 years, American schools have diverted enormous resources into forced integration, quotas, and bussing operations. (Few people realize how expensive bussing is. Annual cost may run into tens of billions of dollars. In l990 California alone was spending $500 million per year on integration. Many school districts spend a quarter or more of their budgets on transportation. In Milwaukee alone and in a single school year, 30,000 staff hours were diverted into calculating the race of students to attend the various schools.) The results? Today's students rank at the very bottom worldwide in science and math, some 40% of American adults are functionally illiterate, and standardized test scores have declined steadily for both Whites and Blacks. Today the average White still scores 200 points higher on the combined SAT than the average Black. Americans spend more on education than any other country in the world and have the worst results. Massive White flight to escape racial zoning has reduced the tax base of every major American city. In l983, after nearly two generations of racial experimentation to promote equality, the research arm of the Dept. of Education could not produce a single study that showed Black children were learning appreciably better after desegregation.

 

[Big D]

Acludem, Did you know this teacher?

http://www.wpmi.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=DF803DB9-CDCB-4A24-8C0D-851EAD80ACC7

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by Big D
Acludem, Did you know this teacher?

http://www.wpmi.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=DF803DB9-CDCB-4A24-8C0D-851EAD80ACC7

What in the hell does this have to do with fixing public education? I know you are against racial mixing but you are way off topic here.

 

[mattskramer]

Originally posted by pegwinn
What in the hell does this have to do with fixing public education? I know you are against racial mixing but you are way off topic here.

I don't know what point he was trying to make or what he was implying with the article (Sample size of 1). Was it that teachers get killed by their partners? Was it that interracial couples kill each other? Oh well.

 

[OCA]

Lol fellas its just another chance for Big D to post something racist. To him she's automatically a liberal or "mudshark" as these guys so eloquently put things because she was dating a Black. If you think you will ever get anything rational in his own original words don't hold you breath.

 

[pegwinn]

Since ACLUDEM started the thread I will first address some of his points. Infrastructure must be fixed if it is unsafe. As far as learning in a building coming down about you, hey, you learn to duck and run right. Seriously, Marines learn in the woods under tents all the time. Next, was breakfast. Uh No. That's Mom-N-Pop. If they cannot feed lil junior then the school can offer breakfast. Most do. Some are real smart and have you sign up for it so there isn't too much wastage. Pay raise, respect and higher standards. Yup. All for it. Would like to see proof of Mickey D flippers making more. Maybe we hold school under the golden arches. Control of the class is the pivot point. You want to give control "back" to the teacher. Does that mean that teachers can spank students? With paddles? You said teachers should have the right to remove disruptive students. Duh. They've always had that right. It's about the only control the teacher has any longer. Parental involvement has always been key to success. That's why privatization and vouchers are so popular. The Parents who give a damn are already in the mix. Studies show that kids in public schools with heavy parental involvement do better as well.

Now: Lets look at how to set up public education so that it is more likely to succeed. First we need to make some assumptions.
First Assumption: Government will still be involved. We will attempt to shift the involvement to the lowest possible level.
Second Assumption: The new system will be standards based. Meaning that you will have to prove mastery of each standard before advancement.
Third Assumption: We will test and pay teachers in accordance with their abilities. Meaning we tie it to student performance. Oh yeah, the teach must be a Subject Matter Expert. That doesn't mean they need a teaching degree. It means that they must have the ability to impart knowledge, and know the subject. More on that later.

NOW TO BUSINESS:
STEP ONE: Determine the Final Desired Results of a basic education. This will be tough. Sit down and list exactly what an 18 y/o must be able to after 12 or so years of education. Don't worry about where in the 12 years it'll be taught, just list them. This list may number in the thousands. Here's 5 just for starters:
The student will recite the standard 26 letter English alphabet without error, without the aid of references or other persons assistance from memory within 1 minute.
The student will recite the standard multiplication tables up to 12 multiplied by 12 without the aid of references or other persons assistance from memory within 5 minutes.
The student will recite the preamble to the constitution of the United States without the aid of references or other persons assistance from memory within 3 minutes.
The student will write an essay on a major historical event of United States history, citing news and societal trends of the time and presenting both pro and con views as required, taking and defending a position during discussion with a panel of students, parents, teachers, and administration.
The student will balance a standard personal checkbook without error, with the aid of the appropriate bank statement and written directions within 15 minutes.

Notice that each Terminal Learning Objective contains three elements.
A Task: Short concise statement of what you must accomplish. Each is results oriented.
Conditions: Anything that adds to or takes away from the students ability to accomplish the results. Note they specify if the student is on their own, or may receive help.
Standards: How good does it have to be. Note the phrase "without error" and the time compliance period.
STEP TWO: Determine which knowledge, skills, and abilities must be had before you can successfully complete the task. For example, number one requires that the student be able to: Sit quietly and listen to teachers, recite by rote with the rest of the class over and over. Number three requires that the student be able to read. Once all the KSA's are in place, make sure that they should not in fact be a terminal learning objective. Hint: Look at the reading thing. Those that need to be TLO's will be moved up.
STEP THREE: Order the TLO's from easiest to hardest. This ensures a building block approach. It will naturally focus on rote learning, and step-by-step process in the early years. Face it, there is no possible free thinking with arithmetic. A big complaint today is that education focuses more on touchy-feely social stuff than knowledge. This focuses on knowledge until the student is potentially old enough to think for itself without undue influence.
STEP FOUR: Let learning occur. Grade the student by mastery/non-mastery testing. Standardized tests can be used to gauge progress over a spectrum. When the student has documented completion of all, not 90 percent, of the TLO's he/she is considered educated.

I tried to keep it short and simplistic. Believe me I could've just kept going on. Let the flames begin.

 

[mattskramer]

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/PubEdDoomed1.html

The teacher-pupil ratio is often cited as a "bottom-line" measurement of educational excellence. In 1955, there were 30.2 students for each teacher in the public elementary schools, and 20.9 for each teacher in the secondary schools. By 1980, there were 20.3 students per teacher in the elementary schools, and 16.8 in the secondary schools. In 1992, the ranks of teachers had swelled even further, and there were an average of 19 and 14.6 students per teacher in the elementary and secondary schools, respectively. For all public schools combined, the teacher-pupil ratio dropped from 26.9 to 17.2. So why is everyone worried about "educational neglect"?

The problem of the so-called "underpaid teacher" is as laughable as the idea that there aren't enough. In inflation-adjusted, 1992 dollars, the average public school teacher's salary went from $23,850 in 1960 to $34,934 in 1992. Just think--an average salary of about $35,000 for nine to ten months work. In New England, teacher salaries rose an incredible 43.6 percent in the 1980s. Compare this to the difficulty so many other American workers have merely trying to keep up with the cost of living.

 

[Merlin1047]

Originally posted by pegwinn

Notice that each Terminal Learning Objective contains three elements.
A Task: Short concise statement of what you must accomplish. Each is results oriented.
Conditions: Anything that adds to or takes away from the students ability to accomplish the results. Note they specify if the student is on their own, or may receive help.
Standards: How good does it have to be. Note the phrase "without error" and the time compliance period.

Let the flames begin.

Pegwinn, do you keep a copy of TRADOC reg 350-70 under your pillow? : Seriously, the ASAT approach is adequate for training and testing tasks which can be easily quantified such as disassembling weapons, servicing vehicles, recognizing aircraft and such.

But how do you suggest we break down Shakespeare into task, condition and standard? How about music? When the task is simply the acquisition of knowledge, this approach is not only lacking, it actually gets in the way of effective education. I've been wrestling with it for the last 6 years at the Army's helicopter flight school and while it works to some degree, more often it just gives us fits.

Regarding the flaming invitation, well it's late and I'm really not in the mood. Can I have a rain check on that?

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by Merlin1047 Pegwinn, do you keep a copy of TRADOC reg 350-70 under your pillow? : Seriously, the ASAT approach is adequate for training and testing tasks which can be easily quantified such as disassembling weapons, servicing vehicles, recognizing aircraft and such.

Oh no, I do have a copy of MCO 1533.3 though :

Originally posted by Merlin1047
But how do you suggest we break down Shakespeare into task, condition and standard? How about music? When the task is simply the acquisition of knowledge, this approach is not only lacking, it actually gets in the way of effective education. I've been wrestling with it for the last 6 years at the Army's helicopter flight school and while it works to some degree, more often it just gives us fits.

I don't. I believe that from 6-18 years of age our public education should build a literate and functional citizen. He should be able to look for and find an entry level job. He should be able to balance his checkbook. He should be able to read an electric bill. He should be able to actually read. He should be able to perform enough math to function. I think that the non-quantifiable stuff should be taught at college, at his/her expense. Since you and I share a military background apparently then try this on for size. 6-18 public education is Boot Camp / Recruit Training / Basic Training. College is the AIT or MOS School. I am looking for a results oriented education.

Originally posted by Merlin1047 Regarding the flaming invitation, well it's late and I'm really not in the mood. Can I have a rain check on that?

I don't think you would've waited. So far, comparing posts, we've been remarkably agreeable. I guess we could sit, drink, and tell stories. :beer

 

[TN_Independent]

Originally posted by acludem
This is how I personally would at least start to try and fix the American system of public education:

1. Fix crumbling buildings - No one should have to go to school in a building that is falling apart. It is impossible to learn in a building that is coming apart all around you.

The facility is not nearly as important as other factors.

2. See that every student, especially at the elementary level has had breakfast: This could be done very, very cheaply. I guarantee that if you offer Kelloggs or General Mills or Quaker a nice tax break, they'd be happy to provide cereal servings at a very low cost to schools. Dairies would do the same.

Yeah, I know, it is not the government's job to feed our children. I also know that many kids don't get fed by their parents at home. It makes it less likely that they'll learn, and for that reason I'd guarantee that schools provided free breakfast and lunch to all students. Call me liberal if you want, but a student with a full belly learns more.

3. Give teachers a pay raise, more respect and higher standards. Right now the average teacher in America makes, on an hourly basis, less than the guy flipping burgers at your local Mickey D's. This is just wrong. You can't recruit good people to a profession when the opportunity to make money is almost nill. Teachers houdl be making a decent wage. They should also be encouraged to continue their education and training through grant programs, and salary incentive plans. Once these are accomplished, then you can raise standards. I firmly believe that teachers want to and try to do well. Give the profession respect and a decent wage and you will begin to draw better people into it.

OK, the McD's argument is not accurate. Teachers don't make enough, in my opinion, but teacher pay raises is a catch-22. Many taxpayers don't want raises until there is improvement in educational quality, but you can't get educational quality without productive teachers. Many students who would make great teachers simply don't consider the field because of the pay issue. Fact!
I don't have the answer to this. I am all for incentive based pay if someone could figure a way to do it, fairly and adquately. Believe me, it ain't as easy as many would have it sound.

4. Give control of the classroom back to the teacher. That means if a student is disruptive, the teacher has the right to remove them. That also means reducing class sizes so that teachers can more easily give extra help to a student who may need it, and to have time to deal with disruptive students one on one to try and find out what the problem is.

Amen! Including pass/fail decisions. Competency based tests would be a big help in that department, also.
Anyone who doesn't believe that lower teacher/student ratios is beneficial simply doesn't understand teaching. If I have a classroom of 20 students I am a much better teacher than if I have a classroom of 25 students. It is simply a matter of being able to give more individualized instruction.

5. Force parents to be involved in their children's education. Why should a teacher care about your kid's education if you don't? Parents should be legally required be involved. Schools with high parent involvement almost always perform better than schools where parents aren't involved.

Impossible. I wish it were that easy.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Plus, the teachers and the administrators need to actually care about standards. An outlook which considers standards "unfair" is killing our nation.